The Rise of Skywalker The Rise of Skywalker - COMPLETE SCORE Discussion - SPOILERS ALLOWED!

[Alex 2,833]

1 hour ago, Arpy said:

You'll be waiting another forty years.

Well, I’ll be 65 then, so I’ll be OK!

[Giftheck 916]

8 minutes ago, Alex said:

Well, I’ll be 65 then, so I’ll be OK!

 

"You'll be dead!"

[Jay 37,284]

On 4/9/2020 at 9:32 PM, JohnnyD said:

This is the entirety of Rey Arrives On Exegol. Enjoy.

 

 

39_Rey_Arrives_On_Exegol.m4a 3.96 MB · 34 downloads

 

12 hours ago, JohnnyD said:

Jay, I should correct you on one thing. There is no alternate take of Rey Arrives On Exegol. The section tracked into Kylo Ren's flight to Exegol is NOT an alternate take, but the final part of the same cue. I put the complete cue a few posts above this one; you should take a listen. It is quite illuminating.

 

This is just speculation right?  It's possible it was written as you've edited but it's possible that each part of the film draws from different takes as well right?

[Giftheck 916]

I think JohnnyD is correct: the scene where Rey arrives on Exegol uses everything up to the Rey Theme, then cuts out for the Emperor's Theme from ROTS. The sequence was probably longer when the film was scored. I don't think either scene uses a different take either.

[Jay 37,284]

Listening more I think I can be down with that.  Nice work, JohnnyD!

[Smeltington 1,436]

13 hours ago, Jay said:

[new cue] 1M15 Vader's Castle tracked in for the shots of the Fleet rising

 

So in the Nov 11 cut, 1m15 was newly written for a particular scene, but instead was tracked into another scene? It was never used in the intended place in any cut?

[Giftheck 916]

Just now, Smeltington said:

 

So in the Nov 11 cut, 1m15 was newly written for a particular scene, but instead was tracked into another scene? It was never used in the intended place in any cut?

 

From what I can gather based on following the plot leaks for a while before the film came out, Mustafar kind of weaved in and out for a bit, so it's more than likely that there was a cut where it was used properly.

[Jay 37,284]

I'm only assuming its tracked based on the title; The powerful Imperial March statemet works well with the shots of the fleet rising.  But the Nov 11 data tells us that's the name, so we must assume it's a cue originally written for a section of Mustafar.  It's not clear in the final cut, but the dudes Kylo is fighting in the first scene are supposed to be people loyal to Vader who are living in his old place (the place we saw in Rogue One).  That whole battle is supposed to be taking place outside his place, which is presumably why Williams wrote a cue called 1M15 Vader's Castle as some kind of insert or rewrite of some kind.   And then JJ dropped any shots that showed they were near his place, but liked the Imperial March statement so used it for the shot of the fleet rising.

And we know absolutely nothing about any cuts of the film other than the final cut and the Nov 11 data, its all speculation based on cue titles and numbers, reddit leaks, novelization, pictures from the visual dictionary, etc etc

[Romão 2,274]

I really feel sorry for Williams. For all the praise he gets from JJ in the behind the scenes footage, the director really has absolute disregard for musical flow and allowing the music to soar in key scenes. I hope he never works with him ever again

[Giftheck 916]

Yep, and we used to slate George Lucas for much the same thing after the Prequels. George Lucas treated his music with reverence reserved for religious texts by comparison.

[King Mark 3,625]

well the Prequel were mixed horribly

 

 

The  only remaining great mix is The Empire Strikes Back .Saw a theatrical performance on the Disney Cruise. It was like listening to the OST on good speakers with the movie playing in the background. Still very superior to The Last Jedi considered the best of the sequel mixes. Why couln't they do this with all films

 

ANH has a Ben Burrt butchered mix now and RotJ doesn't sound as great probably due to the recordings (also saw both in the Disney Theater)

[Giftheck 916]

5 minutes ago, King Mark said:

well the Prequel were mixed horribly

 

If the Prequels were mixed horribly, what do you think that says about the Sequels, given the comparison?

[King Mark 3,625]

About the same except Last Jedi closer to OT

[Giftheck 916]

Actually, what I was implying was that the mixing of the Sequels is worse. Waaaay worse.

[King Mark 3,625]

I haven't seen the prequels in a long time maybe your right, but I remember you can't hear a lot of cues in TPM and AotC unless you have rear channel rips or something

To me it's clear now why ESB cemented me as a John williams fan. If it had been mixed like the sequels I might not have noticed the score back then and not become a JW fan

[JohnnyD 1,220]

3 hours ago, Jay said:

Listening more I think I can be down with that.  Nice work, JohnnyD!

 

You're welcome. I love delving into the Maestro's work. You get a few surprises you would not have gotten the first listen, like how there is a rendition of Rey's Theme played by muted horns accompanied by the frantic and energized strings. 

[Will 2,215]

5 hours ago, Romão said:

I really feel sorry for Williams. For all the praise he gets from JJ in the behind the scenes footage, the director really has absolute disregard for musical flow and allowing the music to soar in key scenes. I hope he never works with him ever again

 

It's tricky for me to decide whether J.J. or Rian treated JW better. On the one hand, TLJ had some really great moments for the music to shine like this one:

 

 

And the microediting in TLJ seemed better than in TFA or TROS. 

 

But on the other hand, TLJ also felt like Rian relied too much on giving JW a temp track rather than letting him make his own choices (likely a heavily-ROTS temp track). I believe the documentaries provided some partial confirmation of what I'd suspected anyway: For TFA (and presumably TROS) JW wasn't given a temp track (or was told he didn't have to follow it) at the spotting session, whereas for TLJ Rian relied more on the temp track than a proper spotting session. Can't remember the specific sources for that though (and some of it is based on inferences). 

[Smeltington 1,436]

Well Rian did show more respect for the music, but in terms of the compositions, IMO Williams sounds more inspired on both TFA and TROS compared to TLJ. However, I do think the music heard in TLJ works really, really well in the film itself, so maybe these films just called for slightly different treatments.

[artguy360 1,843]

TLJ is more closely scored than TFA or TROS with stretches of original music flowing smoothly without noticeable micro-editing (although still present) and the movie itself has key moments where the score stands out and has room to breath. In general the mix is very score-friendly. However, TLJ does not feature the same wealth or highlighting of new thematic material the way TFA, and to a lesser extent, TROS do. Perhaps because of the film narrative itself, Luke's exile material received no development and in fact disappears relatively early in the film and Rose's theme is treated in fairly one note fashion. But however again, TFA and TROS are both sonically waaaay too busy and the film edit rarely allows the score to stand out and the micro-editing kills any sense of musical flow. 

[DominicCobb 194]

I'd agree, but really TROS doesn't do its new themes any favors when it comes to highlighting them

[crumbs 14,300]

One of the best statements of the Victory theme is replaced with tracked music from TFA, for crying out loud. The score is treated like newspaper in a ransom note.

[Demodex 557]

Is this movie out on Blu Ray yet?  It seemed like we had fan-made film edits of the other SW scores by now. 

[crumbs 14,300]

Yeah, for a month or something. There's been rear channel rips floating around for weeks.

[Demodex 557]

Well I guess I'll keep looking. 

[DrTenma 116]

16 hours ago, Smeltington said:

Well Rian did show more respect for the music, but in terms of the compositions, IMO Williams sounds more inspired on both TFA and TROS compared to TLJ. However, I do think the music heard in TLJ works really, really well in the film itself, so maybe these films just called for slightly different treatments.

 

I agree, the new material in TFA and TROS is far superior than in TLJ, but the latter has a much better use of the music. I think that Johnson is a better director than JJ by 12 parsecs. The way they work with their composer is also very different and although I think JJ did better there, after so many micro edits and changes the result is a very choppy score in a movie full of noise. The sound mixing in TLJ is great, and at the end I guess that Johnson knew precisely what did he wanted as the score and asked Williams that. A little more of freedom would had made for a even better score but is good enough as it is.

[Smeltington 1,436]

Agree that Rian is a much better filmmaker. But I will say for JJ that his movies are very entertaining (if somewhat hollow), and very over the top, which probably helped them elicit bombastic, engaging material from Williams.

 

I daresay JW also went a bit above and beyond with his music for TROS, writing new themes even when they weren't "necessary". We didn't need a trio theme, "evil" theme, victory theme, etc but we got them anyway, and they were really good. So he may have been channeling some this-is-my-last-Star-War feels, doing more than was called for, as he so often does.

[Demodex 557]

I'll disagree. The music for TROS is the least interesting and memorable of the ST.  Of all 9 films it may be my least favorite score. 

 

Is the Anthem of Evil even in the movie?

[Jay 37,284]

Yea

[Romão 2,274]

TROS is a score that really cannot be judged by what and how it is heard in the film. It does it a great disservice

[Demodex 557]

Well then I really do need a film edit of the score. 

[Jay 37,284]

What you need is an avatar!

[Oozer 25]

Forgive me if this is old, or incorrect, but I noticed that the first time you start one of the Blu-ray discs of the film (either the movie or special features discs), there's a little more to the beginning of the menu music. I don't know if it's more of the 1m20 Rey Training cue or an intro that's been tacked on to it, but I figured I'd mention it. I popped the special features disc into my computer and ripped the track so you can hear what I'm talking about.

Special_Features_Blu-ray_first_boot_menu.flac

[Jay 37,284]

It's the end of the cue 

[Will 2,215]

10 hours ago, Smeltington said:

Agree that Rian is a much better filmmaker. But I will say for JJ that his movies are very entertaining (if somewhat hollow), and very over the top, which probably helped them elicit bombastic, engaging material from Williams.

 

Yeah TFA will always be my favorite film, and favorite score, from this trilogy. Such a fun movie. 

[Remco 685]

I’ll never forget watching TLJ for the first time in cinema and hearing that well-mixed wall-to-wall  score wash over me. An experience I’ll probably never have again with a brand new JW score. TFA and TROS were disappointing in comparison, even though in a way they’re compositionally maybe more interesting.

 

The more about TROS gets revealed, the more disappointed in the movie I get.

[DrTenma 116]

19 hours ago, Smeltington said:

Agree that Rian is a much better filmmaker. But I will say for JJ that his movies are very entertaining (if somewhat hollow), and very over the top, which probably helped them elicit bombastic, engaging material from Williams.

 

I daresay JW also went a bit above and beyond with his music for TROS, writing new themes even when they weren't "necessary". We didn't need a trio theme, "evil" theme, victory theme, etc but we got them anyway, and they were really good. So he may have been channeling some this-is-my-last-Star-War feels, doing more than was called for, as he so often does.

 

Yes, I agree with that too! I usually like, or even love, JJ films. I saw two days ago again TFA and I think is a very good film. He also he has the ability to get the best of Giacchino and Williams, I think that with Trevorrow the score of Episode IX would have been less interesting from a thematic point of view. Precisely what I love so much of TROS score is how Williams composed so many interesting (and unnecessary) themes. 

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

It’s not like Williams is unknown for writing great scores for subpar films. At least half of his catalogue can be described as such.

 

But it is nagging me that the best sequel film had the weakest score. Gosh darn it.

[Demodex 557]

4 minutes ago, Docteur Qui said:

But it is nagging me that the best sequel film had the weakest score.

 

What do you consider the best sequel film?  For me, my favorite sequel film also has the best score. 

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

TLJ. It's not a bad score by any means, but it's obvious JW wasn't as inspired as he clearly was by TFA and TROS. Chalk that up to limited exotic locations and new characters, heavy reliance on temp tracks, or the lack of pushing from Johnson to get him to think outside the box. A Rey/Ren connection theme is the trilogy's greatest missed opportunity.

[Demodex 557]

TLJ is my favorite ST film and at first I was really disappointed in the score but I've grown to love it.  

I really don't find anything that interesting about the TROS score. 

The TFA score is good, but I don't love it like I do the score to TLJ. 

 

I think how much I like a film really influences how much I like the score. 

Looking at each trilogy separately, I rank each score in the same order I rank the movies, with only one exception. 

 

Come to think of it, I think that's true of the Indiana Jones series as well. 

[artguy360 1,843]

The underscore across the entire ST is lacking compared to the underscore across the OT and PT. JW seemed particularly inspired when it came to the underscore for TPM, where even non-thematic music had a level of polish, richness, and flow rarely found in the ST at all. To me, there are very few non-thematic musical gems in the ST compared to the PT.

[Tom 4,634]

I understand why some find the score in the film to TROS is disappointing.  For instance, the editing out of the Speeder Chase is the single most affront to Williams music in a SW project.  I do not understand how someone could think the two new major themes are not interesting.  Minimally they are solid, interesting themes, but I think that they are both top-tier SW themes.  

[crumbs 14,300]

45 minutes ago, artguy360 said:

The underscore across the entire ST is lacking compared to the underscore across the OT and PT.

 

I think Williams just made a conscious decision to prioritize his time on action cues (which presumably take longer to write at his age) and streamline the underscore. It wouldn't have helped that he was constantly rewriting TFA (and TROS) and the edit was constantly changing, which undoubtedly contributed to this mindset.

 

The lush, detailed orchestrations of TPM's underscore would've been a waste of time on TFA/TROS, considering how his scores were treated. And really, he'd already made this shift by the time AOTC/ROTS rolled around, with underscore not significantly more interesting than the ST (though perhaps this was a reflection of his busier schedule when writing the latter 2 prequels than the lighter schedule around 1999 for TPM).

 

Still, the ST is a step up from the likes of KOCS, which has some of the most uninteresting underscore I've heard from Williams.

[King Mark 3,625]

The new themes are amazing

 

I think it's the best sequel score if you disregard how you hear it in the film

[DominicCobb 194]

I will say about TLJ, even if it is the least of the trilogy in terms of new themes, I’d argue in every other way it is the best score of the three. The cleaner editing certainly helps, but in general it is a more fully realized and coherent work. Nearly all the best cues from the trilogy come from that film, in my opinion, because they are ones that are so closely linked with the film’s sequences. The Supremacy, Holdo’s Resolve, The Battle of Crait, The Spark, etc. As a film score, rather than a soundtrack in isolation, it excels.

[Fabulin 3,510]

.

[crumbs 14,300]

1 hour ago, DominicCobb said:

I will say about TLJ, even if it is the least of the trilogy in terms of new themes, I’d argue in every other way it is the best score of the three. The cleaner editing certainly helps, but in general it is a more fully realized and coherent work. Nearly all the best cues from the trilogy come from that film, in my opinion, because they are ones that are so closely linked with the film’s sequences. The Supremacy, Holdo’s Resolve, The Battle of Crait, The Spark, etc. As a film score, rather than a soundtrack in isolation, it excels.

 

Rian clearly understood (and respected) that the music needs to take centre stage for key dramatic sequences in Star Wars, something JJ completely disregarded outside the obligatory musical closing sequence (Jedi Steps and A New Home).

 

The key difference is that JJ didn't construct his sequences around music; he conformed the music to his vision (with a hacksaw when necessary). That is not how Star Wars music is meant to function in these films and is a disservice to Williams' music. Contrast that to the big musical moments in TLJ where the entire sequence is crafted around the score, like all the examples you mentioned (plus Paige's death, another powerful musical moment that JJ and his sound team would have drowned in obnoxious sound effects).

 

The music never has the chance to breathe in JJ's films, let alone take centre stage, among all the shouting and noise.

[Arpy 4,145]

My parents caught up with TLJ and TRoS last week and I sat in for a few moments; I rarely listen to TLJ as much as the other two scores, but there was an undeniable power that the score had in the film, a presence that could be felt. The same couldn't be said for TRoS. 

 

 

[crumbs 14,300]

It's staggering how effective the music is for that film. Outside a few cues in the dying minutes, nothing in TROS comes close to these heights:

 

 

I just can't relate to people who single out the TLJ score as weak or uninspired. What film were they watching? Because Rian and his sound team clearly adored the score Williams wrote and temped the film to give the music the maximum impact.

[Holko 9,499]

11 minutes ago, crumbs said:

J didn't construct his sequences around music; he conformed the music to his vision (with a hacksaw when necessary). That is not how Star Wars music is meant to function in these films and is a disservice to Williams' music

 

looks at Sail Barge Assault, TPM last third, AotC, RotS

...yeah, Rian may be the odd one out after all. (JJ is still the worst offender by far)