King Mark 3,631 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 The article basically calls John Williams a racist and his music the equivalent of wearing a blackface. At least that's the way I see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edmilson 7,431 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 I have this crazy conspiracy theory that much of these articles/thinkpieces/tweets or whatever that constitute most of the so called "woke mindset" are actually just Hollywood campaign strategists using it to tarnish the image of their adversaries. Look at the Green Piece article, for example. The movie was one of the favorites to win Best Picture of the last Awards season, so, it would be very easy for a campaign strategist to pay a huge sum to an opinion columnist (actually, several influencers) to throw the image of the movie unto the mud, under the guise of fighting racism on Hollywood media, or whatever. Also: remember that on January 9 2019 (i.e., right during the most heightened period of the awards campaign), the entertainment media posted the news that it was ~discovered~ that, on 2015, Green Book screenwriter Nick Vallelonga tweeted support to Trump's claim that Muslims cheered the 9/11? https://www.indiewire.com/2019/01/green-book-nick-vallelonga-tweet-support-donald-trump-new-jersey-muslims-cheered-9-11-1202034085/ By that same time, reports came out that Green Book director used to flash his penis as a joke on the set of his comedy movies during the 90s: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6575737/Green-Book-director-I-idiot-genital-flashing.html I'm not defending the gross behaviour of either Farrelly or Vallelonga, but look at the timing on which these news came out: right during the studios were campaigning for the Oscars. How Vallelonga's tweets, made years ago, resurfaced right then? Was it because some idiot was just reading his Twitter timeline when he accidentaly saw the tweet? Much of Green Book's competitors that year had huge conglomerates behind them: Black Panther (Disney), Roma (Netflix), etc. It would be very easy for a Netflix strategist to pay some money to private investigators to unearth stuff that would tarnish the images of its makers, while at the same time paying influencers to convice the public opinion of how problematic Green Book is (and how "new and progressive" their movie is by comparison). We're in january, folks, the Oscars are on the next month, and Williams will almost certainly be nominated. So, why not pay or convice someone to drag his image through the mud among public opinion? At least, they will try to. Williams is too respected among Hollywood to have the same fate as really weird people like the Green Book filmmakers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post crumbs 14,306 Posted January 9, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 9, 2020 Hildur is behind it all! She wants that bloody Oscar! Tydirium, The Illustrious Jerry, Disco Stu and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taikomochi 1,136 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 4 minutes ago, Edmilson said: I have this crazy conspiracy theory that much of these articles/thinkpieces/tweets or whatever that constitute most of the so called "woke mindset" are actually just Hollywood campaign strategists using it to tarnish the image of their adversaries. Look at the Green Piece article, for example. The movie was one of the favorites to win Best Picture of the last Awards season, so, it would be very easy for a campaign strategist to pay a huge sum to an opinion columnist (actually, several influencers) to throw the image of the movie unto the mud, under the guise of fighting racism on Hollywood media, or whatever. Also: remember that on January 9 2019 (i.e., right during the most heightened period of the awards campaign), the entertainment media posted the news that it was ~discovered~ that, on 2015, Green Book screenwriter Nick Vallelonga tweeted support to Trump's claim that Muslims cheered the 9/11? https://www.indiewire.com/2019/01/green-book-nick-vallelonga-tweet-support-donald-trump-new-jersey-muslims-cheered-9-11-1202034085/ By that same time, reports came out that Green Book director used to flash his penis as a joke on the set of his comedy movies during the 90s: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6575737/Green-Book-director-I-idiot-genital-flashing.html I'm not defending the gross behaviour of either Farrelly or Vallelonga, but look at the timing on which these news came out: right during the studios were campaigning for the Oscars. How Vallelonga's tweets, made years ago, resurfaced right then? Was it because some idiot was just reading his Twitter timeline when he accidentaly saw the tweet? Much of Green Book's competitors that year had huge conglomerates behind them: Black Panther (Disney), Roma (Netflix), etc. It would be very easy for a Netflix strategist to pay some money to private investigators to unearth stuff that would tarnish the images of its makers, while at the same time paying influencers to convice the public opinion of how problematic Green Book is (and how "new and progressive" their movie is by comparison). We're in january, folks, the Oscars are on the next month, and Williams will almost certainly be nominated. So, why not pay or convice someone to drag his image through the mud among public opinion? At least, they will try to. Williams is too respected among Hollywood to have the same fate as really weird people like the Green Book filmmakers. I think it’s more likely there is just increased media scrutiny on these properties in general during awards season rather than some conspiracy. I’m not saying that’s never happened, but I think it’s more likely just people are taking a closer look at those who are nominated for awards than some sinister plan. Like, JW was not gonna win for TROS anyways, and he’s not gonna lose because of a single opinion piece. Beyond that, you kind of defeat your own point by using examples for a film that won a bunch of awards anyways... kelliwisethebrave 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 3 minutes ago, crumbs said: Hildur is behind it all! She wants that bloody Oscar! This is hilarious, but as we've seen there are many JWFans ready to actually believe it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,631 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 Hildur will win the Oscar because of that beautiful song she tracked in the End Credits..Send in the Clowns was it? It's the only music I can remember from the movie Tydirium 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheUlyssesian 2,477 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 1 minute ago, Taikomochi said: I think it’s more likely there is just increased media scrutiny on these properties in general during awards season rather than some conspiracy. It is not a conspiracy, it just transparently exposes the media's agenda. I would think everyone at this point would have been disabused of the notion that the media objectively "reports". The media does not "report". The media "advocates" and "proselytizes". The media is not an umpire. The media is participant actor. Josh500 and Tydirium 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveMc 2,674 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 At least Josh included Fox News. If you're going to be weird, might as well go all the way. As for the article, it is sad and disingenuous. Read it awhile back, full of inconsistencies and the troubling assumption that classical music has dwindling relevance because it's ties to the "problematic" Western cultural tradition. Anyway, does not affect John's Oscar chances. He had none to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post King Mark 3,631 Posted January 9, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 9, 2020 This Washington Post article is just as bad as anything on Fox News, just on the opposite side of the spectrum TheUlyssesian, Edmilson and Tydirium 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edmilson 7,431 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 1 minute ago, Taikomochi said: Beyond that, you kind of defeat your own point by using examples for a film that won a bunch of awards anyways... I'm not saying it's an infallible, proof error strategy. What I read is that Green Book was well liked amongst the older, more conservative members of the Academy, which also probably wouldn't want to give the award to a streaming service or to a billion-dollar grossing super-hero blockbuster. Younger and more diverse members probably have none of these problems, and voted for Roma or BP anyway, but they still aren't the majority of the voting board. Also, yeah, Vallelonga and Farrely received Oscars that night, but do you honestly think they'll do another movie in Hollywood again? Not at least for a few years. 7 minutes ago, crumbs said: Hildur is behind it all! She wants that bloody Oscar! I'm more inclined to believe it was Thomas Newman, putting into motion his dark plan of finally winning the Oscars. On the next day, we'll find out that Randy Newman knew about the abuse John Lasseter did at Pixar and did nothing to stop it, and that Hildur was actually responsible for Johann Johannssonn's death! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post crumbs 14,306 Posted January 9, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 9, 2020 I bet Williams wishes he passed on scoring The Post right now... Will, Edmilson, Cerebral Cortex and 3 others 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheUlyssesian 2,477 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 1 minute ago, Disco Stu said: Give me a time in history when this wasn't the case. Society and history is always narratives competing to be widely accepted as the "right" one. The media plays a charade where they act as if they are umpires. I would think that is the most deceitful and damaging kind of advocacy. The media are essentially officers and publicists of one party or another or one corporation or another. It would do a world of good if the media were to make those loyalties clear to the public. I might even make the case that the media is the single most harmful institution in the country today. Tydirium 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,631 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 3 minutes ago, crumbs said: I bet Williams wishes he passed on scoring The Post right now... And Spielberg is probably horrified reading this crumbs 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Arpy 4,145 Posted January 9, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 9, 2020 I like how the author takes a dig at Lucas and by extension Disney for hiring old white guy Williams for the ninth time, hoping more diverse composers could've somehow edged their way in for the final score. Not Mr. Big, Cerebral Cortex, Tydirium and 1 other 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edmilson 7,431 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 2 minutes ago, Arpy said: I like how the author takes a dig at Lucas and by extension Disney for hiring old white guy Williams for the ninth time, hoping more diverse composers could've somehow edged their way in. Well, at least they can say that Terrence Blanchard scored the Lucasfilm produced Red Tails, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh500 1,615 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 40 minutes ago, John said: Yup. Like I said, the totally ignorant and clueless. I call them the "sheep."🤣👆 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Not Mr. Big 4,639 Posted January 9, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 9, 2020 Even as a liberal, I find the practice of heavily reading into works of art to find minute "problematic" meanings to be utterly stupid and anti-art. Edmilson, Falstaft, Cerebral Cortex and 8 others 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpy 4,145 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 This article causes more offense than it seemingly tries to virtue signal against. What an awful piece of trash for Williams to have to read. You know, pick your fights, man, are film scores really causing as much harm as you let on? Quote Debbie: Oh Karen, did you know I was like, watching Minions 6 the other day with my niece and you won't believe what I heard in the background as the bad guy showed up! Karen: What!? Debbie: Fucking eastern instruments and there wasn't like any cultural awareness or whatever, they just played the erhu like it was a fucking violin or something. Don't get me started on those Taiko drums! These guys who make the music for these films are like soooo racist. So asians are evil now?!! WTF? Karen: I don't think I'm going to take by child to see it now, Debbie, I just don't think I can expose them to this kind of outdated thinking. Film scores need to be banned. Edmilson 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh500 1,615 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 28 minutes ago, TheUlyssesian said: It is not a conspiracy, it just transparently exposes the media's agenda. I would think everyone at this point would have been disabused of the notion that the media objectively "reports". The media does not "report". The media "advocates" and "proselytizes". The media is not an umpire. The media is participant actor. Not media in general, mind. Specifically the corporate, state-run mass media, and even specifically the so-called corporate, state-run "Western" mass media. Tydirium 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveMc 2,674 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 Just now, Josh500 said: Not media in general, mind. Specifically the mass media, and even specifically the so-called "Western" mass media. Oh, yeah! Preach! We all need to wake up and get all our news from RT and TASS. They tell the truth guys! Taikomochi 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpy 4,145 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 He's not completely lost, you can find more reliable news sources from outside the mainstream media. Tydirium 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demodex 557 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 16 minutes ago, Josh500 said: Not media in general, mind. Specifically the corporate, state-run mass media, and even specifically the so-called corporate, state-run "Western" mass media. They're not state-run! Christ. Is there an "ignore user" function here? This guy is nuts. Taikomochi 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Holko 9,516 Posted January 9, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 9, 2020 Yes! It was invented for Josh. Demodex, SteveMc, crumbs and 1 other 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Taikomochi 1,136 Posted January 9, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 9, 2020 Thinking the media is in cahoots to deceive you, the only person who knows the real truth, rather than just being an industry full of frequently dumb people who live in a bubble because they all come from the same socioeconomic background, is a form of faux-wokeness unto itself. And I don’t mean that as an excuse to not read things critically. crumbs, Larry O and kelliwisethebrave 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,054 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 1 minute ago, Demodex said: They're not state-run! It's the Illuminati! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Naïve Old Fart 9,513 Posted January 9, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 9, 2020 I think I can speak for JWfan, when I say FUCK THAT SHIT!!!!! airmanjerm, MikeH, John and 2 others 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveMc 2,674 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 Naïve Old Fart 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Quintus 5,399 Posted January 9, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 9, 2020 The Illustrious Jerry, Fabulin, crumbs and 3 others 1 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tydirium 1,167 Posted January 9, 2020 Author Share Posted January 9, 2020 Is it cultural appropriation for a non-African-American to compose jazz? Is it cultural appropriation for a non-Asian to compose Asian-sounding music? Is it cultural appropriation for a non-Latino to compose Latin music? I wondered how long it would be before this cultural appropriation outrage made its way to the world of film music. According to the logic of people like the author of this article, any movie that involves more than one culture's music style, must hire an assortment of composers that covers the gamut of those cultures. Hollywood cares too much about money to kowtow to such an insane concept, but I do hope they don't cave in to this mindset and start severely restricting the musical styles present in a film, just because "Oh, X person can't compose Y music because they're not from Y's culture." It's an easy way to make music boring, if that's what they're after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,346 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 Hey Josh, how about you keep your personal politics to yourself when posting on JWFan, or don't post here at all. Use other areas of the internet to get your political thoughts out Everyone else, feel free to continue discussing this article without veering into other topics or we'll have to lock the thread Thank you! Taikomochi 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrbellamy 6,278 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 15 hours ago, publicist said: Interesting tidbit: Rey's Theme, it's underlying rhythm, leans heavily on a pentatonic scale. That was the first thing I thought of. (yes I know Forrest Gump isn’t woke either) crumbs 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 puhgrethivithm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p0llux 398 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 May the force not be with this guy, always. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintus 5,399 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 37 minutes ago, Jay said: Hey Josh, how about you keep your personal politics to yourself when posting on JWFan, or don't post here at all. Use other areas of the internet to get your political thoughts out Everyone else, feel free to continue discussing this article without veering into other topics or we'll have to lock the thread Thank you! To be fair, and I'm not defending Poll500 here, fuck no, but it's fundamentally difficult to not discuss politics when the very subject of the thread is political in nature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demodex 557 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 Is it political though to point out perceived racism? I don't think it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Tydirium 1,167 Posted January 9, 2020 Author Popular Post Share Posted January 9, 2020 How can it even be perceived racism? Using another culture's musical style more than likely means you have respect for the culture, not that you think it's inferior. This is more an issue of people being stupid, than an issue of racism. I mean, if a white composer using Asian music is racist, how long is it until we've got someone claiming that a white director making a movie using Asian actors, is also racist? Heck, maybe people shouldn't be able to even make films/art that features people or a culture having to do with any skin color or gender other than their own! /s See what I mean? Where will it end? Where is the line drawn? This is not about actual racism; we've lost any semblance of the dictionary definition ages ago. This is about people being stupid and trying to tear down that which has come before, in order to score a few points in their social circles. Just because someone slaps the word "racist" or "problematic" on something, doesn't mean it actually is. This author ignores all examples to the contrary, just to further the narrative they are presenting. It's bad journalism. The Illustrious Jerry, Demodex, Falstaft and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post dylanskie 104 Posted January 9, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 9, 2020 This article is an example of someone coming to and running with a conclusion before they have all the evidence. What the author failed to miss are all the non-European influences that have been used for "good guys." What about the horn the Gungans use in TPM? I don't know what country the actual instrument played originated in, but I'm fairly certain it was a country where the majority of the population wasn't white Europeans. What about all the music for the Ewoks? It sounds African or Caribbean to me. I'm making big generalizations here, but my point is that there are plenty of examples of JW writing music for "good guys" that wasn't influenced by European music. That being said, otherism does harm the world, but I don't think Williams has contributed anything toward continuing otherism. Obviously I'm biased because I'm a fan of his, but I also consider myself a liberal. The author of the article needs to spend more time going through all of Williams' work on Star Wars--and I'd like to see if their conclusion changed then. Tydirium, crumbs, Nils and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Falstaft 2,132 Posted January 9, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 9, 2020 10 minutes ago, Tydirium said: This author ignores all examples to the contrary, just to further the narrative they are presenting. It's bad journalism. And the examples he doesn't ignore, he gets wrong! I mean, Darth Maul has a motif, but it's not Duel of the Fates, which is an action set-piece -- an apocalyptic one, for sure, but not an explicit portrait of "evil." Maul's actual theme is a growly chromatic thing that is thoroughly Western in compositional sensibility. As are all the themes for all the other main villains: Vader, the Emperor, the Death Star, the Imperial Motif, the Droid Army, Gen. Grievous, Kylo Ren, the First Order, and on and on. The only villain to get a vaguely exotic-sounding theme is Jabba, and his musical characterization is probably more saliently made by his source music, which is a twisted Baroque minuet, than his tuba theme! If anyone is interested in actual good film music cultural criticism, there's plenty out there. In particular, if you want an essay on how good & evil are conveyed stylistically in this series, the standard is still James Buhler's 2001 article "Star Wars, Music & Myth." It was written pre-prequels, and there are parts you may disagree with, but on the whole it's the model for sensitive, musically-literate analysis of the broader social and political implications of Williams's music. Sharkissimo, Jay, Cerebral Cortex and 7 others 7 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 7 minutes ago, Falstaft (hiatus til TROS) said: If anyone is interested in actual good film music cultural criticism, there's plenty out there. In particular, if you want an essay on how good & evil are conveyed stylistically in this series, the standard is still James Buhler's 2001 article "Star Wars, Music & Myth." It was written pre-prequels, and there are parts you may disagree with, but on the whole it's the model for sensitive, musically-literate analysis of the broader social and political implications of Williams's music. Beginning with an Adorno quote is a bad sign, but thanks for the recommendation! Falstaft and Larry O 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falstaft 2,132 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 5 minutes ago, Disco Stu said: Beginning with an Adorno quote is a bad sign, but thanks for the recommendation! Lol, yes it is, but stick with it! Larry O 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Disco Stu 15,495 Posted January 9, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 9, 2020 5 minutes ago, Falstaft (hiatus til TROS) said: Lol, yes it is, but stick with it! I recently got about 5 pages into a dissertation comparing Copland and Mahler and I was getting a strong odor of BS. I did a Ctrl+F "adorno", got FIFTY-NINE results, and immediately closed the tab Falstaft, The Illustrious Jerry and Sharkissimo 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,054 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 I'm not familiar with Adorno, except for what I just read on Wikipedia. Why don't you like him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 1 minute ago, Jurassic Shark said: I'm not familiar with Adorno, except for what I just read on Wikipedia. Why don't you like him? I'm sure there are far more intellectually salient reasons to dislike him, but for me as a layman, he strikes me as someone who reverse engineered philosophy to just conveniently justify his own taste in music. Falstaft 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,054 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 Ok, sounds exhausting. I don't need any philosophical arguments in order to like what I like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 Pretty much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loert 2,511 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 So DOTF is the "wrong kind" of music? I wonder where I've heard that kind of language used before... Tydirium 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falstaft 2,132 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 16 minutes ago, Disco Stu said: I'm sure there are far more intellectually salient reasons to dislike him, but for me as a layman, he strikes me as someone who reverse engineered philosophy to just conveniently justify his own taste in music. There's a quote from Richard Taruskin at the beginning of his History of Western Music from 2005 that has always stayed with me. He calls Adorno "preposterously overrated" and laments that musicians and scholars are still engaging with his screeds. Adorno's hostility towards anything other than Beethoven, Schoenberg and a few select others is legendary, particular his distaste for jazz, popular music, and film music. Star Wars would be absolute anathema to him, on every conceivable level. Still, he was a brilliant music critic and hugely influential social theorist; his book on Wagner is especially a tour de force. It's just that no one especially wants to read him any more, most musicologists included... Sharkissimo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,054 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 . Falstaft 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holko 9,516 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 10 hours ago, Tydirium said: Star Wars builds on a long history of using Eastern music to depict evil on -creen or to convey to moviegoers that they are entering an alien world. It is an established Hollywood technique, going back to such classics as (...) Maurice Jarre’s score for “Lawrence of Arabia” (1962). Favourite bit might be this. Bitch, how the fuck did you expect the Arabic desert and tribes to be scored in a story about the clash of cultures, if not with Eastern-inspired music? It's the classic Voice of the Guns march that intrudes on the by then established soundscape, it's probably closer to evil or alien in context than the majestic Desert theme or the fun as hell triumphal theme, or even the heavy Arab II! Wouldn't you have just as much problem with Jarre hypothetically only using Western music for all of it? Jurassic Shark and Chen G. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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