Chen G. 3,949 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 Across the Stars isn’t necessarily the most developed theme, but it’s the most prescient one. It was written by a composer who knows where the story is headed. It’s also a theme that’s embedded into a lot of other material in the two prequel scores. Another theme to have major development across the six-part series is the Imperial March, although it’s absence from the original score slightly undermines that. Cerebral Cortex 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crumbs 14,314 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 40 minutes ago, Chen G. said: Another theme to have major development across the six-part series is the Imperial March, although it’s absence from the original score slightly undermines that. Off the top of my head, it's the only theme to appear in 8 of the 9 scores (and its absence in the original is only because it wasn't written yet), with the Force and Luke's theme being the only ones in all 9 (the latter simply because of the main title though). It's cleverly developed in the prequel trilogy because Williams knew where it was heading. Its appearances in the ST are pretty much just scene specific, an obligation due to the appearance of Vader's helmet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,949 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 Also the Rebel Fanfare, purely because its part of the end credits suite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crumbs 14,314 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 Good point... well, I guess if you exclude the obligatory titles/credits, it's tied with Luke's Theme on 8 films (with the Force Theme the only one in all 9). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Falstaft 2,132 Posted January 8, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 8, 2020 If you count tracked music, then the Main Theme also appears in all 9 films' underscore (AoTC battle) Here's the tally of the OT themes used in more than 1 movie: Force: 9/9 Main Theme: 8/9 (9/9 if inc. tracking in AOTC) Imperial March: 8/9 Rebel Fanfare: 7/9 (8/9 if inc. this vaguely RF-ish moment) Leia: 7/9 Yoda: 7/9 Emperor: 6/9 Han & Leia: 4/9 (5/9 if inc. tracking in TROS) Death Star: 3/9 Luke & Leia: 3/9 TIE Fighter Attack: 3/9 Throne Room: 2/9 mstrox, The Five Tones, Ludwig and 4 others 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,359 Posted January 8, 2020 Author Share Posted January 8, 2020 Is that counting Augie's as Emp'peror's Theme or no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post mstrox 6,651 Posted January 8, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 8, 2020 Regardless of whether you count Augie's as Emperor's theme, TPM has the Emperor's theme. crumbs, Falstaft, Fabulin and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holko 9,526 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 There's a lot of renditions of it in TPM with or without Augie. Ninjatrox! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,359 Posted January 8, 2020 Author Share Posted January 8, 2020 I shouldn't post before I've had my coffee mstrox 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D_A_R_T_H 24 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 57 - Arrival at Exogol seem to be : Prologue (FYC) 0:056 - 1:28 + Fanfare and Prologue 3:39 - 3:56 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,359 Posted January 8, 2020 Author Share Posted January 8, 2020 Check out @Falstaft (hiatus til TROS)'s post here. He pointed out, with an audio example, that they are not in fact the same music... but they are similar! Basically, the thinking now is that that music in the film/FYC track is an alternate for Rey's arrival on Exegol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post JohnnyD 1,223 Posted January 8, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 8, 2020 10 hours ago, Cerebral Cortex said: Rey's theme is first heard in TFA in a way that very much hearkens to the idea of someone who is just beginning their journey while also expressing the loneliness and perhaps lost nature that someone currently finds themselves in in searching for greater purpose. We last hear the theme in a way very suggestive of the completion of a journey and of someone who has matured through the events they have experienced. The theme concludes, like the character, in a way far different than how it started. Poe's theme goes through a similar metamorphosis also perfectly in line with his character growth, first heard in a way that perfectly embodies Poe's daring and hot shot nature at the start of the ST before last being heard in a way more befitting now of "Poe the leader" than "Poe the pilot." Those final thematic statements mean something this go around and are utilized by Williams as an opportunity to highlight character change. And Kylo Ren's theme, perhaps the best example, is introduced as this. It's huge, it's powerful, it's commanding of attention. This is someone to fear. By the end of the very next film, the theme has changed to match the evolved state of the character. His theme has more structured orchestral backing now, akin to the new First Order army he now has complete control over as Supreme Leader. The denser state of the rendition gives the theme more focus and clarity to its statement, similar to the sureness the character has now acquired throughout the film. By the very last film, it concludes by being used like this, this and this. You could not be more removed from the initial usage. It's now light, hopeful, very much a theme for a character of good. Kylo's theme, as a result, may be the most developed theme in all of Star Wars. This is not to dismiss all the wonderful variations of the Force theme we got across the 9 films, nor to ignore the unique permutations that Luke's theme has undergone. But as far as living up to the true purpose of a character theme, a recurrent musical idea associated with and fully representative of a particular person, Kylo's theme takes the cake. Every significant beat and change in that character feels like it is marked by a concurrent beat or change in his theme. I'm just trying to make the point that it seems like Williams went into this trilogy with the very conscious and deliberate choice to try a different approach with how he dealt with character themes (and sequel scores in general). He seems to treat them with a reverence he had normally forgone when doing scores to sequels in the past, reprising them unabashedly in new ways that connects with how the characters themselves are changing. Very interesting and cool insight. I noticed that too. I've really enjoyed this over 40 year journey known as the Star Wars Saga (not in the literal sense, as I am only 27 years old, but I was introduced to Star Wars when I was six years old with Episode IV, V and VI on VHS. I saw Episode I, II, and III in theaters. I've read the novels and seen the series that add additional depth and content to the Saga, and I've enjoyed every moment; I also saw Episode VII, VIII and IX in theaters, of course; I experienced all of Galaxy's Edge and enjoyed everything). My passion for classical and contemporary orchestral music began with Maestro John Williams, having first heard that Main Title. I still remember my expression of awe and delight as a six year old kid. Now 27, that same feeling inside never left. What a great journey. I can't wait until Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker comes out on Blu-Ray and Digital. The collection will be complete. Now the only thing that I'll have to wait for is a box set of all nine scores remastered and expanded in the definitive treatment that the Maestro's work deserves. Anyway, a heartfelt congratulations and thank you to the cast and crew of Episode VII, VIII and IX, everyone at Lucasfilm, a thank you to George Lucas, and a tremendous thank you and congratulations to the Maestro himself. crumbs, Cerebral Cortex, Jon Turner and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Five Tones 302 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 11 hours ago, Cerebral Cortex said: Rey's theme is first heard in TFA in a way that very much hearkens to the idea of someone who is just beginning their journey while also expressing the loneliness and perhaps lost nature that someone currently finds themselves in in searching for greater purpose "Rey, who?" "Rey... Ben's Theme." "Ben, who?" Very thoughtful and thought-provoking post, thanks! -- On a separate note, I wasn't expecting an explicit, slowed-down Nibelung motif (as opposed to any instances in JW's music where it was stylistically implicit). And sorry if this has been posted already here or on another thread. Despite JW's known aversion to Wagner and his reticence to have his leitmotivic approach in SW associated with that of the Ring, here it is: It makes sense given Kylo (or Rey or whoever in whichever intended scene) is journeying to what is very much the underworld, a "gaol" of the "exiled." That anvil audio is still one of the dopest things for its time and context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominicCobb 194 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 @Falstaft (hiatus til TROS) When is the Han and Leia tracking in TROS? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Five Tones 302 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 I've mentioned this chord before (and its nearly note for note similarity to the climactic chord in CE3K's End Titles), but I didn't realize at the time that it was heard earlier in the film, and probably tracked at that, here: Perhaps it's foreshadowing or even shipping, as it were. I find it very interesting tonally; a chord that has tension with B-flat major (Main Title/Luke's key) and its relative minor, G minor (Vader), and even can be transposed and spelled as the Death Star chord below (C# minor major 7th third inversion vs. E-flat minor major 7th first inversion in TROS). Docteur Qui 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post crocodile 8,012 Posted January 8, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 8, 2020 I was just reading the 2019 summary from FSM Online (by ever-entertaining Jon and Al Kaplan) and they make a curious connection they make between Rey and the duo of new themes: Quote Conspiracy theories aside, Williams’ greatest achievement in his final Star Wars score is his gorgeous “Rise of Skywalker” piece, actually two themes for the price of one. The material mostly addresses the camaraderie of the film’s boring main trio, but there’s much more under the surface. One theme is loosely based on Rey’s main melody, while the other serves as a sort of contented, major-mode reinvention of her questioning, Dies- Irae-flavored chordal motif—it’s Williams finally showing Rey “her place in all of this.” The tune is also general enough that different listeners may hear in it different allusions to other Star Wars themes, and without necessarily being wrong. More important, this is the first time in any Star Wars trilogy that Williams has been able to establish and develop a theme for closure. And if you really count this movie as the closing chapter to the entire saga, then we suppose the theme is all the more moving! They are referring to this: And this: They also conclude it is most well thought-out SW trilogy from the musical standpoint. It's hard to disagree. Karol Cerebral Cortex, Alan, SteveMc and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,359 Posted January 8, 2020 Author Share Posted January 8, 2020 So it's not a Victory theme, more of a final evolve of Rey's Chime motif? Arpy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominicCobb 194 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 I never made that connection with the intro (Victory) and Rey's intro. The main melody (Trio) always reminds me of Poe's theme: The first four notes and the progression seem very similar to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post crocodile 8,012 Posted January 8, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 8, 2020 38 minutes ago, Jay said: So it's not a Victory theme, more of a final evolve of Rey's Chime motif? It's a new theme derived from another theme. Like Anakin's theme. Funny thing about Rey's Theme is that, whether Williams intended any of this as such, every single musical connection and/or theory that appeared over the past four years in regards to this theme is valid. All the connections to Dies Irae, the devil's tritone, Force theme, Kylo Ren, Palpatine... all of these hold water. This is either the biggest set of coincidences in the history of film scoring or an absolute stroke of genius. Karol The Five Tones, Mattris, Tiburon and 3 others 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,359 Posted January 8, 2020 Author Share Posted January 8, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evanus 217 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 Also I love how he used the emperor's theme for Snoke in TLJ, which now totally lines up with Snoke being created by Palpatine. Either they're coincidences, or John can see the future lol Not Mr. Big 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crocodile 8,012 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 It is also possible Disney execs and Abrams were reading/watching all the feverish fan theories when trying to assemble the new movie. Karol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,631 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 the Anthem of Evil bit in Finale is longer on the OST than in the film End credits crumbs 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post artguy360 1,843 Posted January 9, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 9, 2020 I like the idea that the chimes expressing loneliness in the opening of Rey's Theme evolve into the warm, familial melody that opens TROS theme. It's a clear contrast and a comforting musical bookend. Cerebral Cortex, Tiburon, greenturnedblue and 3 others 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Five Tones 302 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 The language of the Star Wars scores is a meta language, and a fantastic one at that, between the themes that are intertextual with existing classical and film scores and the others (the majority of them) that refer back to themselves or are an outgrowth. It's really quite amazing. Ludwig's analysis posted today has a nicely diagrammed explanation of Victory being derived from Rey's Chimes: Ludwig and Falstaft 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,359 Posted January 9, 2020 Author Share Posted January 9, 2020 40 minutes ago, King Mark said: the Anthem of Evil bit in Finale is longer on the OST than in the film End credits On 1/5/2020 at 2:39 AM, Jay said: The End Credits roll, after the traditional opening, contains arrangements of We Go Together (1:20-2:05), Anthem of Evil (2:05-3:25), The Imperial March (3:25-4:51), Rey's Theme (4:51-6:09), The Victory Theme (6:09-7:32), and Luke's Theme and the Rebel Fanfare (7:32-end) In the final film, the Anthem of Evil passage is cut down to 38 seconds, The Imperial March is cut down to just over a minute, and The Victory Theme passage is cut down to just under a minute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpy 4,145 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 Anyone else pick up on the 'Alliance Assembly' vibes in 'They Will Come'? The Five Tones and Fabulin 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crumbs 14,314 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 5 hours ago, artguy360 said: I like the idea that the chimes expressing loneliness in the opening of Rey's Theme evolve into the warm, familial melody that opens TROS theme. It's a clear contrast and a comforting musical bookend. Plus the gorgeous, resolved rendition in A New Home. 4 hours ago, Jay said: In the final film, the Anthem of Evil passage is cut down to 38 seconds, The Imperial March is cut down to just over a minute, and The Victory Theme passage is cut down to just under a minute. Ironic that despite waiting until almost the last session to record the credits suite, not even that was safe from being hacked up by JJ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,359 Posted January 9, 2020 Author Share Posted January 9, 2020 Well to be fair, we don't have a good enough recording of the film's audio to tell if they actually recorded long and short versions of those pieces or if it was simply edited down by the music editor... that being said, it's like 99% likely to be the latter anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crumbs 14,314 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 Considering how the rest of the score was treated... and both previous film's credits suites were tampered with as well. Not to say he wasn't aware it could get cut down... Same thing happened with that extended Throne Room suite on ROTS; presumably he knew it would only feature complete on the OST? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,631 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 well they can't add extra credits to fit the music.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crumbs 14,314 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 No, but presumably JW is given a credits runtime to match when he starts writing it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demodex 557 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 The more I think about it, I think TROS is my least favorite John Williams Star Wars score. I just can't seem to get excited about hearing Rey's and Kylo Ren's themes every two minutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpy 4,145 Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 Is that a hint of Kylo Ren's theme right after the Yoda and the Force 'X-Wing levitation statement? It seems to hint at the firsttwo notes without being resolved! 4:55- Also love what appears to be a little allusion to Kylo's theme in Battle of the Resistance as it starts off strong but deflates immediately. 0:32-0:37 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrTenma 116 Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 On 1/8/2020 at 11:51 PM, Evanus said: Also I love how he used the emperor's theme for Snoke in TLJ, which now totally lines up with Snoke being created by Palpatine. Either they're coincidences, or John can see the future lol Probably incorrectly, but I always assumed the Emperor Theme was more The Dark Side Theme, could be that Williams or Johnson had also that idea in their mind? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig 1,120 Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 3 hours ago, Arpy said: Is that a hint of Kylo Ren's theme right after the Yoda and the Force 'X-Wing levitation statement? It seems to hint at the firsttwo notes without being resolved! 4:55- It's probably more of an allusion to the Lydian mode of Yoda's theme. You're right, it's unresolved (unlike other times in Yoda's theme), but I hear it as a kind of tag on the end of the cue, like a tiny reminder of the main feature of Yoda's theme. Ends of classical pieces do this a lot on a broader scale and it wouldn't surprise me if Williams is channeling that in miniature format here. 4 hours ago, Arpy said: Also love what appears to be a little allusion to Kylo's theme in Battle of the Resistance as it starts off strong but deflates immediately. 0:32-0:37 I don't recall this part in the film - was it not included? I always look for evidence in the film to support more uncertain theme statements. I'd probably chalk this up to Williams' love of the Hungarian minor scale in action cues (minor scale with raised 4 degree), and that's the same scale Kylo's theme is forged from, so it does have a common sound with his theme. He loves his cascading low brass arpeggios in these kinds of cues as well - there's something kind of apocalyptic about them, and again Kylo's theme does the same. So I'd say they're cut from the same musical cloth but are probably separate in identity. My two cents, anyway! Arpy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post The Five Tones 302 Posted January 10, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 10, 2020 Some interesting variations on the Victory theme here (0:59 - 1:22), with a sense of trying to find its ultimate form in terms harmony and intervals (i.e. in Farewell), ending quite unresolved before the Resistance theme enters by contrast in its most formal guise. But always that cell of note - falling second - note. Tydirium, Ludwig, Tiburon and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dylanskie 104 Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 I was a little disappointed because I hadn't detected it in the film, but I can hear now that that section of Palpatine's Seduction is in the film. When Palpatine says the thing about being every voice inside Kylo's head Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taikomochi 1,136 Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 Yeah it’s mostly dialed out, but you can hear a few seconds of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crumbs 14,314 Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 Has anyone noticed that the music in the B-Roll footage contains an alternate ending to OST track Journey to Exogol? Cerebral Cortex and Taikomochi 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerebral Cortex 3,357 Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 Oooh, nice find! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crumbs 14,314 Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 I like the alternate ending more! The OST version doesn't leave much of an impression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manakin Skywalker 4,892 Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 It's not really "alternate", just the unchopped-up ending without the choir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crumbs 14,314 Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 Uhh, no, it's clearly an alternate ending. There's no choral elements involved in either version. Maybe you need to check your speakers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveMc 2,674 Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 Probably has been mentioned before in the thread, but I really like the little passage starting at 1:40 here. Such a distinctive sound, has really been staying with me. What kind of orchestration is involved? I hear low and middle strings, or course, and I think horns, but is that all that is making for this almost crystalline effect? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tydirium 1,167 Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 11 hours ago, crumbs said: Has anyone noticed that the music in the B-Roll footage contains an alternate ending to OST track Journey to Exogol? Actually, that seems to be "Approaching the Throne": The "Journey to Exegol" version includes Kylo Ren's Theme, while the B-roll footage/"Approaching the Throne" contains a few notes of Anthem of Evil. (Also note that this version is a bit slower than in "Journey to Exegol".) Based on the B-roll footage, it almost seems like the faster music starting at 2:18 of "Approaching the Throne" for the following scene (Finn and Jannah on the Star Destroyer) might have been a separate cue that was edited onto a truncated version of this (the album/film versions of "Approaching the Throne" leave off 7:13-7:21 of the B-roll), to fit the film. So, I think "Approaching the Throne" is actually two cues put together. @Jay, any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manakin Skywalker 4,892 Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 9 hours ago, crumbs said: Uhh, no, it's clearly an alternate ending. There's no choral elements involved in either version. Maybe you need to check your speakers? As Tydirium pointed out, you're thinking of the wrong cue. The B-Roll footage is showing the ending to "Approaching the Throne" without the choir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Five Tones 302 Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 This is such a catchy little tune, I wish it had a bigger part in the score or maybe it was just meant to refer back vaguely to this (other than them both being chase scenes with a "boat" I wouldn't know why): Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyD 1,223 Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 18 hours ago, crumbs said: 7 hours ago, Tydirium said: Actually, that seems to be "Approaching the Throne": Based on the B-roll footage, it almost seems like the faster music starting at 2:18 of "Approaching the Throne" for the following scene (Finn and Jannah on the Star Destroyer) might have been a separate cue that was edited onto a truncated version of this (the album/film versions of "Approaching the Throne" leave off 7:13-7:21 of the B-roll), to fit the film. So, I think "Approaching the Throne" is actually two cues put together. This is correct. The B-roll footage shows the recording and performance of 2:06 to 2:18 of the album track; the ending is obviously as recorded, so it is the ending of the cue. It would immediately segue into 2:18 of the album track, which is the next cue. This was micro-edited out for the album track, and it is unused in the film. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Falstaft 2,132 Posted January 12, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 12, 2020 Here's another curiosity: The statement of Rey's Theme (the "sweeping" variant, specifically) on Ahch-To is a single semitone higher in the film than it is on the album. Film version is in F-minor, album version in E-minor. Listen here: https://drive.google.com/open?id=19v6aSiPphw4orLVYBStiSmNUhW9N12rj This is another case where, because of the poor sound quality we currently have, it's hard to tell if it's tracked-and-pitch-adjusted or an actual alternate cue. If it's tracked, it would seem to be overlain with a high sustained string pitch A♭6 for the first four seconds or so. Whatever the case, it speaks to the fact this was a heavily edited and continuously reshaped sequence, something already suspected by many of us. Ludwig, The Five Tones, Cerebral Cortex and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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