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The Rise of Skywalker - COMPLETE SCORE Discussion - SPOILERS ALLOWED!


Jay

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6 hours ago, artguy360 said:

The trio theme is one in a long series of instances where JW's music elevates a scene and compensates for what the scene is going for but the writing and acting don't carry off.

Compensating is essentially a film composer's job.  So the worse the film, the better as far as I'm concerned!

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1 hour ago, Not Mr. Big said:

Compensating is essentially a film composer's job.  So the worse the film, the better as far as I'm concerned!

That must be why the prequel scores are so good. For TPM specifically, maybe JW watched the film and thought "these dialogue scenes are boring as fuck, I better write the most intricate, closely scored underscore ever to compensate" because that's exactly what he did.

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On 3/26/2020 at 6:13 AM, crumbs said:

Having studied the 5.1 mix of this sequence [The Speeder Chase] ad nauseum, I can provide more detail than my original breakdown.

  • The album ending isn't an "album ending"; it appears JW's intended ending was replaced with an insert/new ending, likely for tonal reasons
  • The opening of the OST track isn't microedited; the first 30-40 seconds of the cue fits the film fine (I don't know why it's looped/edited in the film)
  • The fragments of random action music I couldn't place are from Rey Trains

 

During the first 20 seconds it's not actually looped/edited in the film. It's microedited in the OST. Film version contains bars not present in the OST, these appear to be repeated sections in the first 20 seconds, but they are not. The first one that's the most audible is when Poe gets under the speeder.

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  • 3 weeks later...
1 hour ago, Arpy said:

J.J. Abrams and his editors need to be tried for crimes against humanity.

 

Technically JW microedited the OST track (and tagged on the album ending), which is a separate issue to JJ's hatchet job on the cue in the film.

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16 hours ago, Pando said:

 

Here's the original composition of The Speeder Chase cue before it was cut to pieces. It's over four and a half minutes long.

 

 

Wow, there's a lot of unreleased material in there. What is the source of this extended version? 

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12 hours ago, Pando said:

 

Here's the original composition of The Speeder Chase cue before it was cut to pieces. It's over four and a half minutes long.

 

 

This is a beautifully done mock-up, and an invaluable resource for those of us interested in what the cue in its full form would sound like. Thank you @Pando

 

Quick, unbelievably minute question: are you sure the tuba/bassoon bass-note at1:49 is supposed to be a low G#, as opposed to a A#/Bb? That's what's in the piano reduction, and is, as far as I can tell, used in OST version at 1:39. Don't get me wrong, I like what it does to the chord progression, just want to make sure I'm not hallucinating chromatic basslines here! {update: thanks!!}

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11 hours ago, Falstaft said:

This is a beautifully done mock-up, and an invaluable resource for those of us interested in what the cue in its full form would sound like. Thank you @Pando

 

Quick, unbelievably minute question: are you sure the tuba/bassoon bass-note at1:49 is supposed to be a low G#, as opposed to a A#/Bb? That's what's in the piano reduction, and is, as far as I can tell, used in OST version at 1:39. Don't get me wrong, I like what it does to the chord progression, just want to make sure I'm not hallucinating chromatic basslines here!

 

Yup, you're correct. Trombones were wrong also. Fixed now. Thank you, and for the kind words as well :)

You might want to correct (or remove) the SC link in your quote as I had to re-upload it.

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

The first 2/3 seems to sync up flawlessly to the film! It appears there weren't many edits to the scene itself until toward the end when the music completely desyncs. I cut that part out considering it was just a huge mess.

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FW_DfbFcBHdy8X1LrpIW6fUKWl4IINyp/view

 

Hopefully you can include the updated audio, I fixed it earlier. Thanks

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2 hours ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

The first 2/3 seems to sync up flawlessly to the film! It appears there weren't many edits to the scene itself until toward the end when the music completely desyncs. I cut that part out considering it was just a huge mess.

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FW_DfbFcBHdy8X1LrpIW6fUKWl4IINyp/view

 

While it may seem to work (since there's action going on all the time), the original cue points don't really line up at all in that clip.

 

In this trailer clip below you can see a bit how the original music fits the cues at various scenes in the beginning (like the string staccato at "they fly now"), and it's already cut short. It's possible that JW composed this music early on for a digital storyboard/animation, and they didn't end up shooting or using some scenes so they had to cut out the music as well (but I don't know the timeline what was done when). Movie is one thing, but the OST should have used the original music; I don't understand why they had to cut that up so much.

 

 

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  • 5 months later...

Wasn't sure where else to post this, but I stumbled across an interesting excerpt of unknown music from the Japanese TROS premiere:

 

 

I think at the time we predicted it might be from TROS, but obviously no such cue appears in the film (and the section at 0:53 doesn't sound like a real orchestra).

 

Anyway, the music was mixed in with excerpts from TFA and TLJ, but no other TROS music, so it's probably just random library music or from something Kiner/Haab did. Thought I'd post it anyway, in case someone recognised it.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Just realised this ascending figure, first appearing in Fleeing Kijimi (0:10 - 0:14) makes another return later on:

 

Then again under Ren's transformation to Ben in Parents (1:24 - 1:28)

 

then again, more hurried at 1:34 - 1:41: 

 

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6 hours ago, Arpy said:

Just realised this ascending figure, first appearing in Fleeing Kijimi (0:10 - 0:14) makes another return later on:

 

 

Great catch, @Arpy! IIRC, there are a quite a few more instances of that motif, or something like it. This comes to mind:

 

 

Suspect it's not an intentional or meaningful repetition, but rather a melodic gesture that was just sort of on Williams mind while composing TROS. Still, maybe worth adding to the lexicon as another incidental motif!

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5 hours ago, artguy360 said:

For some reason I always thought that rising string gesture was related to one of Kylo Ren's motifs. 

Me too! I also noticed that motif and immediately thought it was some variation of Kylo...

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On 2/16/2021 at 5:06 PM, Falstaft said:

 

Great catch, @Arpy! IIRC, there are a quite a few more instances of that motif, or something like it. This comes to mind:

 

 

Suspect it's not an intentional or meaningful repetition, but rather a melodic gesture that was just sort of on Williams mind while composing TROS. Still, maybe worth adding to the lexicon as another incidental motif!

It reminds me of Shore's use of rising scales and clusters.

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On 2/16/2021 at 8:06 AM, Falstaft said:

Suspect it's not an intentional or meaningful repetition, but rather a melodic gesture that was just sort of on Williams mind while composing TROS.


I’ve noticed another little germ of an idea that seems to pop up fairly often in the sequel trilogy scores:

image.png

For example, 1:35 in ‘The Old Death Star’: 

 

 

Or 2:10 in ‘Main Title and Escape’ (with a slightly different rhythm):

 


Reminds me of Liszt’s Les Préludes.

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13 minutes ago, BrotherSound said:


I’ve noticed another little germ of an idea that seems to pop up fairly often in the sequel trilogy scores:

 

 

Nice one -- it's definitely scattered across these scores, TLJ in particular. Think I included a form of it as an "Bad Feelings on Ahch-To" incidental motif. Its contour is also sort of suggested by the "Desperation" theme and its derivatives from time to time.

 

 

 

18 minutes ago, BrotherSound said:

Reminds me of Liszt’s Les Préludes.

 

Not bad company to be in! (Or the Beethoven "Muss es sein?" cell that inspired Liszt, and Franck as well in his Dm symphony)

 

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  • 4 weeks later...

So a reference to Duel of the Fates was indeed recorded! Seems I was wrong in assuming it was BS. :P

 

Also now it appears we know for certain that the chanting is technically part of the score, not just sound effects added in post.

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3 hours ago, CGCJ said:

7M28 Seeing Sights

 

Interesting, so it was an actual cue title after all. I wonder if that means Coming Together and Rescue were also prototype cue titles that haven't turned up yet? I don't think it's 100% confirmed what cue title comprises FYC Coming Together either (if we believe the November edit, it's 7M30 More Action).

 

It's crazy how many cues exist for that final act that went unused/were revised. And we know it all got recorded because fragments were tracked all across the film! 

 

This is a quick guess of what the major stretches of music in the final act are covered by:

  • 7M12 Seven Twelve (OST Battle of the Resistance Part A)
  • 7M12A Horses #2 (OST Battle of the Resistance Part B)
  • 7M20 Approaching The Throne (OST Approaching the Throne Part A)
  • 7M30 More Action (OST Approaching the Throne Part B)
  • The Crowd Joins In (OST Approaching the Throne Part C??)
  • 7M21 Parents (FYC Parents with artificial ending)
  • Coming Together ??? (FYC Coming Together, cue title unclear)
  • Hero Fight ??? (unreleased Rey/Ren fight sequence)
  • 8M8 On Their Knees (only partially used)
  • 7M36 Dunkirk (self-explanatory, unreleased)
  • 7M28 Seeing Sights (OST The Force Is With You Part A)
  • 7M38 I Am All The Sith (OST The Force Is With You Part B)
  • 8M10 Success and Sliding (FYC Rescue)
  • 8M11A Dropping The Sabre (OST Farewell Part A)
  • 8M14 Ben to Rey (OST Farewell Part B)

 

Of course, any of these could be exchanged for any of the following!

  • 7M32 Make The Sacrifice
  • 7M44 Name That Tune
  • 8M1 Approaching the Emperor #2
  • 8M4 Psalm of the Sith
  • 8M5 Jumping The Chain
  • 8M4C1*
  • 8M4C2
  • 8M4D
  • 8M5B
  • 8M7 Big Ship Blows Up
  • 8M8C Chorus
  • Chant 1
  • Chant 2
  • Emperor's Attack
  • Rey and Ren
  • The Dunkirk Shot

 

Hopefully we can get cue numbers for those name-only cues someday. That would help pin things down...

 

Wild speculation but I wonder if 8M4C1 and 8M4C2 are two different versions of choral overlays for 8M4 Psalm of the Sith, possibly the first half of OST Anthem of Evil? Considering the usage of C in 8M8C Chorus likely represents Choir, it might be the same with 8M4.

 

39 minutes ago, BrotherSound said:

Ah, looks like an earlier version of 7M20 Approaching the Throne!

 

This is so confusing!!

 

So if we have Approaching the Emperor #2 from the prototype edit of reel 8, does that mean there was an Approaching the Emperor #1 at some stage? Maybe an early version of the scene in reel 1, later retitled Approaching the Nursery? Or simply JW getting confused?

 

The #2 presumably doesn't designate revision in this instance, because 8M1 corresponds to the prototype version of reel 8 that JW initially scored (rather than reel 7, like the rest of the revised climax cues).

 

39 minutes ago, BrotherSound said:

I think JW may have switched over to even numbers at some point, too: there’s not a single odd number 1M20+ or 7M30+, out of 10 known cues.

 

Leaving odd numbers spare as placeholders was probably an insurance policy for inevitable inserts/revisions requested later.

 

He was probably trying to avoid a repeat of what happened with his cue numbering on TFA. Clearly he started that score with a 'conventional' cue numbering system and it ended up like this:

  • 1M3A R The First Order Approaches
  • 1M3A The First Order Approaches
  • 1M3B R The Attack On The Village
  • 1M3B The Attack on the Village
  • 1M3C I've Seen Too Much
  • 1M3D The Attack on the Village
  • 1M4 R The Arrival of Kylo Ren
  • 1M4 The Arrival of Kylo Ren
  • 1M4A Introductions
  • 1M4B Landing
  • 1M5 Alt. 2 Insert The Scavenger
  • 1M5 Alt. 2 The Scavenger
  • 1M5 Alt. New Intro The Scavenger
  • 1M5 Alt2 A Insert The Scavenger
  • 1M5 Alt2 R The Scavenger
  • 1M5 The Scavenger (with fixes)

 

Could explain why he jumped to higher numbers and new titles for revisions this time, renaming rather than just appending R to the existing cue.

 

Return to Tattooine is the only cue actually named ALT in the title. If I had to speculate, that probably means JW himself wrote two versions concurrently (rather than being a revision requested by JJ).

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23 minutes ago, crumbs said:

So if we have Approaching the Emperor #2 from the prototype edit of reel 8, does that mean there was an Approaching the Emperor #1 at some stage? Maybe an early version of the scene in reel 1, later retitled Approaching the Nursery? Or simply JW getting confused?

 

Pretty sure something like that happened, though if they changed it for spoiler purposes, how’d ‘The Emperors Lives’ get through? 🤦‍♂️

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25 minutes ago, crumbs said:

So if we have Approaching the Emperor #2 from the prototype edit of reel 8, does that mean there was an Approaching the Emperor #1 at some stage? Maybe an early version of the scene in reel 1, later retitled Approaching the Nursery?

 

An early sketch of the Approaching the Nursery cue was originally titled Approaching the Emperor. So yes, the #2 seems to refer to the Approaching the Throne cue rather than a revision of the same cue.

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6 minutes ago, BrotherSound said:

 

Pretty sure something like that happened, though if they changed it for spoiler purposes, how’d ‘The Emperors Lives’ get through? 🤦‍♂️

 

I guess it wasn't an issue after April 13 when the teaser dropped (I don't think any recording sessions took place until later?)

 

Maybe there was concern about that cue title going to JKMS for preparation.

 

3 minutes ago, Ludwig said:

 

An early sketch of the Approaching the Nursery cue was originally titled Approaching the Emperor. So yes, the #2 seems to refer to the Approaching the Throne cue rather than a revision of the same cue.

 

This makes sense. I'm sure I'd seen Approaching the Emperor on a list somewhere, though it's absent from the partial cue list thread and Falstaff's breakdown (likely because it was the same cue renamed from Emperor to Nursery).

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31 minutes ago, crumbs said:

The #2 presumably doesn't designate revision in this instance, because 8M1 corresponds to the prototype version of reel 8 that JW initially scored (rather than reel 7, like the rest of the revised climax cues).


Yeah, if he’s followed the same system as the other sequel trilogy films, it would have been 1M5R Rey Training instead of 1M20 Rey Training, etc.

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2 minutes ago, crumbs said:

This makes sense. I'm sure I'd seen Approaching the Emperor on a list somewhere, though it's absent from the partial cue list thread and Falstaff's breakdown (likely because it was the same cue renamed from Emperor to Nursery).

 

Yes, "Emperor" in the sketch was changed to "Nursery" in a later version. So that one is the same cue, it just got slightly renamed.

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8 minutes ago, crumbs said:

I guess it wasn't an issue after April 13 when the teaser dropped (I don't think any recording sessions took place until later?)


Ah, that hadn’t even occurred to me! Guess this was to prevent spoilers for the music prep staff rather than the musicians. The teaser with the emperor reveal was at least a couple months before the first session, but they would have already begun preparing the scores.

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4 hours ago, crumbs said:

This is a quick guess of what the major stretches of music in the final act are covered by:

  • 7M12 Seven Twelve (OST Battle of the Resistance Part A)
  • 7M12A Horses #2 (OST Battle of the Resistance Part B)
  • 7M20 Approaching The Throne (OST Approaching the Throne Part A)
  • 7M30 More Action (OST Approaching the Throne Part B)
  • The Crowd Joins In (OST Approaching the Throne Part C??)
  • 7M21 Parents (FYC Parents with artificial ending)
  • Coming Together ??? (FYC Coming Together, cue title unclear)
  • Hero Fight ??? (unreleased Rey/Ren fight sequence)
  • 8M8 On Their Knees (only partially used)
  • 7M36 Dunkirk (self-explanatory, unreleased)
  • 7M28 Seeing Sights (OST The Force Is With You Part A)
  • 7M38 I Am All The Sith (OST The Force Is With You Part B)
  • 8M10 Success and Sliding (FYC Rescue)
  • 8M11A Dropping The Sabre (OST Farewell Part A)
  • 8M14 Ben to Rey (OST Farewell Part B)


So, some of these possibilities could be reasonably ruled out, because we have the order of the first appearance of each cue (and not including tracked music from the other films and a couple untitled cues):

  • Spy's Message
  • Horses #2
  • Approaching the Throne
  • More Action
  • Parents
  • Make The Sacrifice
  • The Crowd Joins In
  • The Last Fight
  • Hero Fight
  • Big Ship Blows Up
  • Emperor's Attack
  • The Dunkirk Shot
  • I Am All The Sith
  • Name That Tune
  • Success and Sliding
  • Rey and Ren

These already appeared earlier in the film, so wouldn’t show up in the list again:

  • Seven Twelve
  • Psalm of the Sith
  • On Their Knees
  • Dropping the Sabre
  • Ben to Rey

These don’t show up in the GEMA database, so are unlikely to have been used in the final film:

  • Jumping the Chain
  • Seeing Sights
  • Dunkirk (unless ‘The Dunkirk Shot’ is this same cue, but I wouldn’t assume that when ‘Rey Trains’ and ‘Rey Training’ are different)

The GEMA lists for TFA and TLJ are 99% complete and in film order for TFA and TLJ, except for missing certain cues apparently based on the pop music logic that “artist + title = always unique”, so TFA is missing ‘Father and Son’ and ‘Climbing the Mountain’, due there already being John Williams cues with those titles in Return of the Jedi and Close Encounters of the Third Kind, respectively. This explains the absence of these expected cue titles for TROS:

  • Main Title
  • March of the Resistance (TROS cue 7M5, not the TFA concert arrangement)
  • Return to Tatooine
  • End Credits
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We need a CSI: Rise of Skywalker spinoff to forensically analyse this mess of a score!

 

It's like a giant puzzle where all the pieces are scattered around different places and dozens of pieces are missing.

 

With enough analysis you could probably piece together 80% of that final act, but there's still too many gaps without having a complete cue list/sheet music, and the November spreadsheet is unreliable for those final few reels.

 

I have no doubt there's still plenty of cues that were recorded but haven't shown up in any leak/database, because they were wholly replaced by November.

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13 hours ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

So a reference to Duel of the Fates was indeed recorded!


Wow; cool!

 

13 hours ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

Also now it appears we know for certain that the chanting is technically part of the score, not just sound effects added in post.


I KNEW IT!!!

 

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One of the VFX artists for TROS showed off some concept art on Instagram and mentioned that the Cloud City shot near the end was a last-minute addition. I haven’t found the original post, but someone noted here that the sync of the music to picture is really odd in the second half of “Farewell”, with a big arrival point coinciding with Poe taking off his helmet rather than a dramatic shot of ships, so maybe this at least partially explains that:

 

image.png

 

Quote

@clyne_design Part of a quick montage at the end of #theriseofskywalker Fun building Bespin under pressure. Only had a day to work this out because it was late in the production and we were all under the gun. Note: scale of Star Destroyer is waaay off. Mainly because the team was looking for a dramatic composition. 

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CMca_FAjBBv/?igshid=75pd9skzkp8c

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  • 3 weeks later...

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