POLL: How do the large scale music works for the Star Wars Saga (John Williams) and Middle Earth Saga (Howard Shore) compare?

[TheUlyssesian 2,473]

In terms of scale, scope, ambition, complexity and sheer hours of music written - only two film sagas compare - 

 

The 9 films in the Star Wars saga all scored by John Williams

The 6 flms in the Middle Earth saga all scored by Howard Shore

 

Now that Williams' work is done, looking back - how do these two titanic works stack up against each other?

 

 

[SteveMc 2,674]

I'm getting deja vu

[Bilbo 3,709]

How many times are we going to do this?

[mstrox 6,647]

Didn't look at the poll options - checked the dots in a design that was pleasing to my eye.

 

Option 2

Option 1

Option 2

Option 1

Option 2

Option 1

Option 2

Option 1

Option 2

Option 1

[Edmilson 7,393]

How many polls comparing SW with LOTR are we going to have anyway?

[TheUlyssesian 2,473]

As many as it takes!

 

But honestly, we have arrived at an inflection point - the conclusion of Williams' work. This is a good vantage point from which to take a look.

[mrbellamy 6,272]

Honestly don't know how to answer half of these and a lot of these options seem redundant...

[Jay 37,306]

Too many questions that are too similar to each other

[Brundlefly 2,385]

54 minutes ago, Jay said:

Too many questions that are too similar to each other

That's not true.

[Jurassic Shark 12,030]

1 hour ago, TheUlyssesian said:

In terms of scale, scope, ambition, complexity and sheer hours of music written - only two film sagas compare

 

What about Barry's Bond scores?

[TheUlyssesian 2,473]

2 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

What about Barry's Bond scores?

 

Barry's Bond scores do not represent a saga - they are an anthology or stand alone adventures. Themes and concepts aren't reused and multiplied and compounded and built upon and resurrected like they are in the two examples I gave.

[Jurassic Shark 12,030]

3 minutes ago, TheUlyssesian said:

Themes and concepts aren't reused

 

Wrong.

[Bespin 8,480]

Nice Howard Shore bashing thread 👍

[Chen G. 3,944]

Wonderfully well thought-out poll in terms of breaking down these scores.

 

To summarize my thoughts, I do find the Middle Earth scores the more cohesive, intricate and, personally, the more emotionally engaging. That's enough for me.

[Jurassic Shark 12,030]

I find Shore's scores the most disappointing. The first one's very good, then it's downhill from there.

[TheUlyssesian 2,473]

30 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Wonderfully well thought-out poll in terms of breaking down these scores.

 

To summarize my thoughts, I do find the Middle Earth scores the more cohesive, intricate and, personally, the more emotionally engaging. That's enough for me.

 

I actually find the fundamental short-coming in them to be the lack of a unifying idea. There isn't once concept or theme that can be said to tie up the entire series. We have two such great candidates in Star Wars. You have the main theme or Luke's theme that represents the concept as a whole and you also have the Force theme which essentially is the main musical idea that ties up the entire saga itself.

 

With that said, Shore's score are outrageously skull-crushingly ambitious, intricate and complex. I daresay he exceeds over a 100 leitmotifs by the end of it. It is the Wagnerian approach pushed to its absolute limits. Literally anything that can have a theme has one. You could argue the themes are too numerous and sometimes too similar to really stand out and too small perhaps to really have extended performances in say a concert suite.

 

Shore's music is a music professor's dream. His scores are infact as if a music professor wrote them. They are made to be studied and compiled and cataloged and indexed. It is all in all - a slightly academic approach.

 

Williams has the opposite approach. It is still complex and intricate but more accessible. The themes are less numerous but they are stronger, longer, bolder, more extended and stick out more. The concert suites give an access point to audiences to become familiar with the themes and then the audience can enjoy the themes more in context and have that emotional reaction. In a way, Williams is almost holding the hand of the listener and guiding them how to listen to a motivic work. Shore does no such thing - he drops the listener right into 50 themes and the listener is barely appreciate the complexity of it all.

 

In the end - Williams approach is wrote in film-scoring, his music is big and dramatic because it scores big and dramatic scenes in the movies. Shore's music is an intellectual exercise of composing a Wagnerian work to accompany a motion picture. Both are successful approaches but one is embraced by audiences and the other flies over their heads even if they might think they like it.

[mrbellamy 6,272]

More than ever, I'm just starting to think that it might be futile to try and evaluate LOTR/Hobbit and Star Wars 1-9 as only two separate compositions. I'm not sure either of these are at their best on that level and might even suffer artistically when considered this way. It's not exactly how they were intended.

 

The Lord of the Rings, The Hobbit, and the three Star Wars trilogies are five large works, made up of fifteen distinct scores conceived in groups of three at a time. As two singular pieces, they're interesting to me primarily in how they inform and clash with each other as well as tracking the arc of the composers' creative development, especially Williams from his mid 40s to his mid 80s. Taking into account the rest of Williams's career in between, there is a lot to say about Star Wars/Phantom Menace/Force Awakens, The Empire Strikes Back/Attack of the Clones/The Last Jedi, and Return of the Jedi/Revenge of the Sith/The Rise of Skywalker. As much as we have talked about Star Wars ad nauseum, I'm not sure we've actually scratched the surface on this yet.

 

Howard Shore writing six scores from his mid 50s to his mid 60s, less interesting, with less development in his approach to the genre as far as I can tell. At the same time that makes it stronger in some ways as a unified work, and Shore's approach to leitmotif is obviously applied with more consistency than Williams. He was also blessed with stronger filmmaking in the case of the Lord of the Rings and so I think delivers a more effective dramatic work than any of the Star Wars trilogies, individually. However overall I find the Star Wars scores to be comparably more accessible music in its own right, if less exotic.

 

Then there's the issue of both the Hobbit and the prequels/sequels displaying increased maturity in their composers' skill sets yet suffering from diminishing returns cinematically and in some aspects musically as well. This is the main reason I find it hard to lump these all together and try to compare them 1:1.

 

I don't know, I find it all very unwieldy and I'm not enough of a music scholar to make heads or tails of it so I prefer enjoying them for their own sake. I don't usually think about them that critically. As objectively as possible, I think it's pretty easy to say The Lord of the Rings and The Original Star Wars Trilogy are pillars of film scoring with a respectable range of influence and casual listening popularity. The Star Wars Prequel Trilogy has found a lesser but still unexpected niche of influence and appreciation, while the music of The Hobbit seems to be largely forgotten and settling more into a "supplemental material" zone. The Star Wars Sequel Trilogy may be headed towards the latter as well.

[Chen G. 3,944]

@TheUlyssesian

I don't necessarily need a "main theme" across such a sprawling narrative. Wagner didn't have one, and it could be argued that Williams' doesn't really have one, either. Outside of the original score, the Star Wars/Luke theme isn't really all that prominent in the actual underscore: its mostly just the crawl and the beginning of the closing credits. The Force Theme functions much more like a main theme, but ultimately fell into overuse and borderline-trivialization as a consequence.

 

I find it oversimplified to say that Shore deals with dozens of little musical cells whereas Williams deals with fewer, but longer and more memorable ideas. At the end of the day, each score in each cycle has (or is meant to have) a big tune or two for casual listeners/moviegoers to rest their hats on, while the other leitmotifs are less catchy but form the bulk of the texture. No one will be walking out of The Empire Strikes Back humming the Boba Fett motif anymore than they would the Weakness arpeggio from any of Shore's scores.

 

The other thing Shore does is that his themes are arranged into sets and subsets of related themes, and even if some of them end up sounding the same, its actually part of his modus operandi in that - by the third score of each part of the cycle - you're not even sure what leitmotif you're listening to anymore, because they all get intentionally meshed together. Its a true musical culmination (literally) and as a result every "theme" pushes so many buttons simultaneously its almost mind boggling.

 

And while it is a hugely impressive achievement intellectually, it never fails to move me in ways that Star Wars never could, even draw a tear from the eye.

[TheUlyssesian 2,473]

16 minutes ago, mrbellamy said:

More than ever, I'm just starting to think that it might be futile to try and evaluate LOTR/Hobbit and Star Wars 1-9 as only two separate compositions. I'm not sure either of these are at their best on that level and might even suffer artistically when considered this way. It's not exactly how they were intended.

 

The Lord of the Rings, The Hobbit, and the three Star Wars trilogies are five large works, made up of fifteen distinct scores conceived in groups of three at a time. As two singular pieces, they're interesting to me primarily in how they inform and clash with each other as well as tracking the arc of the composers' creative development, especially Williams from his mid 40s to his mid 80s. Taking into account the rest of Williams's career in between, there is a lot to say about Star Wars/Phantom Menace/Force Awakens, The Empire Strikes Back/Attack of the Clones/The Last Jedi, and Return of the Jedi/Revenge of the Sith/The Rise of Skywalker. As much as we have talked about Star Wars ad nauseum, I'm not sure we've actually scratched the surface on this yet.

 

Howard Shore writing six scores from his mid 50s to his mid 60s, less interesting, with less development in his approach to the genre as far as I can tell. At the same time that makes it stronger in some ways as a unified work, and Shore's approach to leitmotif is obviously applied with more consistency than Williams. He was also blessed with stronger filmmaking in the case of the Lord of the Rings and so I think delivers a more effective dramatic work than any of the Star Wars trilogies, individually. However overall I find the Star Wars scores to be comparably more accessible music in its own right, if less exotic.

 

Then there's the issue of both the Hobbit and the prequels/sequels displaying increased maturity in their composers' skill sets yet suffering from diminishing returns cinematically and in some aspects musically as well. This is the main reason I find it hard to lump these all together and try to compare them 1:1.

 

I don't know, I find it all very unwieldy and I'm not enough of a music scholar to make heads or tails of it so I prefer enjoying them for their own sake. I don't usually think about them that critically. As objectively as possible, I think it's pretty easy to say The Lord of the Rings and The Original Star Wars Trilogy are pillars of film scoring with a respectable range of influence and casual listening popularity. The Star Wars Prequel Trilogy has found a lesser but still unexpected niche of influence and appreciation, while the music of The Hobbit seems to be largely forgotten and settling more into a "supplemental material" zone. The Star Wars Sequel Trilogy may be headed towards the latter as well.

 

I think we can draw a line between two middle earth trilogies but I am still wondering where the line is in the Star Wars trilogy. It is 3 distinct trilogies but story wise they have been so tied together and musically, specially with the last 3 installments - there are no so many callbacks that it does seem like one large work. Even Williams talks about it that way. But I hear you. But for something like Star Wars, you cannot comprehend the scope of it all unless you take the 9 movies in totality.

[Oomoog the Ecstatic 314]

Actually 3 of these questions are very similar but people responded with the opposite response. Perhaps pity points?

 

Which large scale work better rewards stand alone listening experiences away from the film? More people said not LoTR. Star Wars.

Which large scale work is a greater work of film-scoring? / Which large scale work is a greater work of music composition? More people said LoTR is actually better composed than it is a film score.

[mstrox 6,647]

If I had answered all three the same way, it wouldn’t have fit the pattern.

[Oomoog the Ecstatic 314]

Maybe the answer is the pattern. 

 

[Arpy 4,145]

Thanks @mrbellamy for a more nuanced response! I don't think you could fairly compare the two either, all of them are going for different approaches - especially between the two PJ series and the three Skywalker trilogies. For mere accessibility, I give the floor to Star Wars, but for one cohesive, strong musical narrative I have to go with Shore's LotR. 

 

Are the three Skywalker Trilogies so tightly knit musically or in terms of Williams' personal growth and shifts in style over those forty something years? It's easy to tell a Prequel cue from an OT one, and the same can be done with the PT from the ST. Perhaps the years have made for these leaps in style over the relatively short period Shore spent on Rings. The three Skywalker trilogies sound like three distinct periods. 

 

In terms of an evolution of themes - there is a greater evolution between the three Rings scores than there is in all nine Star Wars scores. Williams outright needledrops themes from earlier scores, particularly in the ST without any modification making it sound like a playbook of greatest hits.

 

 

I'm not going to win over anyone on this forum given it's namesake, but I think there is a huge bias here towards Williams where the same standards wouldn't apply between any other composer standoff. I rate and value both Williams and Shore's efforts as among the greatest film music of all time and really found this difficult to fairly answer as I love them both.

[King Mark 3,626]

8 hours ago, TheUlyssesian said:

As many as it takes!

 

But honestly, we have arrived at an inflection point - the conclusion of Williams' work. This is a good vantage point from which to take a look.

 

Really do we need this poll in the JWforum sub forum? It really feels like trolling and you just need to validate you personal opinion  that Lord of the Rings are the ultimate film scores of all times

 

We already know what some of you that hang out in the Tolkien sub-forum most of the time think  so i'm not even going to read the questions

[TheUlyssesian 2,473]

1 minute ago, King Mark said:

you personal opinion  that Lord of the Rings are the ultimate film scores of all times

 

Where do I say that?

[King Mark 3,626]

Because this is how this thread is going to end and it's just bait to the Tolkien sub-forum members. The Tolkien sub-forum Vs John Williams sub-forum poll.

[Arpy 4,145]

Just now, King Mark said:

Because this is how this thread is going to end and mostly people needing to validate this are going to answer it.

I don't think many JWFans will go against their lord and saviour on this topic, do you?

[King Mark 3,626]

See modified post below

[TheUlyssesian 2,473]

17 minutes ago, King Mark said:

Because this is how this thread is going to end and it's just bait to the Tolkien sub-forum members. The Tolkien sub-forum Vs John Williams sub-forum poll.

 

It is in the General section. I don't even know where the tolkein sub forum is.

[King Mark 3,626]

did Jay just move the thread or something?

[Arpy 4,145]

You sound like we were all hanging on your opinion to tie us over on what's right. 

7 minutes ago, King Mark said:

We've done this countless times before.

 

What do you want me to say.  The Lord of the Rings scores are okay but I never managed to make it through the complete recordings once without dying of boredom.

 

It's better than the Avengers stuff so there.

 

[King Mark 3,626]

9 minutes ago, TheUlyssesian said:

 

 I don't even know where the tolkein sub forum is.

it's where the JWfan members that joined JWfan because of Lord of the Rings are.

7 minutes ago, Arpy said:

You sound like we were all hanging on your opinion to tie us over on what's right. 

 

 yeah ,some members already despise me because of it

[Oomoog the Ecstatic 314]

Let's be honest and call a spade a spade. They joined JWfan to debate and spread their Howard Shore revelations to JW fans. They're obviously not real JW fans or they would've immediately without hesitation know that Star Wars is better.

[King Mark 3,626]

*thoughts* consolidated in one post above

 

 

 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I wonder what the Star Wars fans and the LOTR fans voted for?

[Oomoog the Ecstatic 314]

I wonder what the Star Wars fans over at the Howard Shore forums voted for.

[Arpy 4,145]

9 minutes ago, Borodin said:

To be accurate, they joined JWfan to debate and spread their Howard Shore revelations to JW fans. They're obviously not real JW fans or they would've put Star Wars above LoTR.

 

Is LoTR better than Star Wars? Are you a thieving infiltrator with lack of musical understanding? These are questions we won't get honest answers to.

Believe it or not, there are people out there who aren't stolid obsessive supporters to one ideology, there are people who can think for themselves. One of the reasons I joined this forum was for the discussion of scores in general not particularly pertaining to Williams. 

To be honest with you, having formal training or an understanding of music doesn't exclude one from having the capacity to be a giant dick.

[Oomoog the Ecstatic 314]

13 minutes ago, Arpy said:

To be honest with you, having formal training or an understanding of music doesn't exclude one from having the capacity to be a giant dick.

 

Although, having a well-sized one helps in any field.

 

13 minutes ago, Arpy said:

One of the reasons I joined this forum was for the discussion of scores in general not particularly pertaining to Williams.

 

I joined this forum for the great discussion material.

 

[King Mark 3,626]

Enjoying music is not about being a musical scholar. 

 

I'm sure most classical elitists and people who have formal training in classical music think both Lord of the Rings and Star Wars suck

[Oomoog the Ecstatic 314]

Yeah what do they know.

[Arpy 4,145]

20 minutes ago, King Mark said:

Enjoying music is not about being a musical scholar. 

 

I'm sure most classical elitists and people who have formal training in classical music think both Lord of the Rings and Star Wars suck

Yeah, except replace 'classical elitist' with 'John Williams elitist' and you have this thread.

[King Mark 3,626]

No, I modified my initial post to avoid falling into that trap.

 

Edit:

 

We've done this countless times before so I'll try to answer this thread not just to defend John Williams but as someone who enjoys film music in general from many composers.

 

The Lord of the Rings scores are okay but I never managed to make it through the complete recordings once without dying of boredom. It doesn't matter to me if all the themes are intricately woven together in a "mind blowing way" because I don't think any of the themes themselves are that good or memorable . They sound more like new age music than traditional orchestral film scores and I just don't think they are the film music masterpieces some consider them to be.

 

I think Jerry Goldsmith, James Horner ,John Barry..etc.. have better themes in most of their scores than what Shore managed for write for Lord of the Rings. Heck I have itunes playlists (where John Williams is EXCLUDED) made up of hundreds of tracks from hundreds of different film scores ,videogame scores and composers and only a few Lord of the Rings tracks made it on there

 

But I will rank Lord of the Rings above  Zimmer/RCP style scores and other "modern sounding"  film scores like Avengers.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Avengers sounds nothing like Zimmer.

[King Mark 3,626]

Well ,maybe not the last one

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

None of of them do. Zimmer or his minions could never conceive of scores that sound like Silvestri's Avengers scores.

[TheUlyssesian 2,473]

9 minutes ago, King Mark said:

No, I modified my initial post to avoid falling into that trap.

 

Edit:

 

We've done this countless times before so I'll try to answer this thread not just to defend John Williams but as someone who enjoys film music in general from many composers.

 

The Lord of the Rings scores are okay but I never managed to make it through the complete recordings once without dying of boredom. It doesn't matter to me if all the themes are intricately woven together in a "mind blowing way" because I don't think any of the themes themselves are really great or memorable.

 

I think Jerry Goldsmith, James Horner ,John Barry..etc.. have better themes in most of their scores than what Shore managed for write for Lord of the Rings.

 

Heck I have itunes playlists (where John Williams is EXCLUDED) made up of hundreds of tracks from hundreds of different film scores ,videogame scores and composers and only a few Lord of the Rings tracks made it on there

 

But I will rank Lord of the Rings above  Zimmer/RCP style scores and other "modern sounding"  film scores like Avengers.

 

You seem to conveniently ignore the Hobbit scores. LOTR is just half the work.

[King Mark 3,626]

Same thing There's a few tracks I Iike in there but to me it's an extension of Lord of the Rings

[Oomoog the Ecstatic 314]

With Williams it's usually a combination of 'decent' leitmotif with 'brilliant' orchestration. It's not brilliant leitmotif like Uematsu or anything, rather the orchestration and timbres he uses power the themes very far and delightfully and this combination is why Williams is the best, he's got so much emphasis, and he's got money in both pockets of this ordeal, this balance. None of the Star Wars Sequel leitmotifs really stick out to me though, I think The Hobbit theme is better than Rey's. All Rey's has to me is the Bb ↑Db ↓F ↑Bb Eb F melody but right after that ↑F all interest or memorability is gone. The Hobbit theme is definitely more wondrous and effective to me.

 

I forgot if this is the best version, but:

 

[TheUlyssesian 2,473]

4 minutes ago, Borodin said:

With Williams it's usually a combination of 'decent' leitmotif with 'brilliant' orchestration. It's not brilliant leitmotif like Uematsu or anything, rather the orchestration and timbres he uses power the themes very far and attractively and this combination is why Williams is the best, he's got money in both pockets. None of the Star Wars sequel leitmotifs really stick out to me though, I think The Hobbit theme is better than Rey's. All Rey's has to me is the Bb ↑Db ↓F ↑Bb Eb F melody but right after that ↑F all interest or memorability is gone. The Hobbit theme is definitely more wondrous and effective to me.

 

 

 

That theme is not even be Shore. Isn't that a point against Shore that the most memorable theme you are able to cite - he did not even write it?

[Oomoog the Ecstatic 314]

The most memorable and greatest part from Middle Earth is not the above, but the following minute. But you're saying that The Hobbit theme wasn't Shore. Is this Shore?