John Williams' Oliver Stone scores won't be sold as a box set

[Brundlefly 2,399]

13 hours ago, Thor said:

The OST has the perfect representation of the score.

Considering how redundant the score is, I almost agree. Five additional minutes of specific cues (that feature new and great music) would have made it a perfect 30 minutes album.

[Jurassic Shark 13,705]

14 hours ago, Thor said:

I had the BOT4OJ expanded bootleg once

 

Busted!

[Thor 8,682]

Oh, I've tried plenty of expansions over the years -- both illegal and legal.

[1977 1,746]

@Thor have you ever found a 40-odd minute OST that you feel is too long? I'm really not being facetious, I am just curious.

[Thor 8,682]

1 hour ago, JTWfan77 said:

@Thor have you ever found a 40-odd minute OST that you feel is too long? I'm really not being facetious, I am just curious.

 

Length is usually irrelevant to me, it's all about the sequencing and general representation of the score. That being said, I can't really think of any OSTs that were too long at 40 minutes, even those that are mono-thematic and/or relatively static. Well, scores I dislike to begin with are too long at even 1 minute (Giacchino stuff, for example), but that's a different discussion.

[bruce marshall 1,403]

On 6/8/2020 at 4:14 AM, Thor said:

Oh, I've tried plenty of expansions[drugs] over the years -- both illegal and legal.

You make  " expansions " sound like " drugs" !😁

[bespinGPT 8,907]

1 hour ago, bruce marshall said:

You make  " expansions " sound like " drugs" !😁

 

It is.

 

IT

 

IS

[GerateWohl 5,341]

By the way. I really like the score of BOT4OJ, but it always irritated me that the solo trumpet intro sounds like the beginning of the main title of The Terminator. Anyone else same impression?

[Thor 8,682]

9 hours ago, bruce marshall said:

You make  " expansions " sound like " drugs" !😁

 

In a way, yes. They're like a bad trip you can't get out of. Like that scene in TRAINSPOTTING where Ewan McGregor sees the baby on the ceiling.

[Holko 10,703]

Says the man so hooked on OSTs he breaks bootleg expansion discs he bought for whatever reason in half because he gets so pissy over them.

[bruce marshall 1,403]

8 minutes ago, Thor said:

 

In a way, yes. They're like a bad trip you can't get out of. Like that scene in TRAINSPOTTING where Ewan McGregor sees the baby on the ceiling.

Well, when they are just a "collection of cues",  yeah.😗

So now we're talking expansions on AMISTAD.and. JFK?!😡

[crumbs 15,069]

On 08/06/2020 at 4:01 AM, BrotherSound said:

Might as well complete the triptych and break down Born On The Fourth Of July, too, though it’s by far the most straightforward of the three, with no cue combinations at all.

 

Cue list:

 

1MX Trumpet Prologue

1M1 Acting Out The Future

1M1 Alt - Kids At Play

1M1A Earliest Memories

1M5 Early Days

2M1 On The Mat

2M2 The Call To Duty

2M3 Recruiting Scene

2M4 After The Soda Shoppe

4M2 The Shooting Of Wilson

5M1 (New Start) Ron Is Hit

5M1 Ron Is Hit

5MA Approaching The Village

7M1 The Homecoming

8M3X Parade Overlay

8M4 Off The Platform

10M1 Campus Rally

11M2 To Mexico

12M5 Shopping For Present

12M7 Montage Of Girls

12M8 Writing The Wilsons

13M1 To Georgia

13M1 Insert

15M1 Convention Disturbance

15M2 The 1972 Convention

15M3 Alternate

15M3 Short Version

End Credit Intro

End Credits

Ron’s Theme

 

OST breakdown:

 

1–8 Various pop songs

 

9 Prologue 1:24

1M1 Acting Out The Future

 

10 The Early Days, Massapequa 5:00

1M5 Early Days

 

11 The Shooting Of Wilson 5:09

4M2 The Shooting Of Wilson

 

12 Cua Viet River, Vietnam, 1968 5:20

0:00-0:31 5M1 (New Start) Ron Is Hit

0:31-end 5M1 Ron Is Hit

 

13 Homecoming 2:39

0:00-0:55 13M1 To Georgia

0:55-end 13M1 Insert

 

14 Born On The Fourth Of July 5:42

End Credits

 

Has anyone ever done a breakdown of the bootleg to see if it covers everything Williams wrote, per the leaked cue list? At first glance it appears the original ending for 13M1 is missing, but it seems most of the other alternates or inserts might be accounted for (in the alternates section).

 

The cue titles don't match the track titles, which confuses things.

 

[TownerFan 5,378]

Track 1, 19 and 21 are not alternates. They are taken from the concert suite as recorded for the Music for Stage and Screen 1990 Sony Classical album.

[thx99 1,906]

6 minutes ago, TownerFan said:

Track 1, 19 and 21 are not alternates. They are taken from the concert suite as recorded for the Music for Stage and Screen 1990 Sony Classical album.

 

I believe 30 is also not an alternate but rather a Silva Screen/City of Prague Phil. re-recording, with an unfortunate dialogue excerpt tacked onto its end.

 

Also, the version of the main theme featured on a 2-track CD promo, a 2-CD MCA Records promo compilation of film score and songs named "Reel Music", and the music video released at the time of the film is also not included on the boot, nor the OST.

 

Several years ago, I married a rip of the 2-track promo CD with the music video:

 

 

[crumbs 15,069]

Interesting! But everything else is from the film sessions? 

 

I've never bothered to investigate whether the various alternates are legitimate or just a fan getting creative with their assembly. 

[TownerFan 5,378]

 

1 minute ago, crypto said:

Interesting! But everything else is from the film sessions? 

 

I've never bothered to investigate whether the various alternates are legitimate or just a fan getting creative with their assembly. 

 

I'm checking it now against the sheet music. Most of the stuff is from the actual film sessions, but a few cues have been edited together since they're quite short. I'll try to make a list later today.

[crumbs 15,069]

12 minutes ago, thx99 said:

 

I believe 30 is also not an alternate but rather a Silva Screen/City of Prague Phil. re-recording, with an unfortunate dialogue excerpt tacked onto its end.

 

Also, the version of the main theme featured on a 2-track CD promo, a 2-CD MCA Records promo compilation of film score and songs named "Reel Music", and the music video released at the time of the film is also not included on the boot, nor the OST.

 

Several years ago, I married a rip of the 2-track promo CD with the music video:

 

 

 

I had no idea this existed! Wow! Is it likely this recording would be included on a future MM expansion? It might not have been recorded at the same time as the film score sessions. 

 

8 minutes ago, TownerFan said:

 

 

I'm checking it now against the sheet music. Most of the stuff is from the actual film sessions, but a few cues have been edited together since they're quite short. I'll try to make a list later today.

 

That would be amazing @TownerFan!! Thanks! 

 

I'm very curious how repetitive this score would be in C&C form, and also whether the various alternates, inserts and overlays are substantially different. 

 

Hopefully there's some good stuff in the actual sessions that didn't leak with the bootleg, saved for an official expansion someday!

[thx99 1,906]

Just now, crypto said:

 

I had no idea this existed! Wow! Is it likely this recording would be included on a future release though? It might not have been recorded at the same time as the film score sessions. 

 

I imagine the version heard on the promos and in the music video was recorded during the original sessions, or was produced shortly thereafter.  It seems this version is amped up with some "sweeteners" (synth, likely) compared to the OST version.

 

The 2-track promo was released in '89, the same year as the film and OST...

 

 

And "Reel Music" was released around '91 (it features a cue from Silence of the Lambs which appears to be the most recent film represented in the set; the CDs came in a metal film can)...

 

[crumbs 15,069]

That's awesome! Seems likely it was recorded around the same time as the sessions then, yeah! Good thing it was previously released on an MCA album, who I think also own the rights to the music on the OST.

 

I think BOT4J is the only remaining MCA release that hasn't been expanded! 

[Jay 40,265]

29 minutes ago, crypto said:

I think BOT4J is the only remaining MCA release that hasn't been expanded! 

 

By Williams, sure.  By all artists? Not even close!

[BrotherSound 2,321]

48 minutes ago, crypto said:

Hopefully there's some good stuff in the actual sessions that didn't leak with the bootleg, saved for an official expansion someday!

 

There might be: there's quite a bit in the sheet music that isn't on the bootleg, but of course, no guarantee any of it was ever recorded.

[BrotherSound 2,321]

15 hours ago, crypto said:

Has anyone ever done a breakdown of the bootleg to see if it covers everything Williams wrote, per the leaked cue list? At first glance it appears the original ending for 13M1 is missing, but it seems most of the other alternates or inserts might be accounted for (in the alternates section).

 

The cue titles don't match the track titles, which confuses things.

Yeah, it’s very evident whoever put out the bootleg only had the audio without any knowledge of what each track actually was.

 

Here’s what I came up with:

 

1 Overture / Main Theme

from Boston Pops recording ‘Music for Stage and Screen’

 

2 Prologue

1M1 Acting Out The Future

 

3 Wargames

1M1A Earliest Memories

 

4 The Early Days, Massapequa

1M5 Early Days

 

5 High School

0:00-0:30 2M2 The Call To Duty

0:30-1:52 2M3 Recruiting Scene

1:52-end 2M4 After The Soda Shoppe

 

6 The Shooting Of Wilson

4M2 The Shooting Of Wilson

 

7 Patrolling the Fields

5MA Approaching the Village

 

8 Cua Viet River, Vietnam

0:00-0:31 5M1 (New Start) Ron Is Hit

0:31-end 5M1 Ron Is Hit

 

9 Back In The Neighborhood

7M1 The Homecoming

 

10 The Parade / Timmy

0:00-0:58 1M1 Acting Out The Future

0:58-end unknown

 

11 The Syracuse Rally

10M1 Campus Rally

 

12 Villa Dulce

0:00-0:30 11M2 (Revised?) To Mexico

0:30-end unknown

 

13 Unfinished Letters

12M8 Writing The Wilsons

 

14 Homecoming

0:00-0:55 13M1 To Georgia

0:55-end 13M1 Insert

 

15 Miami Confrontation

0:00-1:15 15M1 Convention Disturbance

1:15-end unknown

 

16 The Democratic Convention

15M3 Short Version

 

17 End Titles

End Credits

 

18 Prologue (Alternate)

unknown

 

19 The Early Days, Massapequa (Alternate)

from Boston Pops recording ‘Music for Stage and Screen’

 

20 High School (Alternate)

0:00-0:33 2M3 Recruiting Scene

0:33-end unknown

 

21 Cua Viet River, Vietnam (Alternate)

from Boston Pops recording ‘Music for Stage and Screen’

 

22 Ron’s Speech

12M8 Writing The Wilsons [a different take than track 13]

 

23 Timmy (Alternate)

12M7 Montage Of Girls

 

24 The Syracuse Convention (Alternate)

15M2 The 1972 Convention

 

25 Remembering Vietnam

15M3 Alternate

 

26 Miami Confrontation (Alternate)

15M2 The 1972 Convention [starting in the middle, with an added pickup note]

 

27 The Democratic Convention, NYC (Alternate)

Ron’s Theme

 

28 Victory

2M1 On The Mat

 

29 Epilogue

1MX Trumpet Prologue

w/ annoying, out-of-time snare drum overlay

 

30 End Titles (Alternate)

City of Prague Philharmonic re-recording

 

@TownerFan Are you able to fill in any of the gaps?

 

That leaves these cues are missing, but as to whether they were actually recorded, I couldn’t tell you:

 

1M1 Alt - Kids At Play
8M3X Parade Overlay

12M5 Shopping For Present
 

Also, 1M1 has another section of music written after the opening trumpet fanfare that’s not present here.

[crumbs 15,069]

11 hours ago, Jay said:

 

By Williams, sure.  By all artists? Not even close!

 

Yes I meant MCA releases by Williams, of course!

 

1 hour ago, BrotherSound said:

Yeah, it’s very evident whoever put out the bootleg only had the audio without any knowledge of what each track actually was.

 

Here’s what I came up with:

 

Fantastic stuff, thanks mate!

 

Quite a lot of unknown music in there, intriguingly... so perhaps both the bootleg and sheet music leaks are incomplete. Mike always finds interesting stuff in the sessions that nobody knew about -- no doubt it'll be a similar case when he gets around to this score.

 

I'm not a huge fan of the weird snare drum overlay in 1MX Trumpet Prologue (funny how the bootleg calls it Epilogue). Wonder if that was baked into the recording?

[BrotherSound 2,321]

2 hours ago, crypto said:

I'm not a huge fan of the weird snare drum overlay in 1MX Trumpet Prologue (funny how the bootleg calls it Epilogue). Wonder if that was baked into the recording?

Yeah, something feels really off about this one to me. I imagining things or did I read at one point this was put together for some kind of promo (presumably without JW’s involvement)?

[crumbs 15,069]

First I'm hearing about it, but I also knew nothing of that other MCA promo album. Can't say I've ever looked deeply into the Stone scores (though the more I hear, the more I desperately want all 3 expanded by Mike and the labels!!)

[TownerFan 5,378]

7 hours ago, BrotherSound said:

Yeah, it’s very evident whoever put out the bootleg only had the audio without any knowledge of what each track actually was.

 

Here’s what I came up with:

 

@TownerFan Are you able to fill in any of the gaps?

 

 

I was about to sit down and start my analysis when I saw you did already and saved me a lot of time lol Thanks a lot for your effort. I will try to see if some of those unrecognized bits are somewhere else, but I see that you got virtually everything down already.

[Brundlefly 2,399]

Wow, the bootleg is all over the place...

[crumbs 15,069]

Yeah!

 

Now I want to re-arrange the bootleg into C&C order and delete the non-JW recordings!

 

And is it just me or does the bootleg sound pretty good, all things considered? Seems to be roughly on par with the quality of the OST (though it's a very mediocre sounding OST... would love to get a proper Matessino remaster of this recording, if the elements were archived properly).

[Jurassic Shark 13,705]

Yeah, we need a better sounding release of American Pie.

[Jay 40,265]

I put all the work done in this thread into a google doc - did I miss anything?

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rc35wZGL0iW728YbadGMPn0gFyQYj47yCGsmFeNW8PA

[crumbs 15,069]

16 minutes ago, Jay said:

I put all the work done in this thread into a google doc - did I miss anything?

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rc35wZGL0iW728YbadGMPn0gFyQYj47yCGsmFeNW8PA

 

Thanks Jay, you beat me to it! This was going to be a weekend job

 

I guess you could add the track from the MCA promo disc, though we have no confirmation if that was recorded during the film sessions (or just something done a bit later, for promotional purposes).

 

Also, if I'm reading the breakdown correctly, do the tracks Cua Viet River, Vietnam and Homecoming (5M1 and 13M1) contain both Williams' original versions plus the revised inserts, back to back? As opposed to replacing the relevant section, as in the film?

 

And should the duration of Cua Viet River, Vietnam, 1968 in the OST column be 5:20, not 5:02?

[Jay 40,265]

Just now, crypto said:

I guess you could add the track from the MCA promo disc, though we have no confirmation if that was recorded during the film sessions (or just something done a bit later, for promotional purposes).

 

Yea I guess

 

Just now, crypto said:

Also, if I'm reading the breakdown correctly, do the tracks Cua Viet River, Vietnam and Homecoming (5M1 and 13M1) contain both Williams' original versions plus the revised inserts, back to back? As opposed to replacing the relevant section, as in the film?

 

I have no idea, Brothersound's posts do not say

[crumbs 15,069]

4 minutes ago, Jay said:

I have no idea, Brothersound's posts do not say

 

A quick spectogram comparison indicates the boot just used the OST tracks in both instances, though there's some subtle compression going on in the higher frequencies.

 

Just listening to the two tracks, it seems likely we only have the revised/insert versions. It certainly doesn't sound like two versions back to back in the same track, or anything unusual like that.

 

So my best guess is the original opening of 5M1 Ron Is Hit and the original ending of 13M1 To Georgia are both unreleased and missing from the bootleg (because they just retained the edited, OST versions).

 

Correct me if I'm wrong @BrotherSound or @TownerFan!

[Brundlefly 2,399]

The rest of Villa Dulce is obviously missing on the sheet music, because 00:30-01:33 clearly comes after 11M2 in the movie, taking place in Mexico.

[Jay 40,265]

Makes sense, most sheet music leaks are missing one or more cues. 

 

If it appeared in the movie, it's title should be in those gema sabam bmi etc sites

[BrotherSound 2,321]

2 hours ago, crypto said:

So my best guess is the original opening of 5M1 Ron Is Hit and the original ending of 13M1 To Georgia are both unreleased and missing from the bootleg (because they just retained the edited, OST versions).

They both appear from the full scores to have been revised prior to recording, which could explain their absence from the boot. The first page of 13M1 Insert is even numbered page 5, following four pages of the original 13M1.

[BrotherSound 2,321]

5 hours ago, Jay said:

If it appeared in the movie, it's title should be in those gema sabam bmi etc sites

Unfortunately, only the OST titles appear to have been registered with GEMA.

[Jay 40,265]

Bummer!

[BrotherSound 2,321]

So, one interesting thing to note about the score of Born on the Fourth of July is the quite sparse instrumentation (by Williams standards, at least). A number of the cues use only a string orchestra. And the only other instruments he calls for in the score are a solo oboe, solo trumpet, 3 horns, tuba, harp, piano, and synthesizer.

 

This is in contrast to JFK and Nixon, which both utilize a more traditional full orchestra, sometimes even a larger-than-standard one for Nixon (eight horns, four trumpets, four trombones).

[Deacon Blues 66]

Isn't all of JFK's score just 6 cues heavily edited and tracked in other scenes? The OST technically has all the score, unedited.

[BrotherSound 2,321]

 

1 hour ago, Deacon Blues said:

Isn't all of JFK's score just 6 cues heavily edited and tracked in other scenes? The OST technically has all the score, unedited.

There is indeed a large portion of the score that consists of those ‘wild’ cues not written directly to footage and edited in (Arlington, The Conspirators, Garrison’s Obsession), but there are also other cues with slate numbers (e.g. 1M2) written to sync with the film in the usual manner, a few of which are on the OST, and most of which remain unreleased.

 

Here’s the known unreleased cues:

 

1M1 Main Title Part II
1M1 Main Title - Long Version
1M2A Theme Over Scottish Drums
1M4 Receiving the News

3M4 Oswald Effect
4M3 Bannisters Office
6M4 Effects [synthesizer]
8M1 Ruby and Warren
8M2 Under the Rifle Sights
9M6 Shaw's Exit
Reel 9 “Maryland My Maryland” [source]

11M1A The Entrance of Mr. X
12M3 Circles of Power
12M5A End Note Bar 65
12M6A Bar 55 Crossover
13M3 Bedtime T.V.
13M5 Oswald Visits Hosts
14M3 The Bedroom Scene
Arlington Insert (Dialogue Version)
Drum Loop
Theme From "J.F.K."

 

On 20/01/2022 at 9:05 AM, thx99 said:

Also, the version of the main theme featured on a 2-track CD promo, a 2-CD MCA Records promo compilation of film score and songs named "Reel Music", and the music video released at the time of the film is also not included on the boot, nor the OST.

Is the 3:25 version of ‘Born On The Fourth Of July’ just a slightly shorter edit of the 3:55 version, or are there any other differences?

[thx99 1,906]

14 hours ago, BrotherSound said:

Is the 3:25 version of ‘Born On The Fourth Of July’ just a slightly shorter edit of the 3:55 version, or are there any other differences?

 

Yes, the shorter version ends with the final chord (starting around 3:15 of both tracks) fading to silence, while the longer version continues on with the synth strike and reprise of the trumpet opening.  When time-aligned, there are some minor phasing differences from 1:58 to 2:03 and again from 3:05 until 3:17 (suggesting some micro-edits), but otherwise, the content appears to be identical.