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Last Crusade sound specifics


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The best way to compare the sounds of the recordings is to listen to the end credits, since they all share significant stretches of the Raiders March that are identical on paper - but certainly not on

Don't forget Panama Hat!:  

They're not credited at least, and it's the first time I've seen anyone claim that the LSO proper has recorded that score (when discussions used to rather go "why didn't Williams use the LSO for HPPS

9 minutes ago, Jay said:

I think it was just a smaller orchestra than the ones used to record Raiders and Temple

But actually TLC still loses for TOD and RotLA. Because LSO is LSO and TOD is simply insane in terms of speed.

Btw, do anybody have information about what exactly orchestras was used for Temple, Crusade, Skull, E.T., Schindler's List and Jurassic Park with all HP scores?

Edit: forgot about sequels and Solo. 

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23 minutes ago, Bellosh said:

I never really had a problem with the recording of TLC the way some people have had.

Me too. I'm also think that TLC is close second or on the same level as Raiders overall. Yes, TOD is frantic, Raiders have Mickey Mousing and insane Ark theme, but Crusade is most thematically rich, if I'm start to count themes/motifs…

Cross of Coronado

Henry Sr./Grail Quest/Family theme (according to Skull)

Holy Grail 

Scherzo

Joneses

Nazis

Grail Knight

Raiders March of course

And music of Crusade is also most heart touching of all four. 

Edir: I'm also was very surprised when this nervous part from Ah, Rats! returned with Indy escape attempt in Skull, so you technically can count it as motif overall. 

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9 minutes ago, mxsch said:

Me too. I'm also think that TLC is close second or on the same level as Raiders overall. Yes, TOD is frantic, Raiders have Mickey Mousing and insane Ark theme, but Crusade is most thematically rich, if I'm start to count themes/motifs…

Cross of Coronado

Henry Sr./Grail Quest/Family theme (according to Skull)

Holy Grail 

Scherzo

Joneses

Nazis

Grail Knight

Raiders March of course

And music of Crusade is also most heart touching of all four. 

 

+ Brotherhood of the Cruciform Sword

 

Yes the complete score of The Last Crusade is one of the most adventurous, globe-trotting scores there is.

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5 minutes ago, Bellosh said:

 

+ Brotherhood of the Cruciform Sword

 

Yes the complete score of The Last Crusade is one of the most adventurous, globe-trotting scores there is.

And users rating on Filmtracks is laughable. 3.95??? Really? More than 4.10 at least 

You can check my compiled version in one place that I'm now calling Area 51 for security reasons. 

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7 hours ago, Falstaft said:

 

Don't forget Panama Hat!:

 

22 Panama.png

10 themes. This is like ROTJ level, even if it little bit unfair, because some disappear too fast.

By the way, can you fix in the next version of your SW themes L7 to L3 and add Ah, Rats!!! motif as misc. recurring to IJ themes? It is in the beginning of the video.

And thank you for your superb work.

 

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I've always considered TLC several steps beneath the first two scores purely because it's such an unpleasant recording. The muddy, flat mix suffocates the energy of the orchestra, resulting in a borderline-monaural experience. 'Anemic' is an excellent descriptor from @Datameister and sums up my general thoughts. It's especially noticeable when you've just finished a track from TOD, where the vibrant recording and performance energy is breathtaking.

 

TLC is one of the few instances where I'd fully support MM mixing the score from scratch using the multi-tracks, just to introduce better separation between instruments, also enhance the clarity of the orchestra's performance. In its current state, it's a soupy, dour affair.

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19 hours ago, crumbs said:

I've always considered TLC several steps beneath the first two scores purely because it's such an unpleasant recording. The muddy, flat mix suffocates the energy of the orchestra, resulting in a borderline-monaural experience. 'Anemic' is an excellent descriptor from @Datameister and sums up my general thoughts. It's especially noticeable when you've just finished a track from TOD, where the vibrant recording and performance energy is breathtaking.

 

TLC is one of the few instances where I'd fully support MM mixing the score from scratch using the multi-tracks, just to introduce better separation between instruments, also enhance the clarity of the orchestra's performance. In its current state, it's a soupy, dour affair.

Forget it crumbs, it's Damn... I mean Dan Wallin.

Forget it, Jake. It's Chinatown.

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5 hours ago, mxsch said:

10 themes. This is like ROTJ level, even if it little bit unfair, because some disappear too fast.

By the way, can you fix in the next version of your SW themes L7 to L3 and add Ah, Rats!!! motif as misc. recurring to IJ themes? It is in the beginning of the video.

And thank you for your superb work.

 

Thanks! D'oh about the mislabeling of the L3-37 theme from Solo, I'll fix that right away.

 

I need to get around to adding a few more little returning musical moments across the Indy series. There's the "Ah Rats" thing you mentioned in KOTCS, and a few other bits & pieces, like the recurrence of some "Basket Chase" music in TOD. And I certainly will add the bouncy Indy's First Adventure motif, which IIRC spans 3 immediately adjacent cues. Which gets us to 11!

 

I actually don't mind the "anemic" quality of TLC's recording that much: it may not sparkle like ROTLA or TOD, but it has a warmth and solidity to it that suits the tone of score nicely.

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6 hours ago, crumbs said:

I've always considered TLC several steps beneath the first two scores purely because it's such an unpleasant recording. The muddy, flat mix suffocates the energy of the orchestra, resulting in a borderline-monaural experience. 'Anemic' is an excellent descriptor from @Datameister and sums up my general thoughts. It's especially noticeable when you've just finished a track from TOD, where the vibrant recording and performance energy is breathtaking.

 

TLC is one of the few instances where I'd fully support MM mixing the score from scratch using the multi-tracks, just to introduce better separation between instruments, also enhance the clarity of the orchestra's performance. In its current state, it's a soupy, dour affair.

 

Very well said. It's definitely most noticeable when you're jumping between scores.

 

The FSM release of TWOK is a huge improvement over the OST in terms of sound quality, and that was over a decade ago now (how is that possible?! :eh:), so I wouldn't be surprised if similar improvements would be possible with TLC in the right hands.

 

The funny thing is that Dan apparently chose these recording methods very intentionally because he liked the sound better than the alternatives, and then of course other industry professionals chose to work with him countless times over his long and successful career. So obviously our preferences are not shared by everyone.

 

Does Stanley and Iris have a similar sound? It's the only other Williams/Wallin collaboration, right? I'm not familiar with it.

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Stanley & Iris sounds wonderful, but it's also a much smaller and more intimate score.

 

Wallin also did The Accidental Tourist and The River, which also sound fine.

 

Great post comparing the raiders march differences, I really enjoyed reading it.  Opened my eyes to explaining the difference I hear in IJ3 compared to the first two.

 

I do wonder if a total remix from the original multi-track would yield the results we want, or if the microphone placement is the biggest culprit

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That's one of the biggest differences in sound quality I can remember, going from the old Varese CD to the MM Deluxe Edition.  Really made the score come alive!

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Oh wow, I didn't realize there was a good handful that Wallin did. Of those, The Cowboys is the only one I'm familiar with, but it sounds pretty good to me, especially for the early 70s. Then again, I don't have an LSO recording of the same material for comparison.

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On 7/12/2020 at 6:18 PM, mxsch said:

But actually TLC still loses for TOD and RotLA. Because LSO is LSO and TOD is simply insane in terms of speed.

Btw, do anybody have information about what exactly orchestras was used for Temple, Crusade, Skull, E.T., Schindler's List and Jurassic Park with all HP scores?

Edit: forgot about sequels and Solo. 

 

RotLA uses the London Symphony Orchestra. TOD, TLC and KotCS use the Hollywood Studio Symphony, although I believe TLC uses a slightly smaller configuration.

 

-edited-

Harry Potter 1(?), 2, 4, 7 & 8 use the London Symphony Orchestra. 5 & 6 use the London Philharmonic Orchestra. As for POA, we don't know.

 

Jurassic Park uses the Hollywood Studio Symphony.

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5 minutes ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

 

RotLA uses the London Symphony Orchestra. TOD, TLC and KotCS use the Hollywood Studio Symphony, although I believe TLC uses a slightly smaller configuration.

 

All 8 of the Harry Potter films use the London Symphony Orchestra.

 

Jurassic Park, I'm not that familiar with, so I'm not positive. I think it's the LSO, but don't quote me on that.

JP is also LA.

 

Solo uses a contracted London Orchestra

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10 minutes ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

 

RotLA and TOD use the London Symphony Orchestra. TLC and KotCS use the Hollywood Studio Symphony (basically the same configuration as the Star Wars sequel trilogy).

 

All 8 of the Harry Potter films use the London Symphony Orchestra.

 

Jurassic Park, I'm not that familiar with, so I'm not positive. I think it's the LSO, but don't quote me on that.

Very cool, thanks, this info is nowhere to be found. I'm think that I'm need to edit LSO recording Wikipedia list. I meant only JW HP, but this is even cooler.

I've read that all Indy sequels were recorded in the one same stage, is it true? And there is no info on E.T., List?

And I'm know that this is a very late question, but don't you mind that I'm using your SW edits for my compilations? Your AOTC and ROTS are backbone of mine versions. Absolutely superior work, by the way.

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10 minutes ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

All 8 of the Harry Potter films use the London Symphony Orchestra.

 

 

As far as I know, only Chamber of Secrets, Goblet of Fire and the two Deathly Hallows were recorded with the LSO. Don't know why Williams didn't use them for HPPS and POA.

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20 minutes ago, The River (Fal) said:

The HPSS teaser sounds like a LA recording to me.

 

It is. Both teaser cues were recorded by the Hollywood Studio Symphony (small configuration).

 

18 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

As far as I know, only Chamber of Secrets, Goblet of Fire and the two Deathly Hallows were recorded with the LSO. Don't know why Williams didn't use them for HPPS and POA.

 

Maurice Murphy was principal trumpet on HPSS, so it's safe to assume the LSO was used.

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16 minutes ago, mxsch said:

And there is no info on E.T., List?

And I'm know that this is a very late question, but don't you mind that I'm using your SW edits for my compilations?

 

Sure go ahead! 

 

And as for ET and Schindler's, I can't find any information on the orchestra used, but they were both recorded in LA. Based on the sound I think ET was probably performed by the HSS, but I'm not positive about Schindler's.

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3 minutes ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

 

Sure go ahead! 

 

And as for ET and Schindler's, I can't find any information on the orchestra used, but they were both recorded in LA. Based on the sound I think ET was probably performed by the HSS, but I'm not positive about Schindler's.

Heh, I'm remember how I have written you for possibilty of download links, but I've found another way around. Your ROTS version without tracked music from Squid is very cool.

I wanted download links because I'm still not sure that the audio that I've got is not compressed.

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11 minutes ago, The River (Fal) said:

wasn't the Hoopers recorded with the Chamber Orchestra?

 

After doing some cross referencing for various players, I'm now positive that Hooper's Potter scores were recorded by the London Philharmonic Orchestra.

 

Using the same process, it appears that POA was likely recorded by the London Sinfonietta.

 

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7 minutes ago, Fabulin said:

Is there any chart showing just the orchestra, studio, mixing etc. data for each of Williams' scores?

 

That'd make a fascinating chart. I'd do it myself if I had time.

 

It's an easy chart to make, just use the info available on the booklets of all Williams expansions.

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3 hours ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

 

After doing some cross referencing for various players, I'm now positive that Hooper's Potter scores were recorded by the London Philharmonic Orchestra.

 

Using the same process, it appears that POA was likely recorded by the London Sinfonietta.

 


HPSS and POA may have many of the same players, but it’s certainly not the LSO. I guess just like the LA studio orchestra has players from the LA Phil in them.

 

As for the London Sinfonietta – It’s important to note that these are the baroque players that were contracted for that portion of the score, this is not the symphony orchestra that was used.

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3 hours ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

Maurice Murphy was principal trumpet on HPSS, so it's safe to assume the LSO was used.

 

They're not credited at least, and it's the first time I've seen anyone claim that the LSO proper has recorded that score (when discussions used to rather go "why didn't Williams use the LSO for HPPS when they did HPCOS?"). I expect it's likely it was recorded with a contract orchestra largely drafted from the LSO (as has been the assumption for years), but surely if they'd actually hired the "standard" LSO they would have gotten credit? For contractual reasons if nothing else?

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24 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

 

They're not credited at least, and it's the first time I've seen anyone claim that the LSO proper has recorded that score (when discussions used to rather go "why didn't Williams use the LSO for HPPS when they did HPCOS?"). I expect it's likely it was recorded with a contract orchestra largely drafted from the LSO (as has been the assumption for years), but surely if they'd actually hired the "standard" LSO they would have gotten credit? For contractual reasons if nothing else?

 

According the booklets in Harry Potter 7CD box set the only Harry Potter score using already established symphony orchestra is Harry Potter ant the Chamber of Secrets. It was the London Symphony Orchestra. The remaining two scores have used musicians from various UK and US orchestras contracted by Isobel Griffiths.

 

See these pages:

HPPS: 16 & 35

HPCOS: 9 & 23

HPPOA: 7 & 23

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I always felt that the Last Crusade orchestration make it feel a little too artificial, mostly with all the doublings that feel electronic (eve if they are just dry and sharp higher notes from instruments).  The same type of recording appears on The Phantom Menace, but he had the large orchestra to not hide all of this.

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1 hour ago, Marian Schedenig said:

 

They're not credited at least, and it's the first time I've seen anyone claim that the LSO proper has recorded that score (when discussions used to rather go "why didn't Williams use the LSO for HPPS when they did HPCOS?"). I expect it's likely it was recorded with a contract orchestra largely drafted from the LSO (as has been the assumption for years), but surely if they'd actually hired the "standard" LSO they would have gotten credit? For contractual reasons if nothing else?

 

Yes, that's what I was thinking. Most of the members were likely from the LSO, but it might not have been the LSO "proper". It's the same situation for the Star Wars sequel trilogy; the vast majority of the members are with the Hollywood Studio Symphony, but because a few London musicians were contracted, they aren't credited as the HSS. I would imagine it's a similar case for the latter Indiana Jones films.

 

1 hour ago, Remco said:

As for the London Sinfonietta – It’s important to note that these are the baroque players that were contracted for that portion of the score, this is not the symphony orchestra that was used.

 

Ahhh... I hadn't considered that. Those are the only members I could find credited for POA; I hadn't heard of the LS before, so I assumed they were a larger orchestra.

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16 minutes ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

Yes, that's what I was thinking. Most of the members were likely from the LSO, but it might not have been the LSO "proper". It's the same situation for the Star Wars sequel trilogy; the vast majority of the members are with the Hollywood Studio Symphony, but because a few London musicians were contracted, they aren't credited as the HSS. I would imagine it's a similar case for the latter Indiana Jones films.

 

Isn't the Hollywood Studio Symphony just an umbrella term for any orchestra assembled from the standard pool of Hollywood contract players? I've always assumed that they have a much larger number of members than you'll have in any single lineup (even if e.g. Don Williams does appear on virtually every recording).

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28 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

Isn't the Hollywood Studio Symphony just an umbrella term for any orchestra assembled from the standard pool of Hollywood contract players? I've always assumed that they have a much larger number of members than you'll have in any single lineup (even if e.g. Don Williams does appear on virtually every recording).

 

Essentially yes. Although they do have a very large collection of collaborative members, I typically notice a similar roster of musicians from score to score.

 

Why they sometimes call it the Hollywood Studio Symphony, and why they sometimes don't, I have no idea. Although it's mostly the same members working on the SW sequels, they are usually just referred to as an "LA-based orchestra". What makes the difference is unclear to me.

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2 hours ago, ymenard said:

I always felt that the Last Crusade orchestration make it feel a little too artificial, mostly with all the doublings that feel electronic (eve if they are just dry and sharp higher notes from instruments).  The same type of recording appears on The Phantom Menace, but he had the large orchestra to not hide all of this.

 

There's certainly a much greater presence of electronics than in ROTLA (very minimal) or TOD (can't think of any at all). Gives a different flavor. Compositionally he went in a different direction overall. That was part of my reasoning for recommending direct comparisons just with the Raiders March - good way to isolate just the differences in performance and recording, as opposed to composition and orchestration.

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The reason TLC sounds so bad is because of one man... Dan Wallin.

He's the only engineer I know of that can take 90 piece orchestra and make them sound like a high school band, and that's all because of the way he mixes his scores.

 

He hard pans strings left and right and gives everything else the centre of the sound field, which opens up the strings but creates a messy, muddled sound for the rest.  Just listen to other Wallin big scale scores like Might Morphin Power Rangers, and almost every Giacchino up to ST: Into Darkness.

Having said that, Wallin did make a change in his mixing style for Joel McNeely on Iron Will.  That score sounds wide, detailed, expansive and lush.  Why?  It's mixed in a more traditional way. Go ahead... listen to it.  You'd never know it was a Wallin recording unless you saw the credits.

There really isn't much any mastering engineer can do to fix a Wallin mix unless they some how get multi-track masters and completely change the stereo field. 

BTW, Shawn Murphy remixed The Last Crusade for the Concord release.  There is a noticeable difference in clarity but the original sound stage was kept in tacked.  AND there is no one that is going to attempt to change instrument placement without approvals from the composer AND the original mixer.

 

-Erik-

 

BTW, I have four pre-Wallin mixes of Steve Smith's original recording and mix of Chris Tilton's Mercenaries.  If anyone has heard Giacchino's MOH and SWON scores knows the Steve Smith sound.  It's very Eric Tomlinson.  Well, Wallin remixed Smith's brilliant recording to "Wallin specifications". The score as heard on album sound dead compared to what Smith did.  

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