Popular Post Ludwig 1,120 Posted January 8, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 8, 2020 Here's my analysis of the new themes in The Rise of Skywalker (beware: spoilers present!) http://www.filmmusicnotes.com/new-themes-and-their-meaning-in-the-rise-of-skywalker/ Enjoy! Loert, Fargo, Marc and 14 others 8 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falstaft 2,097 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 This is brilliant analysis, as always @Ludwig! Thank you for sharing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,045 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 Very interesting stuff! However, I am surprised you don't have a section for the Ben Solo theme / redeemed Kylo theme / Heoric Kylo theme / whatever you want to call it. The theme from the end of the movie when Kylo/Ben shows up to help Rey and concludes when he defeats the Knights of Ren. The theme that Williams didn't include on the OST but we got in two FYC tracks (Parents and Coming Together) Is it just because you consider it a modification of Kylo's original theme? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crumbs 14,276 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 6 hours ago, Jay said: Is it just because you consider it a modification of Kylo's original theme? On this topic, I'll defer to anyone with a better understanding of musical theory than I, but why is the modification of Kylo Ren's theme in TROS considered a new motif, while the transformation of Rey's chimes motif at the end of The Last Jedi isn't treated similarly? I can't define JW's treatment of the chimes motif here. Is it just the same notes moved to a different key? I figured the transformation of Kylo's theme in TROS was essentially the same technique, just moved upwards to a more heroic/major key. Or is it simply that the chimes motif only appears this way once in the trilogy, hence it's not a recurring motif. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Falstaft 2,097 Posted January 9, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 9, 2020 11 minutes ago, crumbs said: On this topic, I'll defer to anyone with a better understanding of musical theory than I, but why is the modification of Kylo Ren's theme in TROS considered a new motif, while the transformation of Rey's chimes motif at the end of The Last Jedi isn't treated similarly? I can't define JW's treatment of the chimes motif here. Is it just the same notes moved to a different key? I figured the transformation of Kylo's theme in TROS was essentially the same technique, just moved upwards to a more heroic/major key. Great question. To me, it's a matter of both repetition and musical significance. The transformation of Rey's Chimes you cite is, while lovely, quite surface-level, a single reharmonization. It's also never repeated outside the context of the very last bars of the End Title of TLJ. Leitmotifs, I feel, need corroboration. The modification of Kylo Ren's theme, on the other hand is more than a one-off reharmonization -- it's systematic a reorientation of the melody, from the chromatic 5-#4 to the diatonic b6-5. There's a harmonic shift that occurs with it too, but it's a little oversimplistic to describe it as a moving it to a major key; the "Redeemed KR" theme isn't really attached to a specific tonal center, major or minor, but moves around in a unstable, striving way. It's also used pretty rigorously and frequently, in at least 4 or 5 different cues. So it fits at least my personal criteria for leitmotivic status. The various componetns of Rey's theme *do* undergo a lot of development in this score, don't get me wrong. And with the revival of that one variant of hers from TFA for the chat with Ghost Luke on Ahch-To, one might even elevate her "sweeping" motif variant to pseudo-leitmotivic status. Ludwig, Cerebral Cortex and crumbs 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheUlyssesian 2,467 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 I honestly don't consider a new theme either. Simply because it is an evolution. It has the same general shape and note structure. It is still so easily identifiable that it does not merit being called a new theme. Because it would then set up an arbitrary standard - where do we draw a line where something is a theme variation and something is a new theme. I think unless it can be precise, we risk injecting randomness into theme identification. I am fine either way, but personally to me it is not a new theme. I have two other questions - 1. The Poe's Heroics motif is said to occur 4 times, but how many times was it intended? Because most of the times it appears tracked. So we could have a case where a fanfare might have been intended to be a one time only thing by Williams but became a motif because the editor put it in multiple times without the composer wanting it to be motif. 2. And the second is, and I was thinking about this since seeing the film - I really do think Anthem of Evil is entirely extraneous and disposable. It is a nice enough theme but really unnecessary. I think if you have established Emperor as your big bad, use his theme for the evil actions. What's the need for another theme? I say this because Anthem really does not make any significant impact in the film. I think CC on filmtracks might dock a few points off for this theme. He noted the same thing about Rouge One - that Gia seemed to create themes for concepts that already had themes. It harms the cleanness of design when you have extraneous material. In a beautiful tight and well thought design, you won't have multiple themes representing the same concept - because what is the point. So did we really need another bad guy theme here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyD 1,220 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 Nice analysis. I had the exact same insight with Anthem of Evil, hence why in the end credits suite, the Maestro segues the final note of Anthem of Evil right into The Imperial March. It makes perfect sense. I also felt that Anthem of Evil perfectly encapsulated the Sith Fleet and Palpatine's plan to regain control and return to full form. Also, I believe Anthem of Evil makes one final statement in the film before the end credits. It is an unreleased cue. I need to know how to do a spoiler tag so I can refer to the scene in question. It has to do with Palpatine and something he does; it is during the climax. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post crumbs 14,276 Posted January 9, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 9, 2020 I don't mind a new "evil" theme that is more nebulous than all the rest (which have all been tied to characters, whether the Death Star, Vader, Palpatine, Kylo Ren, Knights of Ren, Grievous, Trade Federation, Separists/Dooku). I think many predicted Williams might use that approach in the film, if only to prevent the Emperor's Theme from being overused. I interpet Anthem of Evil as an extension of the recurring adagio-esque Starkiller theme in TFA, which really represented the evil deeds of Ren and the First Order. Anthem of Evil seems more generally tied to the Sith/Palpatine's evil acts (most explicitly stated in the flashback to Rey's parents' murder, potentially JW's original intent before re-edits). The low chorale that begins the concert suite could be interpreted as Sith chanting. It's interesting how the Emperor's Theme is tracked into the film from other scores in multiple scenes, perhaps indicating JJ wanted the theme used more than Williams did (or maybe that Williams wrote new variations that JJ didn't like as much). Ludwig, Falstaft, TheUlyssesian and 3 others 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Ludwig 1,120 Posted January 9, 2020 Author Popular Post Share Posted January 9, 2020 On 1/8/2020 at 3:05 PM, Jay said: Is it just because you consider it a modification of Kylo's original theme? Yes. I think of it as an example of thematic transformation, whereby a theme can undergo changes in melodic intervals, harmony, and to some degree rhythm, so that the theme remains easily recognizable though will imply some new aspect of its association. There hasn't really been another case in Star Wars of a transformed theme used in a consistent and frequent enough way, so from that perspective I can understand calling it something on its own. I suppose I would be more apt to call it something new if it were substantially more different from Kylo's theme than it is. As it is, I can't help but hear it as Kylo's theme a bit altered. A redeemed variation of Kylo's theme, in other words. It may be that we're not actually saying very different things, just in what to call it. I put it more in the vein of other examples that are admittedly simpler but demonstrate similar alterations like the minor and even Phrygian versions of Luke's theme in ESB. One might understand the emotion of these as something like Luke's despair, which of course veers widely from the heroism the major version generally expresses. But the theme is the same to me, still good old Luke's theme. On 1/8/2020 at 10:09 PM, TheUlyssesian said: 1. The Poe's Heroics motif is said to occur 4 times, but how many times was it intended? Because most of the times it appears tracked. So we could have a case where a fanfare might have been intended to be a one time only thing by Williams but became a motif because the editor put it in multiple times without the composer wanting it to be motif. So this question really gets at two ways of understanding the application of leitmotifs in film. On the one hand, one can understand as valid only what the composer creates and intends - in music theory land, this is what's called the "poietic". On the other hand, one can understand as valid the audience's reception of the finished product - this is what's called the "esthesic". I suppose I understand film scores as being somewhere between the two. So I am open to reorganizations of the composer's intentions by others making the film. After all, filmmaking is a collaborative process, even in the composition of the musical score. But I also think the composer's intentions are important to consider as well so that even if music is tracked into a scene or someone other than the composer suggests another approach to the scene, it has some relationship to where it was originally placed. Lucas' suggestion of the Force theme as an alternate Binary Sunset (the original one!) is a great example. It doesn't denote Obi-Wan or the Force in that scene as pretty much every other statement of the theme does in that film, but is clearly linked to Luke's destiny of becoming a Jedi like his father before him. This is where I'm open to suggestions made by those other than the composer and even most instances of tracking have a kinship to the composer's original use of the theme that creates an acceptable meaning, at least for me. On 1/8/2020 at 10:09 PM, TheUlyssesian said: 2. And the second is, and I was thinking about this since seeing the film - I really do think Anthem of Evil is entirely extraneous and disposable. It is a nice enough theme but really unnecessary. I think if you have established Emperor as your big bad, use his theme for the evil actions. What's the need for another theme? I say this because Anthem really does not make any significant impact in the film. ... In a beautiful tight and well thought design, you won't have multiple themes representing the same concept - because what is the point. So did we really need another bad guy theme here? Yes, I see what you mean. I don't think anyone would have felt deprived of anything had the theme not been written for this film. But given that it is there is what leads me to ask why and what it has to offer in terms of meaning. That's what I love about leitmotivic analysis. When a statement compels you to ask why and, with a composer like Williams, you'll usually get a very rich answer. So no, the movie didn't need this theme, but I think it was a nice addition because of the Ren/Palpatine collaboration, the Ren/Vader thing reignited, and the Palpatine/Fleet idea all being prominent parts of the film. Sharkissimo, Tiburon, TheUlyssesian and 2 others 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabulin 3,505 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 . David Story 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falstaft 2,097 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 1 hour ago, TheUlyssesian said: I honestly don't consider a new theme either. Simply because it is an evolution. It has the same general shape and note structure. It is still so easily identifiable that it does not merit being called a new theme. Because it would then set up an arbitrary standard - where do we draw a line where something is a theme variation and something is a new theme. I think unless it can be precise, we risk injecting randomness into theme identification. I am fine either way, but personally to me it is not a new theme. That's certainly your prerogative! It's all arbitrary standards at the end of the day; I just try to be extremely explicit and consistent with mine. Until TROS, there weren't any "transformed" themes I considered leitmotivic in character in all the other SW scores. If it makes any difference to you, there's plenty of precedent in the realm of leitmotivic analysis of this kind of thing. All of the many thematic catalogues I know of for Wagner's Ring, for example, list the various recurrent transformations of the opening Rhine motif as their own autonomous leitmotifs -- Twilight, Erda, Wotan's Frustration, the World Ash, etc... -- and the process there is really not too different than Williams's. 1 hour ago, TheUlyssesian said: I have two other questions - 1. The Poe's Heroics motif is said to occur 4 times, but how many times was it intended? Because most of the times it appears tracked. So we could have a case where a fanfare might have been intended to be a one time only thing by Williams but became a motif because the editor put it in multiple times without the composer wanting it to be motif. I'm not sure I'm hearing it as tracked. The first & second instances are manifestly different renditions, the third may be a pitch-altered version of the first, but it's extremely hard to tell from these poor recordings, and the 4th is the peppy Speeder Chase variant that's kind of its own thing. (And there would have been a whole lot more renditions had the originally written Speeder Chase cue been used, I think). But don't take my word for it!: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1aPnXG5G80juHXdbyNdx7SHmU0ov4n6DB _deleted_ and Ludwig 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheUlyssesian 2,467 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 Isn't the first instance in after the quote "they fly now" tracked from Falcon Flight FYC track? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not Mr. Big 4,621 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 "Poe's Heroics" sounds like a combination of Poe's Theme and the new Friendship theme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falstaft 2,097 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 9 hours ago, TheUlyssesian said: Isn't the first instance in after the quote "they fly now" tracked from Falcon Flight FYC track? Like I said, if it is tracked, it's been pitch adjusted up a minor third for no clear reason. The statement in Falcon Flight is in Bb major, the statement after "they fly now" is in Db-maj. Extremely hard for me tell whether it's a new performance/arrangement beyond the difference in key, given the quality of the recordings we have. TheUlyssesian and DrTenma 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,045 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 Great discussions here! It is indeed unusual for a Williams score, especially a Star Wars score, to have a leitmotific idea that is derived from another theme very closely, yet clearly serves a different leitmotific plan. I think in my own mind, I'll started calling it "Kylo's Theme (Redeemed)", though I do kinda of like the poetic qualities of calling it "Ben Solo's Theme". Also, I have no proof or inside knowledge or anything, but I'd suspect the Anthem of Evil originally had more prevalent use in the full complete score as originally conceived, and then got whittled away from the final cut of the film, and the OST album. But who knows. DrTenma and Molly Weasley 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pellaeon 593 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 The whole FYC is damned near proof that the entire film score was cut to ribbons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artguy360 1,839 Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 To me Anthem of Evil is like a darkside temptation theme, often played when a character is feeling the pull of the darkside. This is a different purpose than the Emperor's theme or other people existing major themes. Listening to its occurrence in Join Me and Destiny of a Jedi among others, I think it works very well and serves a unique purpose. Ludwig 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabulin 3,505 Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 . Falstaft 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taikomochi 1,126 Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 Honestly, I suspect, considering Abrams was clearly interested in churning up as much surface-level Star Wars iconography as possible for cheap nostalgia points, that Abrams, unsatisfied with not having a big, evil theme for this trilogy as opposed to the shorter ideas for Ren, asked Williams to make a new bad guy theme to give this trilogy it’s own Imperial March, even though there wasn’t any need for one. That would explain why the idea is so nebulous in what it represents and why it’s not developed in a typical manner. But it could just as likely be it was whittled away in post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrTenma 116 Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 But the "Anthem of Evil" situation seems similar to "Luke & Leia" in ROTJ, right? In ROTJ the theme appears... ¿2, 3 times? and we could also argue that since both Luke and Leia had themes, Williams didn't need a "brother and sister" theme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taikomochi 1,126 Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 At least we knew what Luke and Leia represented as a theme. I don’t think anyone here is completely confident what Anthem of Evil specifically represents except “bad!” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romão 2,268 Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 It could be a theme for the rumored Matt Smith character that was eventually cut. Since I would assume JW begins is writing process by definining the main themes, he was probably a much more relevant character at the start of production Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pellaeon 593 Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 Matt Smith was cut? I assumed he was some alien or robot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabulin 3,505 Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheUlyssesian 2,467 Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 15 hours ago, artguy360 said: To me Anthem of Evil is like a darkside temptation theme, often played when a character is feeling the pull of the darkside. It's most prominent statement is when the villains blow up a planet. No temptation going on there. It is a straight evil bad guy theme - just not used very well and kind unnecessary. Taikomochi 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,045 Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 Frankly, there's now way to know if anytime it is playing in the final film is intended to be there by Williams, or tracked in from somewhere else by JJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerebral Cortex 3,357 Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 45 minutes ago, Jay said: There's now way to know if anytime it is playing in the final film is intended to be there by Williams, or tracked in from somewhere else by JJ We're slowly getting to the point where we can almost say that about the entire film. The Illustrious Jerry 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,045 Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 hehehe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheUlyssesian 2,467 Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 And the film was edited even after the final scoring sessions. So basically Williams did not even get the opportunity to intend for some scenes, much less actually write or record. I wonder though if he is consulted for tracking purposes. It is his music after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bondo 33 Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 Is anyone else surprised that there wasn't a mutation of the Emperor's theme into Rey's theme, or vice versa? From a story POV, it makes complete sense, and the two themes already share a few notes in common. I'm assuming this wasn't covered in the unreleased material (??). I was hoping for something ala Short Round's theme and Indy's theme at the end of TOD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_deleted_ 203 Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 18 hours ago, bondo said: story POV maybe it's because Rey calls herself a Skywalker in the end. I'm actually surprised that there wasn't a theme like Rey, the Skywalker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miz 135 Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 Thanks, that increases my appreciation of this score somewhat. I still think it is a bit of a strange and insufficient thematic approach, but cannot be helped in a film that was flailing all over the place with its inherited ideas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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