Popular Post TownerFan 4,983 Posted July 21, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted July 21, 2020 Very interesting. She talks also about working with JW (around 36:00) and what an orchestrator does for him. From around 45:00 to 47:00 she talks about arranging source cues for Home Alone and Schindler's List. Falstaft, Fabulin, 12-Mile Reef and 12 others 13 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pawel P. 738 Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 Conrad Pope made a similar point about the orchestration for John that he is more of a copyist than an orchestrator. Hopefully this will eventually slay the claims I have sometimes read about how important orchestrators are to John (and were to Jerry). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,066 Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 Of course they're important. One needs good and efficient copyists when writing with pen and paper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pawel P. 738 Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 Yes, they're but my point is that in the case of John (and Jerry), their (orchestrators) influence on music is sometimes overestimated. Jurassic Shark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remco 685 Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 So true. For instance, I remember a thread discussing everybody’s favorite orchestrator for JW which was just so wrong on many levels. WilliamsStarShip2282 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrbellamy 6,281 Posted July 22, 2020 Share Posted July 22, 2020 Here? That had to have been awhile ago...or a shitpost since it’s been a meme here for years that Williams can’t orchestrate. That said I do still see that misconception floated around the interwebs by dilettantes so it’s always good to see the truth reiterated in these interviews. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remco 685 Posted July 22, 2020 Share Posted July 22, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crocodile 8,006 Posted July 22, 2020 Share Posted July 22, 2020 Some really good stuff in this. Thanks! Karol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TownerFan 4,983 Posted July 22, 2020 Author Share Posted July 22, 2020 14 hours ago, mrbellamy said: Here? That had to have been awhile ago...or a shitpost since it’s been a meme here for years that Williams can’t orchestrate. That said I do still see that misconception floated around the interwebs by dilettantes so it’s always good to see the truth reiterated in these interviews. The problem of talking on this specific subject (i.e. what orchestrators do) is that people make assumptions based on scattered information they heard or read somewhere and suddenly pass them as undeniable truths, without actually knowing anything about how these things actually work. What an orchestrator does varies greatly from case to case. There isn't a rulebook about these things. Of course there are many stories about composers whistling stuff to arrangers, or scribbling a lead sheet and then leaving it all to their collaborators, but again a lot of that is usually stuff that's bloated out of proportion. In the case of JW, I think Morley explains it very well and precisely in this video, right to the point of what is left to the orchestrator to figure out. The definition of the work being "score preparation" and not "orchestration" is probably the best summation you can get. She also went to explain the difference when JW asked her to actually arrange stuff (i.e. the source cues in Schindler's List and the carols in Home Alone 1 and 2). Really, there is no hidden mystery or closely guarded secret about what orchestrators do for JW. Falstaft 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remco 685 Posted July 22, 2020 Share Posted July 22, 2020 Exactly @TownerFan. But still, not everyone is well informed and you’ll still hear somebody say every now and then, ‘Williams relies on orchestrators’, or even ‘Williams doesn’t write his own music’. I guess it happens when you’re as good as he is. It’s also interesting to note that the assignment of woodwinds in tuttis is the single thing that orchestrators usually mention as being up to their discretion. Falstaft 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Manakin Skywalker 4,891 Posted July 22, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted July 22, 2020 Everybody knows that Bill Ross writes all of John's music for him. Jurassic Shark, Remco and Edmilson 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 On 7/22/2020 at 11:03 AM, TownerFan said: The problem of talking on this specific subject (i.e. what orchestrators do) is that people make assumptions based on scattered information they heard or read somewhere and suddenly pass them as undeniable truths, without actually knowing anything about how these things actually work. What an orchestrator does varies greatly from case to case. There isn't a rulebook about these things. Of course there are many stories about composers whistling stuff to arrangers, or scribbling a lead sheet and then leaving it all to their collaborators, but again a lot of that is usually stuff that's bloated out of proportion. In the case of JW, I think Morley explains it very well and precisely in this video, right to the point of what is left to the orchestrator to figure out. The definition of the work being "score preparation" and not "orchestration" is probably the best summation you can get. She also went to explain the difference when JW asked her to actually arrange stuff (i.e. the source cues in Schindler's List and the carols in Home Alone 1 and 2). Really, there is no hidden mystery or closely guarded secret about what orchestrators do for JW. My question is why, especially in the last 10 years, sometimes a project has credited orchestrators (e.g., William Ross on TFA and TROS) and sometimes there is none. From my understanding, when there is no credited orchestrator, Williams hands his detailed short scores directly to JKMS to expand out into the parts and conductor's score, but when we are told that the credited orchestrators aren't doing anything more complicated than what a score preparer does, why sometimes use them and sometimes not? How is what Mark Graham and his team at JKMS do on these projects functionally different from what a credited orchestrator does? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post TownerFan 4,983 Posted July 23, 2020 Author Popular Post Share Posted July 23, 2020 From what I understand, up until War Horse, the orchestrator(s) took JW's sketches and prepared the full 32-line handwritten pencil score, and that was then turned to Mark Graham's team at JAKMS, who proof-read everything and prepare the parts. From Lincoln onwards, JW decided to turn the sketches directly to Graham's team at JAKMS, who prepare both the full score and all the parts directly into Finale from JW's sketches. I think all this was detailed in an interview with Graham here: https://www.finalemusic.com/blog/may-the-fourth-spotlight-on-joann-kane-music/ As for Bill Ross being credited as orchestrator in TFA and TROS, I guess it was JW's decision to have him as a closer helping hand in both occasions (he also did some conducting). Incanus, Once, Muad'Dib and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post BrotherSound 2,242 Posted July 23, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted July 23, 2020 3 hours ago, Disco Stu said: My question is why, especially in the last 10 years, sometimes a project has credited orchestrators (e.g., William Ross on TFA and TROS) and sometimes there is none. From my understanding, when there is no credited orchestrator, Williams hands his detailed short scores directly to JKMS to expand out into the parts and conductor's score, but when we are told that the credited orchestrators aren't doing anything more complicated than what a score preparer does, why sometimes use them and sometimes not? How is what Mark Graham and his team at JKMS do on these projects functionally different from what a credited orchestrator does? There’s a crucial detail that I think may help clear things up: Williams’ sketches themselves changed considerably when he stopped using credited orchestrators. The vast majority of JW sketches pre-2012 are 8 staves, with the strings on 3 staves (violin 1 and 2 together, viola, cello and bass together). Here’s an example from 2008: There’s not a lot of ambiguity in the sketch above, but the orchestrator does occasionally have to make decisions about exactly how to divide voicings between woodwind instruments or between first and second violins, etc. In recent years, his already detailed sketches have actually become even more detailed, with 16 staves now standard, with the strings written out on 5 staves, as they usually would be in a full score. While this is still not quite a full score, there’s now enough space to write everything out with enough detail that there’s almost no decisions left for an orchestrator to make, not even the fairly trivial ones they made before. Here’s a 2015 example: On 7/22/2020 at 9:30 AM, Remco said: It’s also interesting to note that the assignment of woodwinds in tuttis is the single thing that orchestrators usually mention as being up to their discretion. That certainly was true before, but you’ll see above instead of a single “W.W.” staff, as he often used to write, there are now separate staves for flute, oboe, clarinet, and bassoon. 2 hours ago, TownerFan said: As for Bill Ross being credited as orchestrator in TFA and TROS, I guess it was JW's decision to have him as a closer helping hand in both occasions (he also did some conducting). I think it was either @crumbs or @Datameister who spotted that one of the sketches in the TFA doc is actually in Bill Ross’ handwriting. I believe he took the lead while JW was at Tanglewood, probably adapting the already composed cues to fit all the substantial editing changes that kept happening during post-production. Note that he did not receive this credit for The Last Jedi, which is the only film of the sequel trilogy that did not have any recording sessions during the Tanglewood season, having concluded by mid-June 2017. Muad'Dib, Smeltington, Timo Martikainen and 15 others 16 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artguy360 1,843 Posted July 24, 2020 Share Posted July 24, 2020 Awesome post @BrotherSound I love this peek into JW's composing process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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