The Rise of Skywalker The Rise of Skywalker - COMPLETE SCORE Discussion - SPOILERS ALLOWED!

[Jay 37,267]

AND, the choir work in this score is quite varied, all kinds of different approaches are used

[Nick Parker 3,040]

6 hours ago, Ludwig said:

Anyway, the progression could be called a minor chord to a minor(add b6). It usually has a melody in minor of scale degrees 5-6, often followed by a drop to scale degree 2 (sometimes 3). Here's where it appears. Thoughts?

 

It's something I noticed a couple years ago--I made a post about it sometime earlier this year, don't remember where--and truth be told it was something that disappointed me about the first two scores. Speaking specifically about the chord progression, it's been a part of the Williams playbook for decades, of course--you can hear it anywhere from Empire Strikes Back to Tintin--but I felt that the first two scores were so light on the usual harmonic delights I'm used to from Williams, that this repeated instance of it stuck out to me and almost sounded...commodified, if that makes sense.

[Ludwig 1,120]

37 minutes ago, Nick Parker said:

It's something I noticed a couple years ago--I made a post about it sometime earlier this year, don't remember where--and truth be told it was something that disappointed me about the first two scores. Speaking specifically about the chord progression, it's been a part of the Williams playbook for decades, of course--you can hear it anywhere from Empire Strikes Back to Tintin--but I felt that the first two scores were so light on the usual harmonic delights I'm used to from Williams, that this repeated instance of it stuck out to me and almost sounded...commodified, if that makes sense.

 

Well, sure it can be heard in many of his scores, a great example being that moment in the closing act of ESB:

 

I'm guessing that what you mean by commodified is that you feel it's been trivialized due to overuse and by filling more of the underscore than before. The thing is, he never used it very much before, and now in TROS, it crops up at the main turning points. So rather than hear as something a tad overtired, I hear it as an attempt to unify a score where that's a huge challenge going in because 1) the film itself kind of lacks a unifying narrative idea that holds it all together, and 2) being the last film in the saga, Williams knows he'll be asked to stuff in as many of the old leitmotifs as possible. And that's on top of being asked to write several new themes to fit in somewhere as well. So it makes sense to me that Williams would seek out a way to musically bring the score together.

 

I know what you mean about harmonic delights, but I suppose I like hearing how Williams reworks ideas into new harmonic surroundings, new instrumentations, new melodic frameworks, new scales, new rhythms, new dramatic arcs, and new narrative meanings as well. So to me it's a different kind of delight - a delight in variation, something Williams seems increasingly interested in in his later years.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

56 minutes ago, Ludwig said:

 

Well, sure it can be heard in many of his scores, a great example being that moment in the closing act of ESB:

 

I'm guessing that what you mean by commodified is that you feel it's been trivialized due to overuse and by filling more of the underscore than before. The thing is, he never used it very much before, and now in TROS, it crops up at the main turning points. So rather than hear as something a tad overtired, I hear it as an attempt to unify a score where that's a huge challenge going in because 1) the film itself kind of lacks a unifying narrative idea that holds it all together, and 2) being the last film in the saga, Williams knows he'll be asked to stuff in as many of the old leitmotifs as possible. And that's on top of being asked to write several new themes to fit in somewhere as well. So it makes sense to me that Williams would seek out a way to musically bring the score together.

 

I know what you mean about harmonic delights, but I suppose I like hearing how Williams reworks ideas into new harmonic surroundings, new instrumentations, new melodic frameworks, new scales, new rhythms, new dramatic arcs, and new narrative meanings as well. So to me it's a different kind of delight - a delight in variation, something Williams seems increasingly interested in in his later years.

 

Actually I feel like this newest score is much more robust than the last two in many regards, including the harmonies on display. To clarify on what I meant by commodified, I felt like the language used in the previous two was more simplistic than what I'm used to in any given Williams work, including that of contemporaneous scores such as BFG and The Post. You can still tell it's Williams, but it sounds like a muted watermark version of him. 

 

In this simpler harmonic landscape that I've perceived, the chord progression you point out comes off as many of the notable times Williams threw in that juicy dissonance of his, and the repeated instances of it, coupled by the more streamlined writing, particularly in "background" cues, lead me to feel it was "commodified". Like is this the extent of "non filmic" dissonance Williams wants to throw in these scores?

 

 

[Ludwig 1,120]

Loving these crunchy chords after Ben Solo's death with the brass chorale (what @Falstaft (hiatus til TROS) lists as "Ben Solo's Redemption" in his magnificent catalogue). The first chord of bars 1, 3, and 4 I hear as polychord constructions of DM / Eb5. 

 

 

 

Actually, the cue reminds me of "Voluntary Retirement" from Thomas Newman's Skyfall, which gives a similar brass chorale texture for Bond's "funeral". Not the same chords, but there's something similar about combining chords a semitone apart (successively in Newman, simultaneously in Williams).

[The Illustrious Jerry 3,356]

Just came back from my second viewing, which wasn't voluntary. I promised someone I'd go with them before the film came out.

 

Anyways, I didn't care for the film so I really buckled down and listened for the score. Here are my discoveries/thoughts. There is probably some old news in here, but I'm not reading through 16 pages right now to cross reference.

 

The best, or at least most audible, unreleased music, as far as I can tell, is when:

- Rey runs the training course (Rey's theme does summersaults- best unreleased cue)

- Kylo Ren's helmet is reforged (KOR motif and other stuff)

- The Knights of Ren appear on Pasaana (KOR motif and timpani)

- Lando arrives with reinforcements (Don't quite know what the fuss is all about with this one. It's a good cue but hardly jaw dropping, and it would certainly disturb the coherence of the OST.)

 

Two source cues at least, likely both by Lin-Manuel Miranda:

- Pasaana festival

- Oma Tres' bar

 

There were a lot of tracked moments that I realized the first time, and a few more now:

- Return to Tatooine ostinato from AOTC when Poe talks to Zorri

- Finn's Confession opening (from TFA which came from TPM) when he talks to Jannah about deserting the First Order

- Darth Vader's Death from ROTJ when Rey enters the Death Star II throne room (sounds like an old recording to me, but it's hard to tell)

- Possibly some material from TLJ from scenes on Ahch-To, although not explicitly stating any themes related to the island (when Rey, Finn and Poe are in the asteroid field after leaving Pasaana)

- That little string line we hear once Han, Chewie and Finn land on Starkiller base from TFA (forget when it plays, but I know it occured sometime after they leave Kijimi)

 

This is what I heard in the cinema based on my pretty good memory of the Star Wars scores. 

 

Anyways, of all the terrific score in the film there was one part that stood out for me the most, and it's kind of obscure. It's a non-thematic moment, and it's brief. Nonetheless, it underscores my favourite scene of the film and carried the most emotion for me. It's the devastating horns towards the end of the FYC track Advice, when Han talks to Ben. This moment in particular occurs when he throws his lightsaber into the ocean. It just really hit home for me, and my highlighting of this moment is certainly not to throw shade at any other part of the score, which I've obviously been listening to repeatedly since it came out.

 

[Falstaft 2,132]

5 minutes ago, Ludwig said:

Loving these crunchy chords after Ben Solo's death with the brass chorale (what @Falstaft (hiatus til TROS) lists as "Ben Solo's Redemption" in his magnificent catalogue). The first chord of bars 1, 3, and 4 I hear as polychord constructions of DM / Eb5. 

 

There is so much fantastic harmony in this score, isn't there? Can you figure this progression out, Ludwig? For some reason it's jamming my transcription abilities... 

 

[Nick Parker 3,040]

11 minutes ago, Ludwig said:

Loving these crunchy chords after Ben Solo's death with the brass chorale (what @Falstaft (hiatus til TROS) lists as "Ben Solo's Redemption" in his magnificent catalogue). The first chord of bars 1, 3, and 4 I hear as polychord constructions of DM / Eb5. 

 

 

 

Actually, the cue reminds me of "Voluntary Retirement" from Thomas Newman's Skyfall, which gives a similar brass chorale texture for Bond's "funeral". Not the same chords, but there's something similar about combining chords a semitone apart (successively in Newman, simultaneously in Williams).

 

That's the juice!

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

12 minutes ago, Ludwig said:

Loving these crunchy chords after Ben Solo's death with the brass chorale (what @Falstaft (hiatus til TROS) lists as "Ben Solo's Redemption" in his magnificent catalogue). The first chord of bars 1, 3, and 4 I hear as polychord constructions of DM / Eb5. 

 

 

 

Actually, the cue reminds me of "Voluntary Retirement" from Thomas Newman's Skyfall, which gives a similar brass chorale texture for Bond's "funeral". Not the same chords, but there's something similar about combining chords a semitone apart (successively in Newman, simultaneously in Williams).

The more "conventionally emotional" string music that follows the brass chorale is great too.  It really emotionally solidifies his redemption

[Nick Parker 3,040]

14 minutes ago, Falstaft (hiatus til TROS) said:

 

There is so much fantastic harmony in this score, isn't there? Can you figure this progression out, Ludwig? For some reason it's jamming my transcription abilities... 

 

 

Are you talking about just the insistent F#sus4/C#, with the classic Star Wars drop to a third below, or something else?

[Holko 9,491]

3 hours ago, The Illustrious Jerry said:

- Lando arrives with reinforcements (Don't quite know what the fuss is all about with this one. It's a good cue but hardly jaw dropping, and it would certainly disturb the coherence of the OST.)

Yes!

 

3 hours ago, The Illustrious Jerry said:

- Darth Vader's Death from ROTJ when Rey enters the Death Star II throne room (sounds like an old recording to me, but it's hard to tell)

Nah that was definitely tracked and chopped to shit - it starts right away with repeating the first phrase with no change or progression, whihc is something JW'd never do, it's just copypasted.

[Fabulin 3,506]

.

[King Mark 3,624]

4 hours ago, The Illustrious Jerry said:

 

- Lando arrives with reinforcements (Don't quite know what the fuss is all about with this one. It's a good cue but hardly jaw dropping, and it would certainly disturb the coherence of the OST.)

 

 

 

Look, the cue is amazing, there's no way around it . One of the best of all 9 films.  And it should have been in "Battle of the Resistance".

 

Some of the rerecordings in Reunion and Finale ARE jarring , completely pointless and should have been omitted instead

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

34 minutes ago, King Mark said:

Look, the cue is amazing, there's no way around it . One of the best of all 9 films.  And it should have been in "Battle of the Resistance".

 

Isn't it just the SW main theme?

[Arpy 4,145]

No, the rerecordings and placement of the older themes in Reunion was great. Yoda's theme fit the joyous tone of the victory, as did Luke & Leia for when everyone's embracing. 

1 hour ago, King Mark said:

Look, the cue is amazing, there's no way around it . One of the best of all 9 films.  And it should have been in "Battle of the Resistance".

 

Some of the rerecordings in Reunion and Finale ARE jarring , completely pointless and should have been omitted instead

 

[crumbs 14,287]

@PoggoAOTS Seeing as I doubt we'll hear another Williams/Star Wars podcast of Art of the Score anytime soon, any early thoughts about JW's final SW score? I vaguely recall a comment in the ESB podcast about TLJ almost 'collapsing under the weight' of that glossary of musical themes, given how many are quoted throughout.

 

It'll be interesting to see how the live-to-picture concerts for TROS handle the score's choral elements. A 100+ piece choir can't easily be replicated, and TROS presumably has the heaviest choral presence of any Williams LTP score thus far. I know it's ages away but any thoughts on how the MSO will handle the choral elements in TLJ (notably Finn's Attempted Sacrifice)?

 

Feel free to ask Dan to post his thoughts on the score here, I know he's a big fan of us

 

[King Mark 3,624]

1 hour ago, Stefancos said:

 

Isn't it just the SW main theme?

 sometimes i wonder if your even paying attention to the music these days

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I saw the film once, I didnt obsessively listen to the captured audio 14 times like you probably did.

[crumbs 14,287]

I don't see the big fuss with the Lando Returns cue, either. There's other unreleased cues I'd much rather have, and I'm glad the OST focused on new material anyway (as if anyone should be surprised -- JW has always done this with his sequel OST assemblies).

 

There's lots of unreleased sequel trilogy themes that were more important to resolve the thematic development of the new characters, such as the Training montage (which has crucial new variations on Rey's/Vader's/Ren's themes) and would have made an excellent album opener after Prologue. I can totally understand why Lando Returns didn't work for the listening experience JW was creating, which builds towards an emotional climax more than a heroic one (the incoherent film is a totally different story).

 

The real question is what the heck did Williams write for the destruction of the Sith temple and Palpatine's armada? They saw fit to replace it with Peace and Purpose from TLJ but I highly doubt this was originally unscored. Hopefully the Bluray bonus features answer some of these questions.

[gkgyver 1,645]

There's a trillion recordings and variations on the SW Main Titles, I don't need this specific one. 

I'm not entirely sure if it's not just a main or end title recording, with certain sections dialed out. There are some rough cuts in there as far as I can hear. 

[Jay 37,267]

I can understand the Lando Arrives cue not sticking out as special from seeing the film, with everything else going on and all the dialogue and sound effects, etc.

 

However, I hope if that was the case for you, you are willing to set aside 106 seconds and listen to this, preferably with headphones on, trying to ignore the dialogue and sound effects and just listen to the music:

This is more than just another re-recording of the main SW theme, this is a true reworking of the theme by JW for the climactic heroic moment of the film.  This is a cue worth having.

[Holko 9,491]

Eh.

 

No, wait, 1:05 on! That's where it's at!

[Jay 37,267]

It sounds edited down in parts to, so the full cue as originally recorded is probably even better

[TheUlyssesian 2,473]

It's a good cue and had good presence in the film. But couldn't it be a place to have the Victory theme? Why the main theme yet again.

[Jay 37,267]

Perhaps Williams originally scored it with the Victory theme, and this is a re-write JJ requested.  Who knows.

[King Mark 3,624]

2 hours ago, gkgyver said:

There's a trillion recordings and variations on the SW Main Titles, I don't need this specific one. 

I'm not entirely sure if it's not just a main or end title recording, with certain sections dialed out. There are some rough cuts in there as far as I can hear. 

  We wouldn't hear the end of it if a 10 seconds alternate variation  of Lord of the Rings music wasn't on your super deluxe 20 c.d. complete recordings and yet  you dismiss one the best version of the SW theme ever as not necessary and call us out for not being satisfied with our 76 minutes 1 c.d. OST.

1 hour ago, Jay said:

It sounds edited down in parts to, so the full cue as originally recorded is probably even better

  yeah it does. So even if we get an iso score it might not sound as great as it should

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

6 hours ago, crumbs said:

@PoggoAOTS

 

Feel free to ask Dan to post his thoughts on the score here, I know he's a big fan of us

 

I feel like whenever people are talking about "JWFan's negativity", they are really talking about the 5 or so toxic members that we all have on ignore.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

3 minutes ago, Not Mr. Big said:

I feel like whenever people are talking about "JWFan's negativity", they are really talking about the 5 or so toxic members that we all have on ignore.

 

I am not toxic!

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

1 minute ago, Stefancos said:

 

I am not toxic!

I never said you were!

[King Mark 3,624]

28 minutes ago, Jay said:

Perhaps Williams originally scored it with the Victory theme, and this is a re-write JJ requested.  Who knows.

  I have a feeling that occurred a lot. most of the score is probably Williams 2nd or 3rd attempt

 

TLJ was not so badly edited and cut to pieces so I feel we got most of what JW intended with the iso score

[Jay 37,267]

27 minutes ago, King Mark said:

 66 minutes 1 c.d. OST.

 

The TROS OST is 76 minutes, not 66 minutes

[King Mark 3,624]

right, but the full recordings are probably 3 times that

[Jay 37,267]

Easily, yes.

[The Illustrious Jerry 3,356]

12 hours ago, The Illustrious Jerry said:

Just came back from my second viewing, which wasn't voluntary. I promised someone I'd go with them before the film came out.

 

Anyways, I didn't care for the film so I really buckled down and listened for the score. Here are my discoveries/thoughts. There is probably some old news in here, but I'm not reading through 16 pages right now to cross reference.

 

...

Recalled last night as I was dozing off at least two more items of note.

 

Heavily edited portions of Falcon Flight reappear when Poe and company reach Exegol (just him and the other X-wings, not Lando). I remember hearing the Hyperspace ostinato from ESB in exactly the same way, as well as the very end of the super fast Palpatine's theme. 

 

I also recall hearing Poe's theme from the FYC track The Old Death Star, which doesn't contain this moment on the OST, twice in exactly the same way. 

 

Also, I'm pretty sure it's unreleased, but another cue I caught was when Palpatine orders Pryde to blow up a planet followed by the destruction of Kijimi. Palpatine's theme plays with the choir a lot like it does when he contacts the Trade Federation in TPM.

 

At the end of the day there are really only five to six noteworthy unreleased cues, two source cues not by JW, film versions and loads of tracked music. Again, not throwing any shade on this fantastic score, but I'm really just saying that we have the bulk of the score heard in film on the OST and FYC.

[Holko 9,491]

2 minutes ago, The Illustrious Jerry said:

the bulk of the score heard in film

The second half is the key: what was recorded for the missing 45 minutes? What early cues did JW record?

[TheUlyssesian 2,473]

39 minutes ago, Jay said:

Perhaps Williams originally scored it with the Victory theme, and this is a re-write JJ requested.  Who knows.

 

Seems plausible to me. Otherwise I think the Victory theme is featured what twice? Surely Willams would have wanted to do more with it - have the orchestral version for the allies arriving and the choral version for the victorious rebellion leaving.

[Edmilson 7,370]

The score is so heavily edited on the movie that I think if Disney releases a version with the isolated score, it'll be a listening experience as good as the TPM Ultimate Edition.

 

(But, please, don't let it stops them from releasing the iso, please  )

[King Mark 3,624]

yeah but we can sort of work with it for fan edits

[Will 2,215]

Part of the reason not having "Lando Arrives" is frustrating is because JW easily could have put that in the end credits, but instead chose to throw in a jarring exact reprise of the main title. The more I listen to the cue the more I love it - particularly the final few seconds (as Poe yells "Zori!") are pure and complete bliss. It seems to end rather abrubtly so that passage might have originally been longer!

[DrTenma 116]

The whole Skywalker saga deserves complete scores, with alternates and full versions of each cues, specially for TROS, which seems has more unused music than music has been released. I hope Disney releases them "soon". I felt very positive on how they released the complete score from The Mandalorian, and Williams deserves something bigger.  

[Holko 9,491]

39 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

I think if Disney releases a version with the isolated score, it'll be a listening experience as good as the TPM Ultimate Edition.

Worse actually!

 

5 minutes ago, Will said:

(as Poe yells "Zori!") are pure and complete bliss

I see what you did there.

 

3 minutes ago, DrTenma said:

I felt very positive on how they released the complete score from The Mandalorian

Really not complete at all actually.

[King Mark 3,624]

it's incredible there's no issue at releasing all the music to The Mandalorian right away and we still have to deal with this crap with JW

[The Illustrious Jerry 3,356]

1 minute ago, King Mark said:

it's incredible there's no issue at releasing all the music to The Mandalorian right away and we still have to deal with this crap with JW

Again, the music released from The Mandalorian is still missing plenty of cues. Anyways, the release format of the TV show works perfectly with the weekly release of music, which is why we've gotten so much (but definetly not all!). Additionally, they have only been released digitally, not physically, so there are no real time limitations to what they can release, even though each OST is around half an hour long. 

[Will 2,215]

22 minutes ago, Holko said:

 

I see what you did there.

 

Oh wow that was actually completely unintentional but I'll take the credit... 

[Ludwig 1,120]

16 hours ago, Falstaft (hiatus til TROS) said:

There is so much fantastic harmony in this score, isn't there? Can you figure this progression out, Ludwig? For some reason it's jamming my transcription abilities... 

 

 

Here's what I get for that passage. Not quite the F#sus4 @Nick Parker suggested, but close!

 

 

I'd call these chords quartal rather than try to force them (haha) into third-based labels of major and minor chords. I included the last chord of the preceding passage because the latter one grows out of it. The sustained chord on top is used again in bar 3, though now with C# as bass, so truly quartal as C#-F#-B-E (upper parts rearranged, but bass is the "root", a bit like with major and minor chords). Add some of Williams beloved planing of the upper chords and that's pretty much the passage, harmonically, until the last chord, which veers away from pure quartal writing.

 

Quartal harmony is great because it kind of sits in between tonal and atonal - perfect for scenes of tension, especially when we're unsure which way a fight or battle is going to go at the moment.

[gkgyver 1,645]

5 hours ago, Jay said:

I can understand the Lando Arrives cue not sticking out as special from seeing the film, with everything else going on and all the dialogue and sound effects, etc.

 

However, I hope if that was the case for you, you are willing to set aside 106 seconds and listen to this, preferably with headphones on, trying to ignore the dialogue and sound effects and just listen to the music:

This is more than just another re-recording of the main SW theme, this is a true reworking of the theme by JW for the climactic heroic moment of the film.  This is a cue worth having.

 

I did listen to this before. It's a nice rendition. 

It was nice hearing it in the film the first time, but it was forgotten the day after. 

 

I would have preferred some original thematic material, that really leaves a mark, like pretty much all SW films before this Disney thing did. 

Like so many things in this film, it feels like trying to get a nostalgia pop from the audience that doesn't hold up on repeated viewings. 

I don't have an emotional response to it, I've heard the main titles a billion times. 

[Jay 37,267]

Including the Destruction of Kijimi cue on the OST would have really helped give Anthem of Evil more presence

[Bofur01 245]

5 hours ago, Jay said:

Perhaps Williams originally scored it with the Victory theme, and this is a re-write JJ requested.  Who knows.

I have a really vague feeling about reading a statement where JJ said that he never told JW what to write for any point in the film... does anyone else recall this? Seems like it would be relevant to this discussion...

[King Mark 3,624]

I listened to the bad quality movie rip and came to the conclusion an iso score would be very helpful putting together a decent expanded version

 

Most of the unreleased music cues don't seem edited .Only there's a lot of short 20-30 second cues that might give that impression. The edits seem mostly stuff from the OST that was omitted or replaced by something else (like They Will Come)

 

I also noticed the amazing version of Kylo Ren's theme when they're force pulling the shuttle

[Jay 37,267]

Definitely a score with a lot of unreleased highlights