TESB the score is too big for the movie

[Mr. Breathmask 480]

Everytime I listen to The Empire Strikes Back, it blows me away. This score is John Williams in all his genius. It's like an opera of Wagnerian proportions. It's bigger than the movie it was made for.

The way I see this, is that TESB is Williams going full force, pulling all the plugs. While the film has its flaws (naturally, like any other film, good or bad), I can find none in the score (except perhaps for the use of Yoda's theme in Cloud City, but the pure melodic value of it makes it all work).

I wish Williams could do this again. Write a score without constraints. Without his music being butchered.

In my humble opinion, TESB is the best work Williams has ever done. Too bad I wasn't around to see TESB in theatres when it was first released.

Feel free to discuss.

- Marc

[Nemesis 125]

Are you Okay?

IMO it fit perfect!

Nemesis - who's wondering what's going on.... :roll:

[Mr. Breathmask 480]

Well, I'm not trying to bash this score in any way. Like I said, it blows me away. It's just that whenever I hear it on its own, I get a far grander picture than what is actually in the film. It's hard to explain.

- Marc

Main Title and First Victim from Jaws

[Marian Schedenig 5,520]

It's just that whenever I hear it on its own, I get a far grander picture than what is actually in the film.

Heh, you should go and listen to some Goldsmith scores. 8O

Marian - who thinks Williams most-"without constraints" score is The Fury. (Well, perhaps Images qualifies, from a strictly technical POV)

8O Rebel Without a Cause (Leonard Rosenman)

[Adam 1]

I think that the way that ESB was made accounts for the fact that most of us regard it as the stand-out score of the series, and perhaps his career. That film is the reason I wish Kershner(sp?) was directing all of the films. The film is the most rich, has the most compelling characters and acting, has lots of fast-paced action focused on character without all of the quick, hectic edits of ROTJ and the prequels. It has a greater sense of fantasy. Its darker with a tinge of meloncholy running throughout.

I think the score relfects all of these qualities and its why it is my favorite score. I can't imagine a score like that existing in the prequels, even without all of the bad edits.

That's not to say he doesn't get constrained from time to time by a director who pulls him back, but I think that, in general, his output corresponds closely with the qualities and dynamics of the film itself.

- Adam

[JoeinAR 1,759]

yeah whatever, he wrote a better score for the first film, but whatever melts your butter

[Luke Skywalker 1,284]

That film is the reason I wish Kershner(sp?) was directing all of the films. The film is the most rich... ...has lots of fast-paced action focused on character without all of the quick, hectic edits of ROTJ and the prequels. It has a greater sense of fantasy. Its darker with a tinge of meloncholy running throughout.

That's barely Kershner's doing.

... has the most compelling characters and acting...

In those things, yes he had something to do.

I can't imagine a score like that existing in the prequels, even without all of the bad edits.

Well, for me (and some others) TPM is also masterpiece.

[Adam 1]

I think he wrote great scores for all of the films including Star Wars and the prequels. The point is that the character and nature of the score is determined to a large extent by the character and nature of the film. So, if somebody thinks Star Wars is a better score, its probably because they prefer those qualities that the first film had which is reflected in the music. Although if no argument is provided, I can only guess.

- Adam

[Lurker 5]

yeah whatever, he wrote a better score for the first film, but whatever melts your butter

No surprise here, but I agree with you Joe. Star Wars is really a score all of its own. I don't care what is said about the themes and the saga, Star Wars has a unique sound all of its own. It is clearly a very romantic 19th century sounding score. None of the other scores in the series are that way, particularly The Empire Strikes Back. A lot of Empire is very modern sounding, which is quite a departure from the sound of Star Wars. Believe me, I'm not attacking the score to Empire. I listen to it quite a bit and enjoy it, but it is clearly a departure from Star Wars and I'm not convinced that is necessarily a good thing.

Neil

[Yoda Longbottom 0]

Star Wars is really a score all of its own.  I don't care what is said about the themes and the saga, Star Wars has a unique sound all of its own.  It is clearly a very romantic 19th century sounding score.  None of the other scores in the series are that way, particularly The Empire Strikes Back.  A lot of Empire is very modern sounding, which is quite a departure from the sound of Star Wars.

I perhaps couldn't agree more, Indy.

I'm wondering, though, whther John Williams himself thinks his best work is yet to come. It might be the case he does not want to top his own favorite, Close Encounters, but I terribly wish he did, though, just to throw off all contemporary composers who're attempting to climb the same ladder thinking they're even better. They're not, by far. No one is.

Williams is the One and he just needs to pen one more finest score to open their eyes. I still believe he can do it. And he very well should. Not for the glittering Oscar, just for himself and for his fans. Please, Johnny.

Roman.-)

[Justin 2]

but whatever melts your butter

With ESB the butter has been melted and poured over a huge bowl of popcorn. 8O

Justin

[Elmo Lewis 6]

yeah whatever, he wrote a better score for the first film, but whatever melts your butter

Why does it sound like you are mercifully sparing his life despite having that opinion?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251]

[ I listen to it quite a bit and enjoy it, but it is clearly a departure from Star Wars and I'm not convinced that is necessarily a good thing.

Neil

Well, your opinions suck, and so do you!!!

8O

Personally, although Star wars is a brilliant score, I consider TESB superiour, and probably because it has a more modern sound.

With Star wars, Williams obviously composed an homage to the Golden Age type scoring.

It's actually LESS unique then the other 2, IMO

TESB gives of less of Williams nodding to Korngold and Rozsa and more of his own style.

But in the end it's not important which of the original trilogy scores is best, the only important thing is that he composed them. 8O

Stefancos- who wishes Williams could still write music like that today.

[Trumpeteer 243]

I'm agreeing with a lot of what everyone has said here. Marc, if you voted in -- or saw the results of -- the JWFan.net Top 10, you know how high a regard we hold "The Empire Strikes Back."

I've always believed that "Empire" works as a stand-alone piece, much more than any other work Williams has written. The score truly defines "space opera": tragedy, exhiliration, comedy, epic battles, etc.

As to whether or not "Star Wars" is a better score, I cannot answer that. Both have very different arguments for being the better score, but I like "Empire" most because it mixes a little bit of the old 19th century music with the modern feel of symphonic scores, complete with the use of synthesizers.

Jeff -- thinking Episode III will have some of those grander moments from "Empire"

[Marian Schedenig 5,520]

With ESB the butter has been melted and poured over a huge bowl of popcorn. 8O

8O Poor popcorn.

Marian - thinking of buying a popcorn machine.

[Mr. Breathmask 480]

Jeff, I did not vote in the JWFan top 10, basically because I hadn't heard enough of Williams full body of work to really shape an opinion (at that time I hadn't heard CE3K, Jaws or Superman, to name a few). I did see the final results though.

What I am saying is just that this is a stand-alone opera almost. And listen to the music that didn't make it to the movie. Every single bit of it is great.

- Marc, off to school. 8O 8O 8O

8O

[Chris ChrusherComix 27]

TESB always blows me away too. It is an utter masterpiece. I listen to the Dual LP OST (CD-R transfer, of course), I listen to the 4 CD set, and I listen to the Special Edition. All... MASTERPIECE material! 8O

I've been on a Star Wars soundtrack kick of late, and although they all are great (I love the prequels as well, although AOTC is certainly disappointing, it's still a VERY good score).

Look, all the original trilogy made the top 10. Why argue about which one is better? Even though they came in the same order I like doesn't mean that I am right on this either... it's just a popularity contest 8O

Chris, Noting that TESB, The Fury, and (2-3 tracks on) Images contain some of his favorite music in the John Williams collection...

PS- Why does Joe always have to act like people who have a slightly different opinion than him are somehow crazy or significantly mentally deficient? 8O

[Rogue_Leader 2]

I completely disagree!

ESB is one of the best movies ever made!

The score matches the movie perfectly!

It pefectly compliments a film and heightens the already powerful drama.

[charlesk 0]

Comparing Star Wars score with ESB score is like comparing a Mahler symphony with a Shostakovich one. One is in romantic style, the other is modern. You may like one style over the other, but we cannot compare side by side these things. You can't say Shostakovich is bad because he doesn't have Mahler's romantic style.

I like Star Wars score for its operatic, romantic style, and I get exhilarated with the 20th brutality of the modernist ESB. Williams work in both movies is superb, and he should have won an Oscar for both. Both scores redefined how film scores were seen; Star Wars redefined the score as a protagonist, and Empire redefined the limits of orchestration and virtuosism in film music. I pretty much believe that other film composers where blown away with the virtuosism of Empire, and they are trying to imitate it since then.

As for the ESB movie itself, is one of the more balanced ones, marvelously dealing with the multiple plots and alternating action with great content and character development. It also has one of the most amazing turning points in cinema.

[Mr. Breathmask 480]

I completely disagree!  

ESB is one of the best movies ever made!  

The score matches the movie perfectly!  

It pefectly compliments a film and heightens the already powerful drama.

Er... like I said, my intent was never to talk down on ESB. Maybe I should have said it's BIGGER than the film, instead of TOO BIG. Please read carefully.

- Marc

[Trumpeteer 243]

Williams work in both movies is superb, and he should have won an Oscar for both.

I agree, I agree. I just listened to Alan Parker's commentary on the

"Fame" DVD, and I now know that Michael Gore's involvement with the film was purely with the songs, and two or three minutes of original score. He was hired as a music supervisor, because the intent was to use mostly existing songs. But he wrote the now-famous title song, as well as three other very good ones. But, as we have discovered in the years since, the Academy liked the "song score" so much they decided that it was the score to the film, and thus gave Gore the award.

And those three minutes of original score aren't that hot (and are mixed very low). But it's all in the past now.

Jeff -- who laughed when Alan Parker said that the Best Song Oscar went to "Out Here on My Own," instead of "Fame," which is absolutely wrong.

[AC1 3,565]

Charlesk wrote:

As for the ESB movie itself, is one of the more balanced ones,...

Except for its "come and see next week" ending which, after all, could been the best thing that ever happened to ESB. It surely beats fireworks or holograms waving their hands.

----------------

Alex Cremers

[Luke Skywalker 1,284]

It surely beats fireworks or holograms waving their hands.

---------------

Alex Cremers

Oh I thought they were the spirits of the Jedi.

How nice of them, leaving a recorded holomessage for Luke

[JoeinAR 1,759]

PS- Why does Joe always have to act like people who have a slightly different opinion than him are somehow crazy or significantly mentally deficient?  

Yeah whatever Chris, how you think me posting my opinion that Star Wars is a better score, makes Marc look crazy or mentally

deficient is beyond, me, but whatever melts your butter!

Joe, guessing Marian doesn't like butter on his popcorn

[AC1 3,565]

Luke wrote:

Oh I thought they were the spirits of the Jedi.  

How nice of them, leaving a recorded holomessage for Luke  

For all we know, jedi's might return as holograms. Proof me wrong.

They're not like us...they're........well...jedi's.

----------------

Alex Cremers

[Marian Schedenig 5,520]

Joe, guessing Marion doesn't like butter on his popcorn

And neither do I.

Marian - from Austria, where the standard popcorn is salted but not buttered.

[stewdog1 50]

I've always believed that "Empire" works as a stand-alone piece, much more than any other work Williams has written. The score truly defines "space opera": tragedy, exhiliration, comedy, epic battles, etc.

Of everything that has been said, Jeff I think epitomizes what I think most about this score.

None of his other scores come as close as TESB at standing alone. You don't need the images of the movie to capture what is going on in the music.

It's almost as if the music guides the movie and we are seeing the story that music is saying.

[JoeinAR 1,759]

Marian - from Austria, where the standard popcorn is salted but not buttered.

Joe, from America, where the standard popcorn is salted and buttered.

Or so many other ways.

PS. I made the correction to your name, sorry.

[Ozzel 0]

In reference to Mr. Breakthmasks's original post, probably one of the reasons the complete score seems too big to fit the movie is because in reality so much of JW's material went unused -- moreso than the other two OT scores -- if I'm not mistaken.

Beyond that, ESB's score wonderfully matches the darker moods prevalent in this film, which in effect may make it less fun to listen to than, say, the score for Star Wars, but that is not a weakness of the score. The score has no weaknesses IMO. And correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't this score introduce the most themes than SW's and ROTJ's score?

-Imperial/Vader's theme

-Yoda's theme

-Love theme

-Boba Fett/bounty hunter theme (debatable)

-A new droid theme

-Lando's/Bespin theme

Am I missing any?

[Marian Schedenig 5,520]

PS.  I made the correction to your name, sorry.

No problem. beerchug

Marian - who got a package addressed to "Mrs. Marian Schedenig" today...

[Lurker 5]

I've received the occasional piece of mail made out to "Ms. Neil S. Bulk".

Neil

[King Mark 2,924]

Well,the score is too big,because a lot of it didn't end up in the movie.

K.M.

[Chris ChrusherComix 27]

PS- Why does Joe always have to act like people who have a slightly different opinion than him are somehow crazy or significantly mentally deficient?  

Yeah whatever Chris, how you think me posting my opinion that Star Wars is a better score, makes Marc look crazy or mentally

deficient is beyond, me,---

No, it makes it look like you believe that your opinion that Star Wars is clearly superior than The Empire Strikes Back is absolute truth and anybody who disagrees is absolute fiction. But, whatever floats your boat, right?

On that subject, I've always said I like all three movies of the original Trilogy equally (with a slight nudge to Empire).

I also think the Prequels are a notch or two (or in the case of AOTC, three or four) below them now, but I don't hate them with a passion like so many do and I still think they are highly entertaining movies and enjoyed them more than most other movies I've seen.

---but whatever melts your butter!

I melt my butter usually on 12-grain toast. If it's fresh out of the fridge and too cold to spread, I'll throw it in the microwave for 10 seconds or so.

My popcorn? I like all sorts of toppings. Butter and/or salt, sometimes caramel or cheese-sauce is good too.

OH.... and I never use margarine on ANYTHING... hydrogenated oils are artery cloggers and the #1 secret killers in the world.

[Rogue_Leader 2]

For all we know, jedi's might return as holograms. Proof me wrong.  

They're not like us...they're........well...jedi's.  

Why not? Most of them spent much of their life as CG images in Lucas's stories.

They may as well be CG in death as well.

[AC1 3,565]

LOL

----------------

Alex Cremers

[Rogue_Leader 2]

OH yeah and I know I have said this before but It needs to be said again ...

Empire Strikes Back is THE

BEST ......... SCORE ......... EVER!!!!!!!

[Justin 2]

Justin - Who says the same to Raiders.

[Rogue_Leader 2]

Raiders in WAY up there.

Top 5 definately.

[Elmo Lewis 6]

Raiders in WAY up there.  

Top 5 definately.

Yeah, well....

[Justin 2]

You're right it's definatly in the top 1.

Justin

[scissorhands 16]

Oh, yeah, I agree. Empire of the Sun is the best score ever.

If Raiders is Top 5, Doom is Top 4 and Crusade Top 3

[King Mark 2,924]

The Empire Srikes back is the best Williams score or any score.and heck it's the best music composed by anyone ever.

[Rogue_Leader 2]

The Empire Srikes back is the best Williams score or any score.and heck it's the best music composed by anyone ever.

Now that is what I am talking about!!! That is being bold and trult showing your fandom there. beerchug

[JoeinAR 1,759]

best Score ever would be E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial, and it did something Empire Strikes Back was incapable of, it won the Oscar.

If the Empire Strikes Back is so great then why did it lose to

no matter how great it is, thats a shame it must live down forever.

FAME, I'm gonna live forever, I beat the Empire Strikes Back butt, FAME,

I took home the Oscar, Empire Strike Back did not, FAME

You have to admit those are some powerful lyrics.

[Elmo Lewis 6]

Although an Oscar means nothing to me, I agree with Joe. E.T. can't be beaten because it has something ESB lacks: heart-stirring emotions.

[Trumpeteer 243]

Although an Oscar means nothing to me, I agree with Joe. E.T. can't be beaten because it has something ESB lacks: heart-stirring emotions.

What are you talking about?? ESB has plenty of heart-stirring emotions. The last 30 minutes are a rollercoaster.

Jeff --

[Justin 2]

I agree. Ever heard Carbon Freeze, Ross?

And Joe, why don't you just can it over there.

Justin -Who also noticed that CMIYC didn't win....Frida! Frida! Frida!

[Luke Skywalker 1,284]

For all we know, jedi's might return as holograms. Proof me wrong.  

They're not like us...they're........well...jedi's.  

Why not? Most of them spent much of their life as CG images in Lucas's stories.

They may as well be CG in death as well.

Well, alex was talking about the OT, wich had not CGI jedi.. so you failed on that one.

Anyway, Alex, are you serious?! Can't you see the difference between the spirits and the holograms in SW?

Just check them.

Joe, i hope you were sarcastic.

Both ET and ESB deserved to win (well, ESB should). And at least one Indy movie should have too. Well we will have to live with that....

[Elmo Lewis 6]

 

What are you talking about?? ESB has plenty of heart-stirring emotions. The last 30 minutes are a rollercoaster.

Jeff --  

Nah. It's adrenaline-pumping, exciting, fast, entertaining, pulsating, and heart-stopping. It's a great finale and a great soundtrack. But from that score, only Yoda & The Force moves me half as much as E.T.

Conlusion? Both scores are different enough to not have them compete against each other. But I had to keep one, that'll be E.T.

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

Yep, E.T. gets my vote for the best as well. But I have recently been listening to ESB a lot and I can see that it really is an outstanding score.

Ray Barnsbury-whose top ten has changed a lot since the official vote