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The Rise of Skywalker - COMPLETE SCORE Discussion - SPOILERS ALLOWED!

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11 hours ago, crumbs said:

That's interesting! I guess he just scored the film wall to wall and wanted input into the volume of music in the final cut. And unsurprisingly, confirmation John scored the whole Death Star saber fight AND the infamous TIE flip sequence, but it was all lifted out:
 

 

Holy hell, if Mike ever gets to work on the sequel trilogy the most interesting score will be saved until last. It's like there's a completely unreleased JW score locked in Disney's archives!

 

On a side note, I've never heard of him attending a mixing session before! The closest thing that springs to mind is him checking with the sound team on Jurassic Park to hear their dinosaur vocalizations so he could ensure the music didn't clash with it (but that was before he even wrote the score).

 

I KNEW IT! I had a feeling that the Maestro had originally scored that sequence of Rey in the desert on Pasaana with Kylo Ren's modified TIE whisper coming at her, as well as the ENTIRE lightsaber duel between Rey and Kylo on the wreakage of the Death Star II. Sweet!

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I discovered today that a small part of the unused section of Join Me on the OST plays in the film right after Palpatine raises the ships from the ocean (?) on Exegol. From about 2:05 to 2:21. That whole minute or so that was left out of the final score for the film is one of the best moments from the OST, so I'm happy that at least PART of it is in there.

 

 

Also, the last 7 or 8 seconds of Prologue (FYC) plays in the film as Kylo picks up the Wayfinder in the Emperor's Throne Room. Not sure if it's been pointed out already. It could be the true ending of Daisy in a Veil, or it could've just been tracked in from elsewhere.

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On 2/1/2020 at 8:00 PM, dylanskie said:

I discovered today that a small part of the unused section of Join Me on the OST plays in the film right after Palpatine raises the ships from the ocean (?) on Exegol. From about 2:05 to 2:21. That whole minute or so that was left out of the final score for the film is one of the best moments from the OST, so I'm happy that at least PART of it is in there.

 

Nice catch!

 

On 2/1/2020 at 8:00 PM, dylanskie said:

Also, the last 7 or 8 seconds of Prologue (FYC) plays in the film as Kylo picks up the Wayfinder in the Emperor's Throne Room. Not sure if it's been pointed out already. It could be the true ending of Daisy in a Veil, or it could've just been tracked in from elsewhere.

 

Oh wow, that's interesting!  Another nice catch!

I'll be revising the entire cue list and cue-by-cue breakdown once the film comes out on home video

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It just dawned on me that part of the Knights of Ren Theme (at least as heard in "Fanfare and Prologue") is basically an inverted version of Horner's "danger" motif—albeit instead of resolving back on the first note like Horner's, JW's stays on the same pitch at the end.

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2 hours ago, Alex said:

You spotted the film way better than JJ!

 

Haha. I realize there is some serious bias here, but, man, it would have been so cool if the first 90 seconds of the film just had no sound except for the music up until Palpatine speaks and then you have his voice, the sound effects of the lightning, everything just hitting you all at once and stopping the music. The opening almost seems like it was designed to play like a silent film sequence anyways.

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20 minutes ago, Jay said:

I like the information crumbs provided, but not the attitude that was provided with it

 

Lol. Absolutely agreed.

 

2 hours ago, crumbs said:

a certain indecisive twat couldn't stop tampering with his embarrassment of a movie?

 

What did JJ do to personally hurt you so badly?

 

Seriously, I appreciate the info though. Some of us still like to hear the final chopped up mess. I've got loads of film edits I've done. It's just a matter of curiosity and getting to hear how the music went from point A to point B.

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I didn't realize that Crashing the Party was in that sequence. I knew that statement of Rey's theme sounded familiar! It's one of the best cues in TLJ... it's a shame it wasn't in the actual movie.

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2 hours ago, dylanskie said:

I didn't realize that Crashing the Party was in that sequence. I knew that statement of Rey's theme sounded familiar! It's one of the best cues in TLJ... it's a shame it wasn't in the actual movie.

 

Yep. Too bad we don't have an extended cut with isolated score. Lol. I'd love to hear that cue on it's own.

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11 hours ago, Taikomochi said:

Similarly, I am skeptical of claims that the heroic melody from Falcon Flight is a new theme/motif as many including that review claim. As far as I can tell, Falcon Flight was just chopped up and pasted all over the movie. I didn’t hear anything that sounded like that idea used in different contexts by Williams

 

I still think it's just Poe's Theme, lol.

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Well, it definitely does sound like Poe’s theme or a new variation of it to me, but not in the sense that Ben’s theme is later in the film. It’s not a new, recurring idea, but a variation that, as far as we know, was only written to appear that one time. Just sound editors did their thing and mucked it up.

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3 hours ago, crumbs said:

 

 

How could any JW fan not be disappointed by the treatment of his scores at JJ's hands? Certainly not taking it personally, I just have little respect for the film or decisions JJ made.

 

IMO he suffocated what should have been a grand exit from Williams, both by allowing the score to be undermixed (again) and changing the edit so thoroughly that it made Williams' musical intent incoherent. I thought AOTC was a series low with music editing but the majority was faithful to his intent. TROS is on another level, copy + pasting (and cutting, in the case of Speeder Chase) the score like a pre-schooler haphazardly glueing macaroni to cardboard.

 

My "attitude" is simply borne out of disappointment from the treatment of Williams' music. It deserved so much better for the final outing. 

 

I think you’re giving JJ too much credit. I’d argue that Disney should have a lot of the blame as well.

 

Not gonna lie, almost everything was more disappointing than I expected, including the score to some extent. But there’s a way to be disappointed and angry without the uhh...”attitude” I guess lol.

 

TBH, this last post here I take far less of an issue with than the first one. Lol. 

 

I will add though, as far as mixing and editing and what not...I’ve heard much worse. Not saying it’s great, but still.

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Love seeing some beefier thoughts from you regarding the score, Will. I've missed hearing your voice on here, but I certainly admire your efforts with school and hope that that is all going well. I'm glad you took the time to share divulge your thoughts in detail.

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2 hours ago, Will said:

 

 

First, I love the "We Go Together"/friendship theme. Particularly, ever since I first heard the concert arrangement I've been absolutely entranced by this bit:

 

 

That yearning ending to the melody is so gorgeous and incredibly romantic. Really shows how JW was pouring on the emotion and gravity in this cue. 

 

 

 yeah I pointed this out too

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10 hours ago, Falstaft (hiatus til TROS) said:

 

Ahh, but it's not just one time -- it's also unambiguously stated when Lando is revealed: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ZU1KN7T-aGBFdloSfeddUr1nKm0FQvfA

 

The appearance midway through the "film version" of the Speeder Chase does indeed appear to be tracked from "Falcon Flight" and pitch adjusted (up by minor third, not octave). So there are only two instances we know of that are autonomous. Despite the undeniable similarities in contour and rhythm, I still think it's not a mere variant of Poe's Theme -- the harmonic and melodic structure is actually not that close. If anything it's a variant of, or source for, the actual Speeder Chase motif, with which it shares a deeper tonal similarity. It's also not altogether unlike the later, more fleshed-out "Victory" theme, though that's a more tenuous connection...

 

There's something to the way it's introduced in "Falcon Flight" that just has to it the kind of rhetorical emphasis you associate with a "big new theme" in these scores. Even if it never is corroborated as such. I'm open to revising my categorization of the idea once the DVD comes out and we have a better chance to study the score. I'm certainly not averse to demoting things from leitmotif to incidental motif status!


I stand corrected. Is that the only appearance that’s not tracked out of Falcon Flight?

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18 hours ago, Will said:

In honor of Filmtracks' review being posted, I thought I'd (belatedly, I know) give some more detailed thoughts on this score. I've been awfully busy with school stuff these last couple months, so I just haven't really had the energy to write up my thoughts in a comprehensive way. It is difficult, literally hundreds of listens later, to recall exactly how I felt about TROS on first impression. But I will try my best to recall! 

 

First, I love the "We Go Together"/friendship theme. Particularly, ever since I first heard the concert arrangement I've been absolutely entranced by this bit:

 

 

That yearning ending to the melody is so gorgeous and incredibly romantic. Really shows how JW was pouring on the emotion and gravity in this cue. 

 

Second, and relatedly, I adore the phrases JW adds onto the friendship theme as the ship takes off:

 

 

Ever since I first heard this bit on the FYC, I've been mesmerized by how "inevitable" it seemed -- that classic Williams touch, where a melody seems at once new yet as if it had always been there, just waiting to be discovered. 

 

Of course, the main victory theme, heard most prominently in "Farewell," is also gorgeous. I remember initially loving it on the FYC, then not liking it as much because I played it too much (:lol:), but then I returned to adoring it. It's just so good. The whole thing almost brings tears to my eyes. We start with a bouncing joy, building anticipation, and then the tension is released in a marvelous orchestral climax. Just glorious:

 

 

Although I initially criticized the spotting, over time I've come to appreciate how the choir statement kicks in just as Poe removes his helmet to stare in awe. The swaying, romantic quality of the melody (particularly as performed in "Farewell" and on the concert suite) amazes me every time. It's almost like a love theme, but with more gravity (perhaps it's a love theme to represent JW & Star Wars? :)). The sense of finality imparted by the final notes is incredibly satisfying:

 

 

While I'm discussing the "Farewell"/victory theme, it's worth noting two other statements that seem somewhat unheralded by my fellow JWFans but, in my view, are just as worthy of celebration. The first begins with a slightly tentative expression of hope as the theme is introduced, giving way to a rip-roaring statement of the March of the Resistance (my favorite variation - "Finn and Poe, United" - in fact):

 

 

We then hear a gorgeous transition into the first sweeping rendition of "They Will Come" of the score (chronologically), although in the final film it's replaced with tracking:

 

 

The woodwinds really get a chance to shine there. Pure exuberance!! In a similar vein is the opening of "Rescue":

 

 

Those brass stabs are classic Williams. I only wish that bit lasted longer. So uplifting and heroic. (Also, how 'bout those 3 cymbal crashes at 3:17? :))

 

Anyway, I also recall really enjoying the opening to "Reunion" on first listen - sounds rather like 80s Williams:

 

 

The transition into Luke's theme and then the Force theme is so effortless. All of which makes the almost verbatim reprise rest of the cue so massively disappointing, to be sure. But still, the beginning makes it worth it. Although actually, hmm, there was one other moment that I really like from later in "Reunion" - the transition into Rey's theme:

 

 

I wish 2:17-2:21 were a standalone melody! 

 

Last but not least, "Speeder Chase" is of course terrific, and one little somewhat unheralded moment is this sort of brief call-and-response between the brass and percussion (the brass flourish followed by the two percussive booms): 

 

 

It's always felt to me like some kind of wild dance beat. So groovy. 

 

Of course, in any score there will be disappointments, and there were certainly some here. For example, I was not an enormous fan of listening to the villain material (although it was well done, as always from JW). And some enormous parts of the dramatic arc were left off the FYC and OST (Lando's Arrival and Rey's Training, as well as a couple others), making the listening experience feel a bit incomplete. That problem is compounded by the fact that the closing "Finale" cue is so shamelessly filled with unsatisfying copy-pastes, in stark contrast to, say, the TFA credits. 

 

But on the whole, the bad is outweighed by the good. As shown above, there were several cues in this score that truly made my heart soar (as well as others, like "The Speeder Chase," that got stuck in my head!) and that is all I could have asked for. So thanks, John. 

 

Great post! And I agree with almost everything you said here—except I don't think "Reunion" is quite as disappointing as you seem to feel it is. Do you not like the We Go Together statement at 3:27? There are some subtle differences from earlier renditions, and of course I love how the upper strings join in for the second half of the tune. The way it ends (more of a minor key feel) also differs from earlier statements, I believe. It's not simply a copy-paste from earlier.

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1 hour ago, Tydirium said:

 

Great post! And I agree with almost everything you said here—except I don't think "Reunion" is quite as disappointing as you seem to feel it is. Do you not like the We Go Together statement at 3:27? There are some subtle differences from earlier renditions, and of course I love how the upper strings join in for the second half of the tune. The way it ends (more of a minor key feel) also differs from earlier statements, I believe. It's not simply a copy-paste from earlier.

 

Yeah, you're right - it's not a total disappointment because I, too, enjoy the ending statement of "We Go Together," which is indeed new (unlike the middle of the cue). That said, even the ending is a tad disappointing (or at least was on first listen), given that I was expecting bombast to rival the end of "Farewell" or the beginning of "Reunion." 

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20 hours ago, Will said:

Although I initially criticized the spotting, over time I've come to appreciate how the choir statement kicks in just as Poe removes his helmet to stare in awe. The swaying, romantic quality of the melody (particularly as performed in "Farewell" and on the concert suite) amazes me every time. It's almost like a love theme, but with more gravity (perhaps it's a love theme to represent JW & Star Wars? :)). The sense of finality imparted by the final notes is incredibly satisfying.

Yes! Exactly! It's not wasted as others' believe, it's perfect.

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55 minutes ago, Arpy said:

Yes! Exactly! It's not wasted as others' believe, it's perfect.

 

To be clear, I do wish "Farewell" had been mixed louder w/ minimal SFX. But that's a common complaint of mine, not unique to this scene. 

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I still don't recognize the two new themes when I listen to the score.  They don't represent a character like the vast majority of his other SW themes, so they just seem random and blend in with everything else.

 

TROS is my least favorite SW score. 

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What does their attachment to a character or place or anything have to do with their recogniseability and distinguishability? They're still in there enough.

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4 minutes ago, Demodex said:

I still don't recognize the two new themes when I listen to the score.  They don't represent a character like the vast majority of his other SW themes, so they just seem random and blend in with everything else.

 

TROS is my least favorite SW score. 

Sorry to hear your disability, for many of us they are great. 

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On 1/22/2020 at 12:09 AM, martybmusic said:

I was curious about that as well. If memory serves, both TFA and TLJ had their piano sheet music published within a week or so of the theatrical release.

 

|| Warning || entering tin-foil hat territory... ||

 

I've been thinking about a few interesting & at first seemingly unrelated features of the TROS soundtrack/score/production (forgive me if someone has already leaped to these conclusions). 

  • Delay of sheet music publication.
  • Inclusion of The Imperial March in a prominent position in the End Credits suite.
  • Relatively minimal screentime of the highly publicized Sith Troopers in the theatrical cut.
  • Repeated inclusion of unknown minor march in promotional material, at first in the Anthony Daniels TotalFilm tweets, then rather conspicuously at the start of the livestream of the premiere (to my ear & taste, I would've sworn this was a new Williams work and concert suite from the upcoming score). 

Given the above, is it too wild to speculate that JW composed a theme for these Sith Troopers, but developments in the film's edit led to it being cut out entirely? Rolling with this idea a bit, the 3 or 4 brief shots in which the troopers appear all happen while other thematic material is already underway - it seems plausible to me that those short moments wouldn't include quotes of those themes and so the idea would then be left absent entirely (this is not even to grapple with the liberal repositioning of cues in the final cut).

 

Looking at a somewhat similar situation - the score to TFA and John's motif for the First Order - with the score to Hux's speech dialed out (along with perhaps other edits), there are to my count only 2-3 appearances of the theme (as the shuttle takes Poe to the star destroyer, as the resistance discuss their battle plans, and as the x-wings come out of hyperspace for the bombing run). The motif was effectively held back from a place of prominence in the final cut and not surprisingly left completely out of the set of ongoing themes going forward in the trilogy.

 

For the sake of argument (and again, please forgive the theorizing), let's say this is what happened - a removed March of the Sith Troopers.  For me, the above peculiarities start to fit together. With the theme making zero appearances in the final cut, JW pulls it from the soundtrack and from the other key spot where he features his new concert suite material - the end credits. The new theme is replaced with The Imperial March there (the motif of which at least appears several times in the score).

 

Continuing with all this speculation, whenever this change was made it was soon enough to hit the release window for the digital and physical versions of the soundtrack. But is it possible that the sheet music publication had to operate within a different window and Hal Leonard weren't able to correct the physical books in time? We already know that the Art of TROS book as well as the novelization have both been delayed (along with the sheet music, much later than the releases for TFA and TLJ). 

 

Take this all in the spirit of wild conjecture :) Looking forward to the piano arrangements, and hopefully the Signature Edition concert score for 'The Rise of Skywalker' whenever it is they're eventually published. 

 

I love this theory. Especially in light of the fact that I found this last score disappointing (perhaps Williams just wasn't inspired enough by the execrable movie). I was hoping for at least one stand out theme. The others are forgettable. Flaccid almost. A real shame. 

       It would be great if Williams had indeed written this Sith Trooper Fanfare. However was it not unequivocally established that another composer wrote it? Whoever did it is a master of imitation. 

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52 minutes ago, stravinsky said:

I love this theory. Especially in light of the fact that I found this last score disappointing (perhaps Williams just wasn't inspired enough by the execrable movie). I was hoping for at least one stand out theme. The others are forgettable. Flaccid almost. A real shame. 

       It would be great if Williams had indeed written this Sith Trooper Fanfare. However was it not unequivocally established that another composer wrote it? Whoever did it is a master of imitation. 

 

Yes, I discovered it and made a thread for it. It's a piece of stock music called "Space Battalions" composed by James Brett.

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