mrpink 0 Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 I first came across this in the Emilio Audissino book and been fascinated by it since... Audissino repeatedly claims that JW uses a minor chord with the "7th on the bottom" to denote the bad guys (especially Nazis!) but is it a minor 7th or major 7th? I asked Conrad Pope on Facebook and he said the former (ie. E natural, F, Ab, C). He pointed me towards the Himalayan bar scene in ROTLA for an example. Allegedly, it's something JW learned from Max Steiner... Are there any other places this can be found in JW scores? Any found in the signature edition scores? I really want to know how this chord gets orchestrated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1977 1,743 Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 If it's what I'm thinking of, I think there's an example in Raptors in the Kitchen. Edit: No, I'm thinking of the decending figure at the start of The Basket Chase (extended not OST) just before the scherzo begins, which sounds a bit like the four note predator motif from JP (particularly the slow reading on double basses in RITK). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Five Tones 302 Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 Cmin over* B natural *and under the B natural in the high tremolo strings Loert 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Parker 3,040 Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 Maybe not entirely what you mean, as it's not in the bass but the bottomof the chord, but there's a very fun and straightforward version of this in Visitor in San Diego Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loert 2,511 Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 2 hours ago, mrpink said: Audissino repeatedly claims that JW uses a minor chord with the "7th on the bottom" to denote the bad guys (especially Nazis!) but is it a minor 7th or major 7th? Well it's certainly a major 7th above the root. The chord itself is the minor major seventh chord, the version with the 7th in the bottom is the same chord, 3rd inversion. The Five Tones 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kühni 485 Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 2 minutes ago, Kühni said: If I weren't a quarter down a bottle of Apricot Liqueur, I would completely get what you're talking about. I'll get back to you... Blech! You are gonna have one helluva hangover drinking that sticky sweet stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kühni 485 Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig 1,120 Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 3 hours ago, mrpink said: I first came across this in the Emilio Audissino book and been fascinated by it since... Audissino repeatedly claims that JW uses a minor chord with the "7th on the bottom" to denote the bad guys (especially Nazis!) but is it a minor 7th or major 7th? I asked Conrad Pope on Facebook and he said the former (ie. E natural, F, Ab, C). He pointed me towards the Himalayan bar scene in ROTLA for an example. Allegedly, it's something JW learned from Max Steiner... Are there any other places this can be found in JW scores? Any found in the signature edition scores? I really want to know how this chord gets orchestrated. We had a discussion about this very thing a number of years ago now and found some examples in The Last Crusade rather than ROTLA, as was implied by the editing of the Nazi entrance over the part of the interview where Williams was talking about "7th on the bottom". Though the examples we found were not the minor-major 7th, but dominant 7ths. If Johnny really meant the former, then we still don't know what he's talking about for Indy scores. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kühni 485 Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pellaeon 593 Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 C-E-G-B♭ is a major-minor 7th because of the major 3rd (C-E) and the minor 7th (C-B♭) Not sure where you got the D. Not sure if that addresses your question at all. This combination of tones would be analyzed as a seventh and not a “downward second” regardless of inversion. But inversion does “even matter” (as much as any of this matters). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karelm 2,913 Posted December 5, 2019 Share Posted December 5, 2019 10 hours ago, mrpink said: I first came across this in the Emilio Audissino book and been fascinated by it since... Audissino repeatedly claims that JW uses a minor chord with the "7th on the bottom" to denote the bad guys (especially Nazis!) but is it a minor 7th or major 7th? I asked Conrad Pope on Facebook and he said the former (ie. E natural, F, Ab, C). He pointed me towards the Himalayan bar scene in ROTLA for an example. Allegedly, it's something JW learned from Max Steiner... Are there any other places this can be found in JW scores? Any found in the signature edition scores? I really want to know how this chord gets orchestrated. I think you are missing the point. In jazz voicing, the point is to soften the dissonance. All JW is saying is that he is emphasizing the dissonance for bad characters. That makes sense for simple characterizations. Typical jazz voicing will separate the 7th. JW is emphasizing it for villainous characters which puts the E natural next to the F emphasizing the minor second dissonance. The evil character. That is all he was saying. Nothing mystical here. Very basic stuff. He is saying "don't make the villains sound pretty" and nothing else. Fabulin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom 4,658 Posted December 5, 2019 Share Posted December 5, 2019 3 minutes ago, karelm said: I think you are missing the point. In jazz voicing, the point is to soften the dissonance. All JW is saying is that he is emphasizing the dissonance for bad characters. That makes sense for simple characterizations. Typical jazz voicing will separate the 7th. JW is emphasizing it for villainous characters which puts the E natural next to the F emphasizing the minor second dissonance. The evil character. That is all he was saying. Nothing mystical here. Very basic stuff. For whatever reason, your final analysis reminds me of Nimoy's last line: karelm and Pieter Boelen 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Parker 3,040 Posted December 5, 2019 Share Posted December 5, 2019 7 hours ago, Kühni said: which direction do I have to think with (major/minor) sevenths? Can't I just call them "downwards" minor/major seconds (does inversion figure into this)? Like Pallaeon I'm a little confused by your question. In the key of C, the (major) 7 would be B... I'm not sure why you would want to refer it as a downward minor second (?), especially if it puts you at risk of thinking of the actual second scale degree by mistake (D in the case of C). Is there a certain organizational hurdle you're trying to get through? 7 hours ago, Pellaeon said: Not sure where you got the D. Oh we know where he got the D! Sharkissimo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karelm 2,913 Posted December 5, 2019 Share Posted December 5, 2019 13 hours ago, Tom said: For whatever reason, your final analysis reminds me of Nimoy's last line: That's high praise. The joy of that scene is of course Spock is known for his impeccable logic and Spock and Nimoy are one and the same except here we discover Nimoy to be a logical imbecilic. Tom 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kühni 485 Posted December 5, 2019 Share Posted December 5, 2019 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Five Tones 302 Posted December 6, 2019 Share Posted December 6, 2019 "7th on the Bottom: Interpreting the Utterances of Holy Mystic John Towner Williams," by J.W. Fan, as read by Clive Revill Ian McDiarmid "This audio book is a wonderful addition to our great repertoire of hermeneutical texts, though I hope there'll be an opportunity to expand on the themes, have some closure and make it truly frickin' awesome, if I can put it that way" – Johnny Williams Ludwig 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
filmusicfan 24 Posted December 15, 2019 Share Posted December 15, 2019 The horn chords in "Dennis Steals the Embryos" are minor with major seventh on the bottom. They're mixed in with that first chord: a Bb min/maj ninth. The Bb is in the bass (not shown below). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naïve Old Fart 9,528 Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 7th on the bottom? You're describing Arsenal, aren't you? Fabulin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Disco Stu 15,495 Posted July 7, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted July 7, 2020 I always feel like an ignorant moron when I engage with the music theory side of JWFan, but here goes. This is sort of related to this thread. In the final grand chord of the Raiders March "B Theme", I see that the brass section has two C major seventh chords stacked on top of each other, both using the third inversion with "the seventh on the bottom". I would expect my ears to be able to at least subtly detect that dissonance of the minor second intervals between the Bs and Cs. But it always sounds like a normal C major chord to me. I don't really have a question here, I'm just not sure why. The chord is held here from 1:14 - 1:17. Falstaft, Fabulin and SteveMc 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montre 79 Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 In general, Williams loves to add the 7th on the bottom, both in major and minor chords, all over his scores, in all sorts of contexts. Often it is just to add the the coloration of a chord. So it’s not so straightforward that you can boil it down to “he means evil when he uses it”. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Nick Parker 3,040 Posted July 7, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted July 7, 2020 34 minutes ago, Disco Stu said: I always feel like an ignorant moron when I engage with the music theory side of JWFan, but here goes. This is sort of related to this thread. In the final grand chord of the Raiders March "B Theme", I see that the brass section has two C major seventh chords stacked on top of each other, both using the third inversion with "the seventh on the bottom". I would expect my ears to be able to at least subtly detect that dissonance of the minor second intervals between the Bs and Cs. But it always sounds like a normal C major chord to me. I don't really have a question here, I'm just not sure why. The chord is held here from 1:14 - 1:17. Maybe it's because he uses it as a resolution of the phrase? I actually really love how he uses the Cmaj7 there to finish the bridge, but then also to transition back to the A section that starts on a ... C chord. It's not something you hear too often, using an extension of the tonic to lead into the tonic, but it works so well here. As for hearing that...hmmm, I guess I could ask if you hear the difference of tension in it vs. the relative simplicity of the chord to follow in the A section. It also reminds me of how he ends a phrase of Flying from ET on a major 7 chord (I won't say which one). Maybe you could listen to that and see if you can hear the correlation? SteveMc, Falstaft and Loert 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabulin 3,511 Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 1 hour ago, Disco Stu said: In the final grand chord of the Raiders March "B Theme", I see that the brass section has two C major seventh chords stacked on top of each other, both using the third inversion with "the seventh on the bottom". I would expect my ears to be able to at least subtly detect that dissonance of the minor second intervals between the Bs and Cs. But it always sounds like a normal C major chord to me. I don't really have a question here, I'm just not sure why. 7th at the bottom and masked dissonance at the same time? We only lack a triplet Sadly the only thing I can offer you is the comfort that there is at least one "moron" more ignorant than you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Falstaft 2,132 Posted July 7, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted July 7, 2020 1 hour ago, Disco Stu said: I would expect my ears to be able to at least subtly detect that dissonance of the minor second intervals between the Bs and Cs. But it always sounds like a normal C major chord to me. I don't really have a question here, I'm just not sure why. Great question! Another part of the explanation is that the seventh isn't really "at the bottom," since timpani, cellos, & basses are all pounding away at the root of the chord at the same time as the trombones are playing that B against C semitone: So while the brass choir may be giving you that 3rd inversion 7th chord impression on the page, the aural gestalt is still of a root position major chord with an internal dissonance. If you can focus your ear on that midrange portion of the chord, maybe by humming or playing a B3 at the same time, you'll be able to sense the dissonance a little more clearly, I think. I wonder if, when Williams made that well-scrutinized remark about 7ths on the bottom, he had distinct instrumental choirs, rather than actual sounding bass note of the whole orchestra, in mind. That's would be much more how an arranger, especially a jazz arranger with a sense of various drop voicings & such, would conceptualize chordal inversion. SteveMc, Ludwig, Fabulin and 2 others 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Parker 3,040 Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 7 minutes ago, Falstaft said: wonder if, when Williams made that well-scrutinized remark about 7ths on the bottom, he distinct had instrumental choirs, rather than actual sounding bass note of the whole orchestra, in mind. That's would be much more how an arranger, especially a jazz arranger with a sense of various drop voicings & such, would conceptualize inversion. It would definitely line up with how he writes, especially for these big series like Indiana Jones and Star Wars. Falstaft 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Ludwig 1,120 Posted July 7, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted July 7, 2020 1 hour ago, Disco Stu said: I would expect my ears to be able to at least subtly detect that dissonance of the minor second intervals between the Bs and Cs. But it always sounds like a normal C major chord to me. I don't really have a question here, I'm just not sure why. My guess is that, as @Falstaft points out, the note is at the bottom of the instrumental choir. What lies on top of it is the plain C major triad in root position, something that's hammered into students of classical ear-training studies. This kind of chord - the major 7th - really comes more out of jazz. It's quite uncommon in classical music, so much so that it's not a part of our ear-training studies, where, in terms of 7th chords, we instead focus on dominant 7ths, diminished 7ths, half-diminished 7ths, and minor 7ths. When I taught this stuff, I'm sure if I gave an ear test on this chord, even many top students would say was a plain C major chord, not because there's something wrong with their ears, but because of their training and what they "expect" to hear based on what they're taught. So I'm sure you're not alone! I don't really have a solution except to say try playing it at the piano, both with and without the 7th and after a while, you'll develop that intangible "feel" for the major 7th chord and be able to recognize it even if you don't know which notes are where. 25 minutes ago, Falstaft said: I wonder if, when Williams made that well-scrutinized remark about 7ths on the bottom, he distinct had instrumental choirs, rather than actual sounding bass note of the whole orchestra, in mind. That's would be much more how an arranger, especially a jazz arranger with a sense of various drop voicings & such, would conceptualize chordal inversion. Aha! That makes a lot of sense, @Falstaft. I'd bet good money that's what he meant. Look @Disco Stu, you've helped us (probably) solve an age-old riddle in Williams lore! Disco Stu, Falstaft, Fabulin and 1 other 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,075 Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 Interesting! I guess the ultimate proof would be to find several examples from Steiner's music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 20 minutes ago, Ludwig said: When I taught this stuff, I'm sure if I gave an ear test on this chord, even many top students would say was a plain C major chord, not because there's something wrong with their ears, but because of their training and what they "expect" to hear based on what they're taught. So I'm sure you're not alone! I also notice clicking around random Youtube videos of people playing the Raiders March on piano, that a lot of people play it as a standard C Major triad. Like this guy! SteveMc 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loert 2,511 Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 3 hours ago, Disco Stu said: I would expect my ears to be able to at least subtly detect that dissonance of the minor second intervals between the Bs and Cs. But it always sounds like a normal C major chord to me. I don't really have a question here, I'm just not sure why. I pretty much agree with @Falstaft. If the bass were taken away, I guarantee you would be able to hear the B in the brass much better. Actually, it's strange...every time I listen to the excerpt you posted, the B seems to be getting louder! Disco Stu 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Parker 3,040 Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 It's a Nazi dog whistle! crlbrg and Fabulin 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Falstaft 2,132 Posted July 7, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted July 7, 2020 You know, it occurs to me that Williams never actually said "chordal seventh!" Part of our collective confusion may stem from misremembering, and the general truthiness of the idea that old-fashioned Steineresque villain writing involved 4/2-inverted chords. The actual quote from the interview I believe we're all referring to makes mention of seventh scale degree. "We have the Nazis, you know, and the orchestra hits these 1940s dramatic chords, you know, with the seventh degree of the scale on the bottom. Which is kind of like an old signal of some evil militaristic doer." Seventh scale degree (^7) refers to a specific note within the governing scale (in solfege, ti or te; leading tone or subtonic in functional lingo). It's not the same as particular configuration of a chord. I'm not sure where this slight mischaracterization came from, that he's talking strictly about 3rd inversion seventh chords. It may certainly be that this implies inverted chordal sevenths, if we assume Williams is thinking like a modern jazz improvisationalist, where local chord is often conceptually merged with "scale." And, of course, if we're restricting ourselves to tonic chords, than a tonic harmony with the chordal seventh in the bass is the same as a tonic chord with the seventh scale degree in the bass. I almost wonder if what he was referring to is instead the even more emblematic way of depicting villainy for Williams and (Classical) Hollywood in general, of having the minor tonic locally flanked by the flattened minor submediant, but specifically in first inversion. So Cm => Abm/Cb => Cm. In which case we can forgive Williams for playing a little fast and loose with enharmonic names (though most musicians would call that Cb a B, and not be totally wrong since it does behave as much like a leading tone as it does an inflected form of the tonic degree). Theoretical minutiae aside, that is the progression actually heard in the interview clip exactly when he is talking (Abm => Em/G, from the end of Raiders 10m5 "German Sub"). Then the clip moves to that sequence from 4m1 that we know, despite being characteristic, does not feature any 7ths in the bottom. That's the Vader progression -- or Tarnhelm progression if you prefer Wagner. [And LP(m) for all you neo-Riemannians]. It's an extremely well-theorized little harmonic topic that one can find countless examples of in Williams and other film composers. Sharkissimo, crlbrg, Ludwig and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karelm 2,913 Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 19 hours ago, Falstaft said: Great question! Another part of the explanation is that the seventh isn't really "at the bottom," since timpani, cellos, & basses are all pounding away at the root of the chord at the same time as the trombones are playing that B against C semitone: So while the brass choir may be giving you that 3rd inversion 7th chord impression on the page, the aural gestalt is still of a root position major chord with an internal dissonance. If you can focus your ear on that midrange portion of the chord, maybe by humming or playing a B3 at the same time, you'll be able to sense the dissonance a little more clearly, I think. I wonder if, when Williams made that well-scrutinized remark about 7ths on the bottom, he had distinct instrumental choirs, rather than actual sounding bass note of the whole orchestra, in mind. That's would be much more how an arranger, especially a jazz arranger with a sense of various drop voicings & such, would conceptualize chordal inversion. Also important is context. Our ears can make sense of dissonance depending on how we get there and what the pedal (C in low strings) is doing because that implies a harmony. Ludwig 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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