The Rise of Skywalker The Rise of Skywalker - COMPLETE SCORE Discussion - SPOILERS ALLOWED!

[crumbs 14,287]

 

11 minutes ago, Arpy said:

The same couldn't be said for TRoS. 

 

The music has no impact because it's barely audible. Listen to the cool fanfare Williams wrote for the Death Star reveal. If we didn't have it on the OST you'd never hear it over 7.1 channels of roaring waves:

 

It's like the sound team had total contempt for the score, treating it like some annoyance that needed to be drowned under their sound effects. And TFA had the exact same problem so it's no huge surprise.

 

[DominicCobb 194]

13 minutes ago, crumbs said:

 

Rian clearly understood (and respected) that the music needs to take centre stage for key dramatic sequences in Star Wars, something JJ completely disregarded outside the obligatory musical closing sequence (Jedi Steps and A New Home).

 

The key difference is that JJ didn't construct his sequences around music; he conformed the music to his vision (with a hacksaw when necessary). That is not how Star Wars music is meant to function in these films and is a disservice to Williams' music. Contrast that to the big musical moments in TLJ where the entire sequence is crafted around the score, like all the examples you mentioned (plus Paige's death, another powerful musical moment that JJ and his sound team would have drowned in obnoxious sound effects).

 

The music never has the chance to breathe in JJ's films, let alone take centre stage, among all the shouting and noise.

 

Absolutely right. And I think Escape is excellent, that moment and others within that sequence are such good cinema, but I know people here complain about the edits made to that cue in the film. But it's nothing like what JJ did, and the music still shines, even if things have been shuffled.

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1 minute ago, Holko said:

looks at Sail Barge Assault, TPM last third, AotC, RotS

 

No disagreements there, the prequels are almost as bad as JJ's films when it comes to the treatment of the music. They are definitely not the "Gold Standard" for the series, but TLJ is right up there with ANH/ESB (yes, even with all the dialled out music in the latter).

[Holko 9,491]

11 minutes ago, crumbs said:

(yes, even with all the dialled out music in the latter)

Yeah I actually think most of those scenes work a ton better without the music, I dunno what JW was thinking half the time, or what he was told, or if it really took Kersh that long to find the tone.

[crumbs 14,287]

I guess ESB was the start of the, "let's just score everything and we'll delete what we don't need" mentality.

[DominicCobb 194]

I do think TFA at least has its moments (The Scavenger, I Can Fly Anything, The Resistance, The Abduction, Farewell and The Trip, Jedi Steps), but with TROS there really isn't much. Farewell is pretty much the only great music moment in the film. Reunion gets its day but it's just a greatest hits montage, and A New Home is pretty nice but subdued (part of the final scene isn't even scored).

 

7 minutes ago, Holko said:

Yeah I actually think most of those scenes work a ton better without the music, I dunno what JW was thinking half the time, or what he was told, or if it really took Kersch that long to find the tone.

 

I've often wondered if they scored all that in the beginning of the movie initially because they were worried film's first act was too slow and quiet after Star Wars's big bombastic opening sequence.

[Arpy 4,145]

24 minutes ago, crumbs said:

It's staggering how effective the music is for that film. Outside a few cues in the dying minutes, nothing in TROS comes close to these heights:

 

 

I just can't relate to people who single out the TLJ score as weak or uninspired. What film were they watching? Because Rian and his sound team clearly adored the score Williams wrote and temped the film to give the music the maximum impact.

The score has presence in the film, but unfortunately it's just more Force Theme statements; in Williams' repertoire, it's not as inspired as TFA and TRoS seem to be. Just  to be clear - it's fine music, just not spectacular.

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15 minutes ago, DominicCobb said:

A New Home is pretty nice but subdued (part of the final scene isn't even scored).

 

I was a bit disappointed by that as well. It would've been great to have one final, all-encompassing suite which filled the last 5 minutes (like Confrontation with Count Dooku or the closing cues for ROTS). Other than Jedi Steps, the sequel trilogy was very disappointing in this regard, with the filmmakers opting for very short (and very restrained) cues or silence over musical storytelling.

 

What I wouldn't have given for one final end credits segue in line with the Across the Stars rendition for AOTC than 3 variations on Binary Sunset (2 of which were just re-recordings of previous versions!)

[Arpy 4,145]

20 minutes ago, crumbs said:

 

 

It's like the sound team had total contempt for the score, treating it like some annoyance that needed to be drowned under their sound effects. And TFA had the exact same problem so it's no huge surprise.

 

It's worse - these days they're selling sound design over score and that's a sad thing. There's an artform to sound design and mixing etc. but that's akin to a beautiful frame on a Rembrandt.

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5 minutes ago, Arpy said:

It's worse - these days they're selling sound design over score and that's a sad thing. There's an artform to sound design and mixing etc. but that's akin to a beautiful frame on a Rembrandt.

 

Absolutely. Look at the way score and sound design were handled for the Asteroid Chase in AOTC; an absolute masterclass.

 

Then watch the Speeder Chase in TROS and try not to get a headache; a relentless onslaught of noise.

[Arpy 4,145]

What pissed me off when I first saw that scene was that you can hear it start off, yes, this is going to be the thing from the trailers, or better yet, the full theme from the OST, then it's immediately destroyed by sounds of inane bullshit. The one and only celebratory statement of the chase theme is still covered by noise!

 

No wonder critics didn't have anything to say about the score. It was a ghost.

 

 

[crumbs 14,287]

The handling of the Speeder Chase cue is totally mystifying to me. JJ got his own version of Scherzo for Motorcycle and Orchestra and saw fit to hack it to pieces.

 

It's even worse watching the synced up version, because the second half mostly still fits with the final cut!

[Holko 9,491]

3 minutes ago, crumbs said:

It's even worse watching the synced up version, because the second half mostly still fits with the final cut!

Innnteresting, I have no memory of your synced up version ever being posted. Where might one find such treasures?

[Arpy 4,145]

It's one of the greatest action cues of the ST and it's relegated to unused status.

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4 minutes ago, Holko said:

Innnteresting, I have no memory of your synced up version ever being posted. Where might one find such treasures?

 

I never posted it, actually.

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

4 hours ago, Arpy said:

The score has presence in the film, but unfortunately it's just more Force Theme statements; in Williams' repertoire, it's not as inspired as TFA and TRoS seem to be. Just  to be clear - it's fine music, just not spectacular.

I hear more inspiration from Williams in the highly edited TROS than I do from the unedited TLJ.  All of TLJ's "great" moments are non-thematic and last less than 60 seconds.

[Romão 2,274]

You look at a scene like The Spark. You can see it was clearly shot and edited expecting the music to carry it. It's one those scenes a composer must be thrilled to work with. There is absolutely nothing of the sort in TROS. It's a nearly impossible film to score properly. A complete score will do it justice, I'm sure

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

10 minutes ago, Romão said:

You look at a scene like The Spark. You can see it was clearly shot and edited expecting the music to carry it. It's one those scenes a composer must be thrilled to work with. There is absolutely nothing of the sort in TROS. It's a nearly impossible film to score properly. A complete score will do it justice, I'm sure

The beginning of Journey to Exegol is a cooler version of The Spark

[Romão 2,274]

Just now, Not Mr. Big said:

The beginning of Journey to Exegol is a cooler version of The Spark

 

 

I'm not comparing the music itself (I prefer the OST of TROS to TLJ), but rather the scoring opportunities given

[Arpy 4,145]

1 hour ago, Not Mr. Big said:

All of TLJ's "great" moments are non-thematic and last less than 60 seconds.

Yes, and when I find myself listening to TLJ, it's these short little moments that are more fascinating. 

[crumbs 14,287]

Some of the best music in Star Wars has been totally athematic! What a bizarre criticism.

 

Off the top of my head, The Immolation Scene, The Asteroid Chase, Anakin's Dark Deeds, Chase Through Coruscant, It Can't Be, The Dark Side Beckons, I could go on all day. 

 

Some could argue that Williams' slavish reliance on existing themes in the sequel trilogy was more of a detriment than a positive. It's nice he tried to inject some of these one-off musical ideas into the final film, shame JJ tossed them in the bin. And yet all the big musical moments not based on existing themes shine brilliantly in Last Jedi (Finn's Attempted Sacrifice, The Spark, Holdo's Resolve, We Lose Girl Ace, etc.)

[Smaug The Iron 510]

2 hours ago, Not Mr. Big said:

All of TLJ's "great" moments are non-thematic and last less than 60 seconds.

The Battle of Crait is thematic and 7 min and 25 seconds long, Rey's training is thematic, The Fathiers is thematic and 2 min and 42 seconds. Holdo's Resolve is thematic and 2 min and 20 seconds. 

[Holko 9,491]

The Last Jedi is mostly thematic and 3:04 long.

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

41 minutes ago, Smaug the iron said:

The Battle of Crait is thematic and 7 min and 25 seconds long, Rey's training is thematic, The Fathiers is thematic and 2 min and 42 seconds. Holdo's Resolve is thematic and 2 min and 20 seconds. 

Battle of Crait is a 7 minute collection of 30 second thematic statements.

Rey's Training is 1 minute long, mostly just a straight statement of Rey's concert arrangement and 15 seconds of the exile theme.  

The Falthiers and Holdo's Resolve are good.

The Last Jedi has its moments but is largely made up of stingers and statements of older themes.  The choir bits are good, but insubstantial.

[Faleel 5,326]

4 hours ago, crumbs said:

Some of the best music in Star Wars has been totally athematic! What a bizarre criticism.

 

Off the top of my head, The Immolation Scene, The Asteroid Chase, Anakin's Dark Deeds, Chase Through Coruscant, It Can't Be, The Dark Side Beckons, I could go on all day. 

Quite quitaof

quite a few of those contain themes and motifs?

[Arpy 4,145]

@crumbs It's not a matter of thematic vs. athematic, it's just that TLJ is a slog compared to TFA and TRoS. Such a bummer the exile theme wasn't taken further too.

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4 hours ago, Fal J. M. Skywalker said:

quite a few of those contain themes and motifs?

 

Fragments of themes, sure. My point is that overall those cues are built around athematic ideas that aren't directly tied to an existing or recurring motif. Williams just had a cool idea and built a cue around it.

[Demodex 557]

This guy on YouTube has some unreleased music clips. A few sound effects but not too bad. 

 

 

[Smaug The Iron 510]

Yeah it is @Chewy playlis. I think he postat it some time ago in this thread. 

[Manakin Skywalker 4,889]

7 hours ago, Demodex said:

This guy on YouTube has some unreleased music clips. A few sound effects but not too bad. 

 

 

 

Yeah that's Chewy's videos. I posted my mixes as well on Google Drive.

[Demodex 557]

I can't keep track of everyone's mixes.  Damn I wish I could just find a film edit.

[crumbs 14,287]

Can anyone provide some illumination about the mystery of 8M4 Psalm of the Sith? I don't read sheet music but discovered the first 2 pages of this cue are clearly shown in the TROS featurette (the violin part).

 

 

Can anyone tell if this resembles music on the OST or the film? All we know about this cue is that it wasn't in the November 11 cut, and most speculation has revolved around OST track Anthem of Evil containing some of this cue (because nothing in that track is used in the final film).

 

If I'm reading this correctly, the ascending notes on page 2 seem reminiscent of the rising strings in the unused portion of Join Me on the OST (from around 1:34).

 

 

[Bofur01 245]

Join Me is used up to ca 2:05 in the film, right? 

[Jay 37,249]

4 minutes ago, Bofur01 said:

Join Me is used up to ca 2:05 in the film, right? 

 

 

On 1/1/2020 at 7:34 PM, Jay said:

FYC 10 Join Me  2:21 / OST 10 Join Me 3:42

 

The high string opening covers Rey and Ren approaching each other, then circling each other in the empty hangar (how did the Millennium Falcon with the rest of our heroes in it get out?) as stormtroopers file in and line the walls.  The music quiets as Ren reveals that Rey is a Palpatine, with the crescendo approximately 50 seconds into the cue playing on a closeup of Rey's face as she processes the news.  The Anthem of Evil theme now gets a long, slow rendition on strings as Ren walks towards Rey, as he tells her that they are a Force Dyad, backing her up against the hangar's exit into outer space as he asks her to join him in taking down the Emperor together.

 

Over a minute of material heard on the OST from 2:05-3:17 is entirely absent in the film.  From 2:05-2:59 the music is very dramatic, and likely underscores a much longer version of their conversation (Rey's Theme appears at one point but its otherwise non-thematic).  The brief outburst of action material ending with Kylo Ren's Theme from 2:59-3:17 would have underscored the Falcon showing up to save Rey, but this is replaced in the final film with 15 seconds of material tracked in from The Battle of the Resistance, which features Luke's Theme over a shot of Poe in the cockpit.

 

The film/FYC version and OST version are the same for the ending, with Rey's Theme playing as she jumps off of the Destroyer towards Finn, who grabs her from the Falcon's landing ramp and she boards the Falcon as the cue ends with a fanfare and they fly away.

[Falstaft 2,132]

1 hour ago, crumbs said:

Can anyone provide some illumination about the mystery of 8M4 Psalm of the Sith? I don't read sheet music but discovered the first 2 pages of this cue are clearly shown in the TROS featurette (the violin part).

 

 

 

 

Yep, the second page is definitely exactly what we hear on OST "Join Me" from 1:46-3:00. The first page is harder to determine, but the last few bars does seem to be the lead-in to that section of Join Me. Not sure about everything beforehand though.

 

 

 

[Jay 37,249]

Fascinating.  Though since this is just the violin part, it doesn't necessarily indicate he stuffed Psalm of the Sith into the middle of the Join Me cue for the album, it could mean he used the same melody in both places.  Interesting!

[crumbs 14,287]

This score is such a confusing mess. Matessino's expansion will be a fascinating experience if it ever happens and he's able to present the score Williams originally intended.

 

I suspect the Anthem of Evil theme played a much larger role in the original version of the score (especially the final act, before everything was restructured). This is some pretty heavy music and most of it went unused in the final cut; did it originally underscore something with Palpatine at the end?

 

Thanks @Falstaft for confirming my theory. Guess I can read the basics of music after all.

[Smeltington 1,436]

It's also very possible that there isn't too much more Anthem of Evil material than what we already know about. You would think there'd be at least one major statement somewhere in the film, though. All the remaining material is so subtle. As it is, it's a bit of a Chamber of Secrets theme situation. Blink and you miss it in the score, but it gets a big, bold concert rendition (and in this case, end credits rendition as well).

[crumbs 14,287]

Yeah, the two biggest statements aren't even in the film (Join Me and Anthem of Evil), while the other is relegated to the credits.

 

And many times it could've been used in the film are instead scored with the Emperor's Theme (both new and tracked from previous films) or scored athematically (like a lot of the third act, outside the obligatory existing themes). 

 

The theme is a bit perplexing really. Seems like there were greater plans early in the sessions that fell by the wayside. 

[Jay 37,249]

I hope there are cool variations of it recorded we haven't heard yet

[Smeltington 1,436]

11 minutes ago, crumbs said:

Seems like there were greater plans early in the sessions

 

Who can tell really. There are quite a few themes in the ST that were barely used. And then there are themes like Luke and Leia that seemed more like an excuse for an OST concert track than anything. Of course, if anything else was recorded it would be great to have, to flesh out the theme a bit more in the score itself.

[Fabulin 3,506]

.

[King Mark 3,624]

I like it!

[igger6 894]

12 hours ago, Fabulin said:

5 months have passed, and I don't know about this Anthem of Evil...

 

if Giacchino's imperial theme were a cheap Williams hotdog, this would be Williams Brussels sprouts

 

Fabulin speaks the hard truth most eloquently.  It doesn't feel cheap and plastic like "Imperial Suite," but in a franchise that has known the Imperial March and Duel of the Fates, it doesn't live up to its title.  When it tries to kick into gear later in the concert suite, I get the image of someone carrying too much laundry and trying in vain not to drop any socks.  It almost hangs together, but it feels frantic and insufficient.

[artguy360 1,842]

Anthem of Evil works much better as quiet building music with a sense of dread and the seduction of evil than it does as loud brassy clashes.

[Arpy 4,145]

If Anthem of Evil were introduced earlier on in the trilogy, then maybe it would have more weight behind it. As it stands, with such little playtime in the film too, it's still a cool theme.

What seems strange to me is we have no clue, other than Rey's Theme, what Williams was planning with this trilogy - I think he was being coy when he said Ren/Ben's Theme shift was Abrams' idea, when it seems perfectly reasonable it was something Williams was going to try regardless. Who knows...

[MikeH 768]

17 hours ago, Fabulin said:

5 months have passed, and I don't know about this Anthem of Evil...

I would have loved for Anthem of Evil to have been an actual concert version of The Emperor’s Theme, yet still have this new theme interwoven as a sort of thematic extension. That, to me, would have been an appropriate musical summation of “the dark side” after nine films. 
 

The opening choral section is gorgeous and seductively evil, I would have gladly replaced all the meandering Snoke material from the previous two scores with it. In hindsight, the new theme in Anthem of Evil could’ve served as a broader theme for Kylo/Ben’s pull to the dark side throughout the whole trilogy. 

[DrTenma 116]

18 hours ago, Fabulin said:

5 months have passed, and I don't know about this Anthem of Evil...

 

if Giacchino's imperial theme were a cheap Williams hotdog, this would be Williams Brussels sprouts

 

The oposite has happened to me. I felt like you during the first listen and now is my top new theme in TROS. I love it both: when is quite building music and when it's a bombastic march. 

[crumbs 14,287]

I find it hard to judge like a lot of the sequel music, because we have such an incomplete picture of what Williams actually intended for these scores (two of them anyway). 

[Alex 2,833]

I always thought of the Anthem of Evil as a Ren/Emperor/Vader theme hybrid. A representation of all evil.