Last Crusade sound specifics

[mxsch 115]

Why TLC sounds so... interesting? I've read enough criticisms for this, but I'm like it very much.

And do you think that Shawn Murphy could fixed it if he worked on it?

[Jay 37,268]

I think it was just a smaller orchestra than the ones used to record Raiders and Temple

[mxsch 115]

9 minutes ago, Jay said:

I think it was just a smaller orchestra than the ones used to record Raiders and Temple

But actually TLC still loses for TOD and RotLA. Because LSO is LSO and TOD is simply insane in terms of speed.

Btw, do anybody have information about what exactly orchestras was used for Temple, Crusade, Skull, E.T., Schindler's List and Jurassic Park with all HP scores?

Edit: forgot about sequels and Solo. 

[Bellosh 3,369]

I never really had a problem with the recording of TLC the way some people have had.

[mxsch 115]

23 minutes ago, Bellosh said:

I never really had a problem with the recording of TLC the way some people have had.

Me too. I'm also think that TLC is close second or on the same level as Raiders overall. Yes, TOD is frantic, Raiders have Mickey Mousing and insane Ark theme, but Crusade is most thematically rich, if I'm start to count themes/motifs…

Cross of Coronado

Henry Sr./Grail Quest/Family theme (according to Skull)

Holy Grail 

Scherzo

Joneses

Nazis

Grail Knight

Raiders March of course

And music of Crusade is also most heart touching of all four. 

Edir: I'm also was very surprised when this nervous part from Ah, Rats! returned with Indy escape attempt in Skull, so you technically can count it as motif overall. 

[Bellosh 3,369]

9 minutes ago, mxsch said:

Me too. I'm also think that TLC is close second or on the same level as Raiders overall. Yes, TOD is frantic, Raiders have Mickey Mousing and insane Ark theme, but Crusade is most thematically rich, if I'm start to count themes/motifs…

Cross of Coronado

Henry Sr./Grail Quest/Family theme (according to Skull)

Holy Grail 

Scherzo

Joneses

Nazis

Grail Knight

Raiders March of course

And music of Crusade is also most heart touching of all four. 

 

+ Brotherhood of the Cruciform Sword

 

Yes the complete score of The Last Crusade is one of the most adventurous, globe-trotting scores there is.

[mxsch 115]

5 minutes ago, Bellosh said:

 

+ Brotherhood of the Cruciform Sword

 

Yes the complete score of The Last Crusade is one of the most adventurous, globe-trotting scores there is.

And users rating on Filmtracks is laughable. 3.95??? Really? More than 4.10 at least 

You can check my compiled version in one place that I'm now calling Area 51 for security reasons. 

[Falstaft 2,132]

49 minutes ago, mxsch said:

Me too. I'm also think that TLC is close second or on the same level as Raiders overall. Yes, TOD is frantic, Raiders have Mickey Mousing and insane Ark theme, but Crusade is most thematically rich, if I'm start to count themes/motifs…

Cross of Coronado

Henry Sr./Grail Quest/Family theme (according to Skull)

Holy Grail 

Scherzo

Joneses

Nazis

Grail Knight

Raiders March of course

And music of Crusade is also most heart touching of all four. 

 

Don't forget Panama Hat!:

 

[Datameister 2,034]

The best way to compare the sounds of the recordings is to listen to the end credits, since they all share significant stretches of the Raiders March that are identical on paper - but certainly not on album.

 

Based on those comparisons, these are the differences I hear between it and its two predecessors:

 

• A dryer mix overall, meaning the reverb (from the original recording and/or artificially introduced) is quieter. The reverb is qualitatively different as well, though I'd have a really tough time describing the difference in words.
• Probably a smaller orchestra, as Jay said.
• The stereo field is narrow.
• In terms of EQ, the sound is not nearly as bright.
• The trumpets are mixed dead center, extremely narrow, and fairly quiet...and they have a peculiar distant sound to them. I don't know enough about mics and recording techniques to be able to give a particularly nuanced analysis, but if I were to hazard a quasi-uneducated guess, the trumpets were miked a lot closer on TOD and even closer on ROTLA. There are probably other factors I'm not aware of, including type, placement, and number of mics, and that of course applies to the entire orchestra, not just the trumpets.
• It is much harder to pick out individual voices in the more thickly orchestrated sections. Some of this probably comes from the aforementioned narrow stereo field, but even taking that into account, there's a general muddiness to the sound where a lot of instruments are just mingling in the same frequency ranges. Whatever they did with ROTLA and TOD got a lot more separation between the instruments without sacrificing the blend of the ensemble as a whole.
• In terms of performance, ROTLA has a certain wildness to its sound, especially in the trumpets. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Whatever Maurice Murphy was on during these recording sessions...well, I wouldn't want the trumpets to be on it for every orchestral recording, but I sure get a kick out of it with ROTLA. To me, TOD's performance (if not the writing!) isn't quite as over-the-top, ballsy, and energetic, but it still packs a wallop. TLC by comparison just feels a little anemic, like the orchestra's (again, especially the trumpets') heart just wasn't in it so much.
• The dynamic range feels a bit wider in the other two scores. I could be imagining or exaggerating the difference, but one spot that particularly jumps out for me is the reentry of the trumpets toward the end of the credits. In the first two scores, the preceding passage with the horns on the B theme is allowed to really build in a fun, optimistic crescendo, followed by the rather explosive return of the trumpets. In TOD, their reappearance really doesn't stand out at all for me.
• Bottom line, ROTLA sounds very Eric Tomlinson, TOD sounds very Bruce Botnick, and TLC sounds very Dan Wallin.

I think there are some objective differences in the sounds of these scores. Whether those differences are good, bad, neutral, or unnoticeable is totally subjective and will vary from listener to listener. Personally, I think TLC would still be my least favorite of the three original Indy scores if it were recorded more like its brethren...but the margin would be significantly narrower.

[mxsch 115]

7 hours ago, Falstaft said:

 

Don't forget Panama Hat!:

 

10 themes. This is like ROTJ level, even if it little bit unfair, because some disappear too fast.

By the way, can you fix in the next version of your SW themes L7 to L3 and add Ah, Rats!!! motif as misc. recurring to IJ themes? It is in the beginning of the video.

And thank you for your superb work.

 

[Arpy 4,145]

8 hours ago, Falstaft said:

 

Don't forget Panama Hat!:

 

Sorry for my musical illiteracy, but is this the motif recurring in the opening cues for the villain? 

[crumbs 14,287]

I've always considered TLC several steps beneath the first two scores purely because it's such an unpleasant recording. The muddy, flat mix suffocates the energy of the orchestra, resulting in a borderline-monaural experience. 'Anemic' is an excellent descriptor from @Datameister and sums up my general thoughts. It's especially noticeable when you've just finished a track from TOD, where the vibrant recording and performance energy is breathtaking.

 

TLC is one of the few instances where I'd fully support MM mixing the score from scratch using the multi-tracks, just to introduce better separation between instruments, also enhance the clarity of the orchestra's performance. In its current state, it's a soupy, dour affair.

[Holko 9,491]

53 minutes ago, Arpy said:

Sorry for my musical illiteracy, but is this the motif recurring in the opening cues for the villain? 

yep

[Incanus 5,713]

19 hours ago, crumbs said:

I've always considered TLC several steps beneath the first two scores purely because it's such an unpleasant recording. The muddy, flat mix suffocates the energy of the orchestra, resulting in a borderline-monaural experience. 'Anemic' is an excellent descriptor from @Datameister and sums up my general thoughts. It's especially noticeable when you've just finished a track from TOD, where the vibrant recording and performance energy is breathtaking.

 

TLC is one of the few instances where I'd fully support MM mixing the score from scratch using the multi-tracks, just to introduce better separation between instruments, also enhance the clarity of the orchestra's performance. In its current state, it's a soupy, dour affair.

Forget it crumbs, it's Damn... I mean Dan Wallin.

[Falstaft 2,132]

5 hours ago, mxsch said:

10 themes. This is like ROTJ level, even if it little bit unfair, because some disappear too fast.

By the way, can you fix in the next version of your SW themes L7 to L3 and add Ah, Rats!!! motif as misc. recurring to IJ themes? It is in the beginning of the video.

And thank you for your superb work.

 

Thanks! D'oh about the mislabeling of the L3-37 theme from Solo, I'll fix that right away.

 

I need to get around to adding a few more little returning musical moments across the Indy series. There's the "Ah Rats" thing you mentioned in KOTCS, and a few other bits & pieces, like the recurrence of some "Basket Chase" music in TOD. And I certainly will add the bouncy Indy's First Adventure motif, which IIRC spans 3 immediately adjacent cues. Which gets us to 11!

 

I actually don't mind the "anemic" quality of TLC's recording that much: it may not sparkle like ROTLA or TOD, but it has a warmth and solidity to it that suits the tone of score nicely.

[Jay 37,268]

True story: The character's name is L3-37 because l337 is haxxor slang for elite (l337 = leet = elite)

[Datameister 2,034]

6 hours ago, crumbs said:

I've always considered TLC several steps beneath the first two scores purely because it's such an unpleasant recording. The muddy, flat mix suffocates the energy of the orchestra, resulting in a borderline-monaural experience. 'Anemic' is an excellent descriptor from @Datameister and sums up my general thoughts. It's especially noticeable when you've just finished a track from TOD, where the vibrant recording and performance energy is breathtaking.

 

TLC is one of the few instances where I'd fully support MM mixing the score from scratch using the multi-tracks, just to introduce better separation between instruments, also enhance the clarity of the orchestra's performance. In its current state, it's a soupy, dour affair.

 

Very well said. It's definitely most noticeable when you're jumping between scores.

 

The FSM release of TWOK is a huge improvement over the OST in terms of sound quality, and that was over a decade ago now (how is that possible?! ), so I wouldn't be surprised if similar improvements would be possible with TLC in the right hands.

 

The funny thing is that Dan apparently chose these recording methods very intentionally because he liked the sound better than the alternatives, and then of course other industry professionals chose to work with him countless times over his long and successful career. So obviously our preferences are not shared by everyone.

 

Does Stanley and Iris have a similar sound? It's the only other Williams/Wallin collaboration, right? I'm not familiar with it.

[Jay 37,268]

Stanley & Iris sounds wonderful, but it's also a much smaller and more intimate score.

 

Wallin also did The Accidental Tourist and The River, which also sound fine.

 

Great post comparing the raiders march differences, I really enjoyed reading it.  Opened my eyes to explaining the difference I hear in IJ3 compared to the first two.

 

I do wonder if a total remix from the original multi-track would yield the results we want, or if the microphone placement is the biggest culprit

[Holko 9,491]

The Cowboys, too, and that sounds fantastic for its age.

[Jay 37,268]

That's one of the biggest differences in sound quality I can remember, going from the old Varese CD to the MM Deluxe Edition.  Really made the score come alive!

[Datameister 2,034]

Oh wow, I didn't realize there was a good handful that Wallin did. Of those, The Cowboys is the only one I'm familiar with, but it sounds pretty good to me, especially for the early 70s. Then again, I don't have an LSO recording of the same material for comparison.

[Manakin Skywalker 4,889]

On 7/12/2020 at 6:18 PM, mxsch said:

But actually TLC still loses for TOD and RotLA. Because LSO is LSO and TOD is simply insane in terms of speed.

Btw, do anybody have information about what exactly orchestras was used for Temple, Crusade, Skull, E.T., Schindler's List and Jurassic Park with all HP scores?

Edit: forgot about sequels and Solo. 

 

RotLA uses the London Symphony Orchestra. TOD, TLC and KotCS use the Hollywood Studio Symphony, although I believe TLC uses a slightly smaller configuration.

 

-edited-

Harry Potter 1(?), 2, 4, 7 & 8 use the London Symphony Orchestra. 5 & 6 use the London Philharmonic Orchestra. As for POA, we don't know.

 

Jurassic Park uses the Hollywood Studio Symphony.

[Faleel 5,326]

5 minutes ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

 

RotLA uses the London Symphony Orchestra. TOD, TLC and KotCS use the Hollywood Studio Symphony, although I believe TLC uses a slightly smaller configuration.

 

All 8 of the Harry Potter films use the London Symphony Orchestra.

 

Jurassic Park, I'm not that familiar with, so I'm not positive. I think it's the LSO, but don't quote me on that.

JP is also LA.

 

Solo uses a contracted London Orchestra

[mxsch 115]

10 minutes ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

 

RotLA and TOD use the London Symphony Orchestra. TLC and KotCS use the Hollywood Studio Symphony (basically the same configuration as the Star Wars sequel trilogy).

 

All 8 of the Harry Potter films use the London Symphony Orchestra.

 

Jurassic Park, I'm not that familiar with, so I'm not positive. I think it's the LSO, but don't quote me on that.

Very cool, thanks, this info is nowhere to be found. I'm think that I'm need to edit LSO recording Wikipedia list. I meant only JW HP, but this is even cooler.

I've read that all Indy sequels were recorded in the one same stage, is it true? And there is no info on E.T., List?

And I'm know that this is a very late question, but don't you mind that I'm using your SW edits for my compilations? Your AOTC and ROTS are backbone of mine versions. Absolutely superior work, by the way.

[Faleel 5,326]

JW's Solo theme was recorded at Royce Hall right?

 

The HPSS teaser sounds like a LA recording to me.

 

 

[Edmilson 7,372]

10 minutes ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

All 8 of the Harry Potter films use the London Symphony Orchestra.

 

 

As far as I know, only Chamber of Secrets, Goblet of Fire and the two Deathly Hallows were recorded with the LSO. Don't know why Williams didn't use them for HPPS and POA.

[Manakin Skywalker 4,889]

20 minutes ago, The River (Fal) said:

The HPSS teaser sounds like a LA recording to me.

 

It is. Both teaser cues were recorded by the Hollywood Studio Symphony (small configuration).

 

18 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

As far as I know, only Chamber of Secrets, Goblet of Fire and the two Deathly Hallows were recorded with the LSO. Don't know why Williams didn't use them for HPPS and POA.

 

Maurice Murphy was principal trumpet on HPSS, so it's safe to assume the LSO was used.

[Faleel 5,326]

wasn't the Hoopers recorded with the Chamber Orchestra?

[Manakin Skywalker 4,889]

16 minutes ago, mxsch said:

And there is no info on E.T., List?

And I'm know that this is a very late question, but don't you mind that I'm using your SW edits for my compilations?

 

Sure go ahead! 

 

And as for ET and Schindler's, I can't find any information on the orchestra used, but they were both recorded in LA. Based on the sound I think ET was probably performed by the HSS, but I'm not positive about Schindler's.

[Faleel 5,326]

Both TOD and SS had music recorded by the Boston Pops/in Boston IIRC

[mxsch 115]

3 minutes ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

 

Sure go ahead! 

 

And as for ET and Schindler's, I can't find any information on the orchestra used, but they were both recorded in LA. Based on the sound I think ET was probably performed by the HSS, but I'm not positive about Schindler's.

Heh, I'm remember how I have written you for possibilty of download links, but I've found another way around. Your ROTS version without tracked music from Squid is very cool.

I wanted download links because I'm still not sure that the audio that I've got is not compressed.

[Manakin Skywalker 4,889]

11 minutes ago, The River (Fal) said:

wasn't the Hoopers recorded with the Chamber Orchestra?

 

After doing some cross referencing for various players, I'm now positive that Hooper's Potter scores were recorded by the London Philharmonic Orchestra.

 

Using the same process, it appears that POA was likely recorded by the London Sinfonietta.

 

[Fabulin 3,506]

.

[mxsch 115]

1 minute ago, Fabulin said:

 

 

Is there any chart showing just the orchestra, studio, mixing etc. data for each of Williams' scores?

That can be very great!

[Faleel 5,326]

2 minutes ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

 

After doing some cross referencing for various players, I'm now positive that Hooper's Potter scores were recorded by the London Philharmonic Orchestra.

 

http://www.filmmusicmag.com/?p=377

[Manakin Skywalker 4,889]

2 minutes ago, The River (Fal) said:

http://www.filmmusicmag.com/?p=377

 

That would reaffirm that the LPO recorded the score.

[Edmilson 7,372]

7 minutes ago, Fabulin said:

Is there any chart showing just the orchestra, studio, mixing etc. data for each of Williams' scores?

 

That'd make a fascinating chart. I'd do it myself if I had time.

 

It's an easy chart to make, just use the info available on the booklets of all Williams expansions.

[Fabulin 3,506]

.

[Jurassic Shark 12,010]

9 minutes ago, Fabulin said:

I would do that myself, but the only Williams release I own are the 3 OT SE CDs.

 

Filmtracks lists most of this info in the reviews.

[Remco 685]

3 hours ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

 

After doing some cross referencing for various players, I'm now positive that Hooper's Potter scores were recorded by the London Philharmonic Orchestra.

 

Using the same process, it appears that POA was likely recorded by the London Sinfonietta.

 

HPSS and POA may have many of the same players, but it’s certainly not the LSO. I guess just like the LA studio orchestra has players from the LA Phil in them.

 

As for the London Sinfonietta – It’s important to note that these are the baroque players that were contracted for that portion of the score, this is not the symphony orchestra that was used.

[Marian Schedenig 8,159]

3 hours ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

Maurice Murphy was principal trumpet on HPSS, so it's safe to assume the LSO was used.

 

They're not credited at least, and it's the first time I've seen anyone claim that the LSO proper has recorded that score (when discussions used to rather go "why didn't Williams use the LSO for HPPS when they did HPCOS?"). I expect it's likely it was recorded with a contract orchestra largely drafted from the LSO (as has been the assumption for years), but surely if they'd actually hired the "standard" LSO they would have gotten credit? For contractual reasons if nothing else?

[Remco 685]

It’s funny how the HP series is one of the LSO’s flagship series when it comes to their involvement in film music, yet John Williams conducted the orchestra 0 times for it!

[Marian Schedenig 8,159]

Just now, Remco said:

It’s funny how the HP series is one of the LSO’s flagship series when it comes to their involvement in film music, yet John Williams conducted the orchestra 0 times for it!

 

[E-Wan 65]

24 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

 

They're not credited at least, and it's the first time I've seen anyone claim that the LSO proper has recorded that score (when discussions used to rather go "why didn't Williams use the LSO for HPPS when they did HPCOS?"). I expect it's likely it was recorded with a contract orchestra largely drafted from the LSO (as has been the assumption for years), but surely if they'd actually hired the "standard" LSO they would have gotten credit? For contractual reasons if nothing else?

 

According the booklets in Harry Potter 7CD box set the only Harry Potter score using already established symphony orchestra is Harry Potter ant the Chamber of Secrets. It was the London Symphony Orchestra. The remaining two scores have used musicians from various UK and US orchestras contracted by Isobel Griffiths.

 

See these pages:

HPPS: 16 & 35

HPCOS: 9 & 23

HPPOA: 7 & 23

[ymenard 54]

I always felt that the Last Crusade orchestration make it feel a little too artificial, mostly with all the doublings that feel electronic (eve if they are just dry and sharp higher notes from instruments).  The same type of recording appears on The Phantom Menace, but he had the large orchestra to not hide all of this.

[Manakin Skywalker 4,889]

1 hour ago, Marian Schedenig said:

 

They're not credited at least, and it's the first time I've seen anyone claim that the LSO proper has recorded that score (when discussions used to rather go "why didn't Williams use the LSO for HPPS when they did HPCOS?"). I expect it's likely it was recorded with a contract orchestra largely drafted from the LSO (as has been the assumption for years), but surely if they'd actually hired the "standard" LSO they would have gotten credit? For contractual reasons if nothing else?

 

Yes, that's what I was thinking. Most of the members were likely from the LSO, but it might not have been the LSO "proper". It's the same situation for the Star Wars sequel trilogy; the vast majority of the members are with the Hollywood Studio Symphony, but because a few London musicians were contracted, they aren't credited as the HSS. I would imagine it's a similar case for the latter Indiana Jones films.

 

1 hour ago, Remco said:

As for the London Sinfonietta – It’s important to note that these are the baroque players that were contracted for that portion of the score, this is not the symphony orchestra that was used.

 

Ahhh... I hadn't considered that. Those are the only members I could find credited for POA; I hadn't heard of the LS before, so I assumed they were a larger orchestra.

[Marian Schedenig 8,159]

16 minutes ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

Yes, that's what I was thinking. Most of the members were likely from the LSO, but it might not have been the LSO "proper". It's the same situation for the Star Wars sequel trilogy; the vast majority of the members are with the Hollywood Studio Symphony, but because a few London musicians were contracted, they aren't credited as the HSS. I would imagine it's a similar case for the latter Indiana Jones films.

 

Isn't the Hollywood Studio Symphony just an umbrella term for any orchestra assembled from the standard pool of Hollywood contract players? I've always assumed that they have a much larger number of members than you'll have in any single lineup (even if e.g. Don Williams does appear on virtually every recording).

[Manakin Skywalker 4,889]

28 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

Isn't the Hollywood Studio Symphony just an umbrella term for any orchestra assembled from the standard pool of Hollywood contract players? I've always assumed that they have a much larger number of members than you'll have in any single lineup (even if e.g. Don Williams does appear on virtually every recording).

 

Essentially yes. Although they do have a very large collection of collaborative members, I typically notice a similar roster of musicians from score to score.

 

Why they sometimes call it the Hollywood Studio Symphony, and why they sometimes don't, I have no idea. Although it's mostly the same members working on the SW sequels, they are usually just referred to as an "LA-based orchestra". What makes the difference is unclear to me.

[Datameister 2,034]

2 hours ago, ymenard said:

I always felt that the Last Crusade orchestration make it feel a little too artificial, mostly with all the doublings that feel electronic (eve if they are just dry and sharp higher notes from instruments).  The same type of recording appears on The Phantom Menace, but he had the large orchestra to not hide all of this.

 

There's certainly a much greater presence of electronics than in ROTLA (very minimal) or TOD (can't think of any at all). Gives a different flavor. Compositionally he went in a different direction overall. That was part of my reasoning for recommending direct comparisons just with the Raiders March - good way to isolate just the differences in performance and recording, as opposed to composition and orchestration.

[Erik Woods 555]

The reason TLC sounds so bad is because of one man... Dan Wallin.

He's the only engineer I know of that can take 90 piece orchestra and make them sound like a high school band, and that's all because of the way he mixes his scores.

 

He hard pans strings left and right and gives everything else the centre of the sound field, which opens up the strings but creates a messy, muddled sound for the rest.  Just listen to other Wallin big scale scores like Might Morphin Power Rangers, and almost every Giacchino up to ST: Into Darkness.

Having said that, Wallin did make a change in his mixing style for Joel McNeely on Iron Will.  That score sounds wide, detailed, expansive and lush.  Why?  It's mixed in a more traditional way. Go ahead... listen to it.  You'd never know it was a Wallin recording unless you saw the credits.

There really isn't much any mastering engineer can do to fix a Wallin mix unless they some how get multi-track masters and completely change the stereo field. 

BTW, Shawn Murphy remixed The Last Crusade for the Concord release.  There is a noticeable difference in clarity but the original sound stage was kept in tacked.  AND there is no one that is going to attempt to change instrument placement without approvals from the composer AND the original mixer.

 

-Erik-

 

BTW, I have four pre-Wallin mixes of Steve Smith's original recording and mix of Chris Tilton's Mercenaries.  If anyone has heard Giacchino's MOH and SWON scores knows the Steve Smith sound.  It's very Eric Tomlinson.  Well, Wallin remixed Smith's brilliant recording to "Wallin specifications". The score as heard on album sound dead compared to what Smith did.