Tom 4,610 Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 I have been listening to this piece over the course of last 4 years, and I really like it. I initially thought it was good, I now think very good. However, that weird note it hits in what is I am assuming the second measure has never set well with me. I like the Williams takes melodies to unexpected places (that eventually seem inevitable) but that moment I find jarring. Can anyone explain what is going on musically that I am reacting to? Does anyone else have a similar experience with it? Again, I love the piece. The fugal nature and badass brass is extremely good. I top-notch second-tier Williams piece. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig 1,120 Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 Could you pinpoint this note more precisely? What number note would it be if you count them from the start of the melody? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom 4,610 Posted June 7, 2020 Author Share Posted June 7, 2020 The interval in the beginning the fifth measure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romão 2,268 Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 It's a brilliant piece, only improves with repeat listens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karelm 2,888 Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 1 hour ago, Tom said: The interval in the beginning the fifth measure. I'm not sure of what exactly you are referring to but he is repeating a pattern. The opening octaves are in A which starts the theme in bar 2. The dominant of A is E and he modulates to E to repeat the phrase at bar 4 shortening the phrase to the next modulation again at the dominant of E which is B at bar 5. So far he's repeating a pattern but shortening the repeated phrase adding intensity each time because it gets chopped a bit/shortened. Perhaps what you are complaining about is the dissonance in bar 5 (beat 3) where the bass is a B pedal but the middle voice is a C causing a dissonant minor second clash as the sequence builds reaching higher and higher getting cut again and again to give huge tension before the full theme is stated. Also in bar 5, the notes aren't diatonic (in the scale) of B minor but JW is using the intervals in the melodic sequence rather than harmonizing them to reinforce the thematic material. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Ludwig 1,120 Posted June 7, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted June 7, 2020 1 hour ago, Tom said: The interval in the beginning the fifth measure. Ok, I get what you mean. The A# sounds like it shouldn't be there. If you're hearing it as out of place, it's likely because you're expecting the melody to sound a plain old A there and stay in the key of E minor, which has been going for the last bar and a half. But Williams also will often write a melody that uses only uses notes from a major or minor scale while the harmony ventures outside it (e.g., Luke's theme, Force theme, Raiders march). So I can understand where you're coming from. For me, I hear that note as derived from the down-up (or what's called a neighbour-note) figure that starts the fourth bar in your example above. And I think what makes that figure really distinctive is that the down-up motion is within a half step, or semitone. Almost every statement of the figure is within a semitone: the very first one, the one in the middle of bar 5, the one starting bar 6, the two in the middle of bar 9, and almost every statement in the B section as well (from bar 11). This use of notes outside a scale to match a semitone interval in a motive is something that is exceedingly common in music from the classical and romantic periods in particular. March of the Resistance has more of a conservative rather than more radical 19th-century feel to it, even if it is molded in Williams' own style (i.e., something more akin to, say, Dvorak than Wagner): both the melody and harmony stay in a single key for its opening 8 bars (unusual for Williams), the theme uses harmonic minor with the raised 7th degree (also unusual for Williams), and the melody is fashioned in a 4+4 structure (so common for Williams!), so it makes sense that it follows 19th-century melodic conventions as well. Montre, karelm and Falstaft 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Jay 37,042 Posted June 7, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted June 7, 2020 Why do people never give specific timestamps? Many people on this forum can't read music so don't know what "the interval in the beginning the fifth measure" even is. Chewy, toothless, Smaug The Iron and 3 others 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom 4,610 Posted June 7, 2020 Author Share Posted June 7, 2020 I did index the fifth measure to the sheet music right above, but I suppose a timestamp would work too. Ludwig, thank you for the analysis. It is the one note that sounds out of place to me, and I have yet to adjust to it. Ludwig 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheUlyssesian 2,467 Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 2 hours ago, Tom said: The interval in the beginning the fifth measure. Pardon my illiterate musical analysis as I have never taken a music class in my life of any sort. I'd say the 5th measure doesn't have the actual melody, more like an intro or build using constructs from the melody. March of the Resistance is a strange beast. I'd argue only measures 7,8,9,10 in the video represent the main melody of the march. I would shorten it to measures 7 and 8 for motivic application and even just measure 7 for reference purposes. I think the overall theme is quite a 'choose your own adventure kind of theme' in that after measure 7 and 8 above, you could go in any direction you want. There are various other sub phrases to choose from or even jump to another theme and come back. I myself when I hum the march to myself, I segue into a melodic extension of my own invention after measures 7 and 8. So I might say measures 7 to 8 represent the truest distillation of the actual melody. Anything else - make of it what you will. I hope any of that made sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom 4,610 Posted June 8, 2020 Author Share Posted June 8, 2020 Yes, that makes sense. I like the "choose your own adventure" idea. That might be why I have a harder time connecting to it compared to other JW marches--evidently, I like to be spoon-fed. It really does have a different feel from other SW marches--Williams knows how to expand a musical palate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheUlyssesian 2,467 Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 That's a great observation. It is a more slippery melody than your typical Star Wars construct which has that "inevitable" feel and which are very simple and can be simply and forcefully articulated - Williams has himself said so. Of course simple isn't dumb and complex isn't better. Usually people rely on the concert suite to get a handle on what the actual melody is because the motivic application can distort the theme in various guises. Well the trouble is, the concert suite of this theme itself distorts the melody quite a bit. It is an excessively filigreed piece with several offshoots and offramps - in a way more like a traditional concert piece rather than a simple movie concert piece that we expect. With this piece Williams went where it took him, rather than bludgeoning it into a standard concert theme presentation. In that way, I agree, it an unusual piece. I think people need to remember that for the March being a slippery theme - the Concert suite is not simply stating the theme as people expect. So basically no simple pure form of the theme exists in a way. And I'd argue cannot exist because this is a complex elusive theme that does not truly lend itself to a standard presentation. Or looking at it differently, people might not find it very attractive if it were presented in a simple basic manner. Nevertheless, the razzle dazzle of the concert suite is part of the theme's identity now and people show look to simpler application within the body of the score to truly understand the contours of the theme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabulin 3,505 Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 . artguy360 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 11,956 Posted June 10, 2020 Share Posted June 10, 2020 On 6/7/2020 at 4:26 PM, Ludwig said: This use of notes outside a scale to match a semitone interval in a motive is something that is exceedingly common in music from the classical and romantic periods in particular. Interesting. Do you have a good educational textbook reference for this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Ludwig 1,120 Posted June 10, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted June 10, 2020 7 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said: Interesting. Do you have a good educational textbook reference for this? Textbooks don't usually get into these kinds of stylistic details. I looked in several harmony and counterpoint books just now but to no avail. The music speaks better for itself. Take, for one famous example, Chopin's Prelude in A below. All the dotted figures except the last are half steps (as in March of the Resistance), and Chopin sometimes uses notes outside the scale to do that. For those who don't read music, it's always the 2nd and 3rd notes in of each phrase in the recording below. Disco Stu, Tom, Sharkissimo and 2 others 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 11,956 Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 16 hours ago, Ludwig said: Textbooks don't usually get into these kinds of stylistic details. Someone really should write a book that covers details like this that aren't mentioned in standard textbooks. It would be invaluable for self-tuition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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