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The Return of the Jedi (Sail Barge Assault)


Pellaeon

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1 hour ago, wowbobwow said:

 

One day it struck me that this phrase (timestamped)...

 

 

.. is a variation on this phrase from Star Wars (timestamped)

 

 

I love it.

 

 

Yep! It's the Death Star motif, which doubles as a triumphant heroes-blow-up-a-ship motif. 

 

One of many such wonderful details in ROTJ's score that makes it so rewarding to revisit over and over.

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I just listened this score today!

 

It's amazing how Williams intertwined tie fighter attack into the original cue, creating an amazingly fun and original cue that really does not count as copy paste...like the later track into the death star or the usage in the last jedi or other instances Williams has made in sequel scores

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I like the variation on Luke's theme in the Fred Steiner version but think the original cue is more interesting and ties into the rest of the score better.  I think some kind of mix between the two would be interesting.

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Yeah it is the original sail barge assault cue intertwined seamlessly with tie fighter attack.

 

 

Did Fred Steiner orchestrate this one or just "superstructure chase" ? 

 

 

I thought the other day...how would the star wars finales be if John had never rescored binary sunset with the more familiar force theme??

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1 hour ago, Fal J. M. Skywalker said:

From what I know the Fred Steiner thing was just a rumor.

 

A rumor started by his wife? In his obituary? That would be extraordinarily odd.

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To be fair, the wording in this part of his obituary is, I think, misleading (and I blame the L.A. Times writer): “Steiner contributed music to more than two dozen episodes of the original Star Trek TV series, music that resurfaced in 1979’s Star Trek: The Motion Picture”. Yes, I do think at least one of his TOS themes made it into TMP, i.e., was used by Goldsmith. But Steiner is also known for composing several cues directly for the film; however, in those cues, as far as I can tell, he does not use his own themes from TOS, but rather Goldsmith’s new thematic material, especially Goldsmith’s main (“Starfleet”) theme. I believe he was uncredited for these for a long time, for this reason, and it sounds like he was content with that. It sounds a lot like Goldsmith, except he gives it a sort of fun, TV punchiness that stands out in Goldsmith’s serious score.

 

So then there’s this bit, “He also provided music, although uncredited, for Star Wars Episode VI: Return of the Jedi in 1983.” If his uncredited work on ROTJ’s score is what’s suspected (i.e., the cues with a lot of recycled SW77 material), it is very similar to his work in TMP—it’s Williams’ themes, but stands out in its unserious nature compared to the rest of the score.

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More than anything, the original cue reminds me of running around on Nar Shaddaa and stupid Lando always dying.

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Maybe someone with more musical knowledge can explain it but, as far as I understand, one thing is to compose themes and another to adapt previous themes. I remember some declarations of Conrad Pope saying that working with Williams as an orchestrator is essentially being a copyists. I could imagine that Williams has always worked like that: he doesn't seem a person that delegates or improvise in his music, we know that he likes to see the movies he's going to score with time and even when he left William Ross or Gustavo Dudamel to conduct the orchestra he's sitting there probably giving indications and asking for another take if he doesn't like the interpretation. I don't know what Steiner did for Return of the Jedi but could have been to follow Williams indications and write the themes in the order he was asked for? 

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5 hours ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

Well, according to the sheet music itself, both versions of Jabba's End as well as Superstructure Chase were composed by John Williams and orchestrated by Herb Spencer.

That...ends the discussion I think.

6 hours ago, Holko said:

More than anything, the original cue reminds me of running around on Nar Shaddaa and stupid Lando always dying.

And fighting The twilek dark jedi Boc?

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4 hours ago, Luke Skywalker said:

 

9 hours ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

Well, according to the sheet music itself, both versions of Jabba's End as well as Superstructure Chase were composed by John Williams and orchestrated by Herb Spencer.

 

That...ends the discussion I think.

 

Well, the claim is that Fred Steiner’s work is uncredited, so, not sure if this changes anything.

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But Fred Steiner was involved. Back on FSM there was a confirmation from someone who had a brief glimpse as Steiner's assistant that he was working on a paper with Return of the Jedi written on it.

 

So he must have had some contribution at least as an orchestrator. And yet his name is nowhere to be found. I don't think that in this situation we can judge against him composing, if everything he actually did became officially signed at the very least as Spencer's (just like the cue Thomas Newman worked on).

 

Why would they have covered his involvement up is a bit weird to me. But maybe it's a guild or whatever thing.

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Could be a guild thing indeed. The Thomas Newman situation is true, he worked on the Death of Vader cue and in the official releases is not credited anywhere... Does his name appear in the original score sheet? 

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On 1/22/2020 at 12:23 PM, Pellaeon said:

Which version of “Jabba’s End” do you listen to in your main RotJ playlist, and which do you consider the alternate?

 

This is a tough one.  The revised version is what we all grew up with, what was on the OST and both expanded releases in the main program, and what's in the film.. and all we ever heard until 10 years after the movie came out.  The original version therefore just always "sounds" like I'm listening to a bonus track to me, I can't shake it.

 

But on the other hand, that original version is a great piece of music, and  if had never been revised, I don't think we'd think it was odd, or out of place in the score... and the revision is more or less just existing Star Wars music re-arranged.  So by rights the original version should be int he main program and the revision be the bonus track, but I dunno, it's hard for me to think of them that way, still, even after all these years.

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18 hours ago, DrTenma said:

Could be a guild thing indeed. The Thomas Newman situation is true, he worked on the Death of Vader cue and in the official releases is not credited anywhere... Does his name appear in the original score sheet? 


No, but it’s possible to recognize it’s Thomas Newman from other sheet music he’s written. He’s got a distinctive way of boxing in time signatures, for one thing:image.png

 

Vader’s Death is not the only cue he orchestrated for RotJ, either: he also did ‘Vader Contacts Luke’ and ‘After the Bike Chase’.

 

It’s not very unusual for orchestrators apart from the lead orchestrator not to receive credit for working on these scores, for whatever reason. Only Herbert Spencer is officially credited for Return of the Jedi, but Alexander Courage and Gordon Langford also contributed, in addition to Newman.

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I guess it depends how involved orchestrating for Williams is. His modern sketches are so detailed that orchestrators have become redundant, with his sketches now going straight to the music service for printing.

 

Did he delegate more to his orchestrators back in the 80s or, in the words of Conrad Pope, they've always been "glorified copyists" and modern software has just made it easier to bypass their involvement?

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7 hours ago, crumbs said:

I guess it depends how involved orchestrating for Williams is. His modern sketches are so detailed that orchestrators have become redundant, with his sketches now going straight to the music service for printing.

 

Did he delegate more to his orchestrators back in the 80s or, in the words of Conrad Pope, they've always been "glorified copyists" and modern software has just made it easier to bypass their involvement?

 

Now that he doesn't use orchestrators anymore, he tends to include even more detail than he used to, but his sketches were already very detailed back in the OT days - plus there was verbal communication with the orchestrators as they worked.

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18 hours ago, Jay said:

 

This is a tough one.  The revised version is what we all grew up with, what was on the OST and both expanded releases in the main program, and what's in the film.. and all we ever heard until 10 years after the movie came out.  The original version therefore just always "sounds" like I'm listening to a bonus track to me, I can't shake it.

 

But on the other hand, that original version is a great piece of music, and  if had never been revised, I don't think we'd think it was odd, or out of place in the score... and the revision is more or less just existing Star Wars music re-arranged.  So by rights the original version should be int he main program and the revision be the bonus track, but I dunno, it's hard for me to think of them that way, still, even after all these years.

I sometimes prefer the original cues in some scores because the revisions are more restrained and not as thematically involved...but in the case of star wars...I think I would dislike having this and binary sunset original in the main program. So I hope Mike matessino makes the correct decision ;)

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The film version feels too much like a re-hash of existing music. Never was one of my favorite track except the last part. I like the original version better.

 

I remember TV previews of RotJ had that victory fanfare bit and it sounded cool

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The original is too grim and dark and... actiony? for the "ear to ear grin, the heroes are finally truly back!" feel this setpiece should give you and the new version definitely gives you.

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23 hours ago, wowbobwow said:

For fun, I've done an edit that mixes the two different versions together.

 

 

Neat! Can you break it down for us, which sections you used from which version?

 

Did you use the 1993 or 1997 tracks as your basis?

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4 minutes ago, Pellaeon said:

 

Neat! Can you break it down for us, which sections you used from which version?

 

Did you use the 1993 or 1997 tracks as your basis?

 

1997.  The edit is actually really simple.  Starts out with the film edit.  It branches over to the alternate after Jabba's theme plays (2:01).  Then during the build up to the fanfare at the end, I crossfaded it back to the film edit (so it book ends the piece with Luke's theme.. 4:05ish).  Hopefully the edits are not noticeable.

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