The New Yorker interview with John Williams

[crocodile 8,857]

Here.

 

It's tiny bit different from the regular tired anecdotes. It's a pretty good article.

 

Quote

Benny was a famously irascible character, but in later years he was always very encouraging to me. One time he got irritated was when I arranged ‘Fiddler on the Roof.’ ‘Write your own music,’ he said.

 

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The nine “Star Wars” scores make use of a vast library of leitmotifs—more than sixty of them, according to the scholar Frank Lehman. I showed Williams a copy of Lehman’s “Complete Catalogue of the Musical Themes of ‘Star Wars,’ ” which left him a bit nonplussed. (“Oh, wow,” he said, paging through it. “How exhausting.”)

Quote

John Gracie, another longtime British trumpeter, remembers calling Murphy and asking how things were going at the new job. “Oh, all right,” Murphy answered. “We’re recording the music for a film with a big bear in it.”

Quote

After casting another quizzical glance at Frank Lehman’s catalogue of leitmotifs, Williams went on, “Whether I’ve been as successful with the new ones as with the old ones, I don’t know. What I can tell you is that these genuine, simple tunes are the hardest things to uncover, for any composer. When Elgar or Beethoven finally finds one—I hope you’ll pardon me if it sounds like I’m comparing myself to these people, but it might illustrate the point—in both cases, they understood what they had. Things that may seem more interesting, more harmonically attractive, don’t quite do the job. And so you end up—as a film composer, at least—not always doing what you initially set out to do. People assume it’s what you wanted to write, but it’s what you needed to write.”

 

Karol

[BrotherSound 2,468]

New profile of John Williams from Alex Ross in The New Yorker today: https://www.newyorker.com/culture/persons-of-interest/the-force-is-still-strong-with-john-williams?curator=MusicREDEF

 

Williams was able to pinpoint the exact date he started composing the music for Star Wars to January 10th, 1977 thanks to an old diary. I hope these diaries will be part of the future collection at Juilliard!

[Sunshine Reger 3,622]

Quote

I showed Williams a copy of Lehman’s “Complete Catalogue of the Musical Themes of ‘Star Wars,’ ” which left him a bit nonplussed. (“Oh, wow,” he said, paging through it. “How exhausting.”) 

 

Just imagine his reaction to our cue sheets and microedit discussions 

 

Edit:

Quote

Now scholars like Lehman specialize in the field, and online fan sites chronicle minutiae. Williams is delighted by that attention, yet he wishes that concert composers also got their due. 

So... can it be said that he knows about JWFan's existence? A riddle of the ages solved!

 

Excellent article overall.

[Drew 594]

I saw the line about Lehman and immediately came here to see if you were already talking about it.

[BrotherSound 2,468]

4 minutes ago, Drew said:

I saw the line about Lehman and immediately came here to see if you were already talking about it.

I wonder if @Falstaft knew about this already or not…

[Disco Stu 15,506]

I assume Frank is too busy weeping on the floor to comment at the moment

[Ludwig 1,179]

Quote

I showed Williams a copy of Lehman’s “Complete Catalogue of the Musical Themes of ‘Star Wars,’ ” which left him a bit nonplussed. (“Oh, wow,” he said, paging through it. “How exhausting.”)

 

To which Williams replied, "whether it be for Leia, or perhaps her relationship with Han, or Luke and Leia together, or the romance of Padme and Anakin, or even in the latest film, the very close-knit trio of main heroes, my only regret in writing all these themes is that I never got around to composing anything approaching a love theme."

[Sunshine Reger 3,622]

.

 

[artguy360 1,980]

Nice that JW calls out Images as one of her favorite scores.

[Disco Stu 15,506]

I desperately want to read the complete correspondence between Williams and Milton Babbitt.  The writer of Star Wars exchanging ideas with the writer of "Who Cares If You Listen?" My god.

[Romão 2,360]

Great article

[bollemanneke 3,813]

I just started to read this, but why does everyone keep saying that JW's Star Wars output has never been rivaled? I mean, Barry and Bond?

[Meredith McKay 7,317]

16 minutes ago, bollemanneke said:

I just started to read this, but why does everyone keep saying that JW's Star Wars output has never been rivaled? I mean, Barry and Bond?

Probably because of how loose Bond is in terms of continuity.

[Falstaft 2,197]

59 minutes ago, BrotherSound said:

I wonder if @Falstaft knew about this already or not…

 

I'm as floored as the rest of you! I knew from social media that Alex Ross had chatted w/ JW back in February, but had no idea about the content of their interview, or that the maestro himself apparently leafed through my catalogue. 

 

I can't imagine the "online fan sites" Ross says Williams is "delighted" by could be anything other than JWfan. It means a lot, even in just this small way, to know that JW is aware of all the passion and interest his music has inspired in this little community.

 

[Chen G. 4,929]

Very interesting interview. However...

 

Quote

As Williams remembers it, Lucas had been entertaining the idea of using preëxisting classical works on the “Star Wars” soundtrack. [...] Lucas, through a representative, says that he never intended to use extant music in the film.

 

This is consistent with what Williams said back in 1977 for the liner notes, so we know its not his memory that's to fault.

 

Rather, its ol' man Lucas trying to rewrite history again. You'd think now that he's retired he'd give it a rest already.

 

Sigh...

[KK 3,310]

That last quote is brilliant. So eloquently nails the crisis of being a popular composer. 

 

There are some other neat quotes in there too!

 

Looks like Williams is a fan of Andrew Norman's work and has given him his blessings:

Quote

Early in Williams’s career, film composers received scant attention as creative figures. Now scholars like Lehman specialize in the field, and online fan sites chronicle minutiae. Williams is delighted by that attention, yet he wishes that concert composers also got their due. “I’ve heard a few pieces by a young American composer, Andrew Norman, who is very good,” he said. “Might there not be a bigger audience for his work, too? I would love to see that.” As it happens, the admiration is mutual: Norman has said that he first felt the pull of orchestral music while watching his family’s VHS copy of “Star Wars.”

 

And I had no idea that Williams and Milton Babbitt were in correspondence. Especially given Babbitt's dickish attitude towards music outside of school of modernism:

Quote

“How or why Milton had any interest in me whatever, I don’t know,” Williams said. “But I loved receiving his letters, in his tiny handwriting. He was very interested in Bernard Herrmann, and asked me questions about him. One time, I had written this little quartet, for the Messiaen combination of clarinet, violin, cello, and piano. Milton heard it because it was played at Obama’s Inauguration. He rang me up and said, ‘I liked the little thing you did.’ He was on another plane of thought. I have a book of his where he talks about ‘concatenations of aggregates.’ But the funny thing is that he originally wanted to be a songwriter. He wanted to compose musicals. We both adored Jerome Kern, and often spoke of this. He famously said that he’d rather have written one tune by Jerome Kern than the rest of his oeuvre. That was the world I came out of, too, so we had lots to talk about.”

 

 

It's also clear to me here that Williams seems to recognize more of himself in the concert world than the film world these days. But he seems to have made his peace with his fame and success and puts it so elegantly to words, even with the interviewer is fishing for silly romantic notions:

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"It has been an extraordinary journey with these films, and with my entire career as well. The idea of becoming a professional film composer, never mind writing nine ‘Star Wars’ scores over forty years, was not a consciously sought-after goal. It simply happened. All of this, I have to say to you, has been the result of a beneficent randomness. Which often produces the best things in life.”

 

[Sunshine Reger 3,622]

The answer to the question of a want of audience for contemporary concert composers lies exactly in Babbitt's words. The audience, too, would rather have one tune by Jerome Kern. If Williams wrote like Varese, his position would likely be similar to Babbitt's.

 

We are all extremely lucky he didn't listen to Previn, and stayed in Hollywood instead.

[bollemanneke 3,813]

Amen.

[Chen G. 4,929]

1 hour ago, bollemanneke said:

why does everyone keep saying that JW's Star Wars output has never been rivaled? I mean, Barry and Bond?

 

Bond is an anthology, and so the music doesn't get to function as this kind of grand tapestry that Williams Star Wars score or Shore's Middle Earth scores do. Those are the only two in the buisness of that scope, along with - in the world of opera - Wagner's work on the Ring cycle.

 

Other works on film series, by Zimmer et al (Pirates), Silvestri (Back to the Future, Avengers) and Williams himself (early Harry Potter) aren't as expansive or cohesive.

[TownerFan 5,554]

It’s possibly the best JW interview in years. It truly helps when you have a brilliant writer and excellent music critic who knows his stuff doing the piece.

 

I’m very glad also to see the work of scholars like Frank and Emilio recognized. Well done, dear friends!

[Manakin Skywalker 5,554]

Quote

I handed John a tablet with the browser opened to a website called JWFan.com, a fan site where enthusiasts for all over the world discuss his life's work on a daily basis. He seemed perplexed by the device, not knowing how to use it. "You use your finger, John," I said to him, "they are discussions categorized by topic. You just press on it." He nodded in understanding and began to skim through the numerous topics. After adjusting his glasses a couple of times to read, he selected one. 'Other Topics'. This is where users discuss generally non-music-related subjects. After a bit more skimming, he paused. Suddenly he gave a distinct look of bewilderment, and looked up at me... "Who is the sexiest young celebrity these days?"

 

[Quintus 5,544]

 

[Manakin Skywalker 5,554]

"Hot damn!" -John Williams

[Tom 5,333]

I see Williams explained his prominent use of the Timpani due to loud sound effects in current movies.  How directors can be so dumb is beyond me. 

[crumbs 15,228]

I just hope he didn't scroll down far enough to find, 'Does anyone else have a serious problem staring at women's breasts?' 

[King Mark 3,779]

I don't care about all this, I just want to know what he said when Spielberg asked him to score Schindler's List

[publicist 4,647]

Quote

I asked him whether he had any personal favorites among his Hollywood scores—especially the less renowned ones. He told me, “Years ago, I did a film called ‘Images’ for Robert Altman, and the score used all kinds of effects for piano, percussion, and strings. It had a debt to Varèse, whose music enormously interested me. If I had never written film scores, if I had proceeded writing concert music, it might have been in this vein. I think I would have enjoyed it. I might even have been fairly good at it. But my path didn’t go that way.”

 

A note to all the blockbuster-obsessed JW fans.

[Edmilson 9,763]

I listened to Images once, it was... odd. I need to listen to it again, with a new perspective.

[Tom 5,333]

I find this New Yorker interview to be a rather clever jab at inter-office politics and nice commentary on contemporary mores.  

[Bayesian 1,492]

Agree with the folks here who say this interview was more interesting than the usual fare we get. My only quibble was Ross parenthetically stating that Herrmann was America’s greatest film composer. I chalk that up to the journalistic reflex for wanting to come across as “objective“ in a piece that’s otherwise entirely flattering toward its subject.

[aviazn 273]

I took it more to be Alex Ross' opinion. He's a critic, he's allowed to have them, and he's written a lot about Hermann in the past.

 

Just want to add my congrats to Frank and Emilio!

[Lewya 361]

I am more surprised how Alex Ross have seemingly turned around his opinion about John Williams - he dismissed Williams as an "accomplished pasticheur" in the late 1990s I believe.

 

I don't see why Ross stating that Herrmann is the greatest American film composer is a problem. There are also other American film composers other than Herrmann who are also more imaginative/progressive than Williams and therefore for some better composers.

 

Sure, that is Ross opinion, but Herrmann was a true original and was often innovative in terms of how he treated the orchestra. Many thoughtful listeners would agree with him.

 

Ross has said that he is a "big fan" of Herrmann in the past and even wrote the liner notes to a Herrmann anthology back in the 1990s, where he stated that Herrmann was "certainly the greatest Hollywood film composer", then a decade or so later when he reviewed a concert of film music, he wrote that Herrmann was "probably the greatest American film composer", now it is apparently "perhaps the greatest American film composer" that he choose to use in the article. I wonder what changed in 20-some years from "certainly" to "perhaps" in regards to Herrmann being the greatest American film composer. 

 

In 2007, Ross listed his top 10 Hollywood film scores on his blog:

 

Vertigo - Bernard Herrmann

Chinatown - Jerry Goldsmith

The Adventures of Robin Hood - Erich Wolfgang Korngold

Laura - David Raksin

On the Waterfront - Leonard Bernstein

Of Mice and Men - Aaron Copland

Anatomy of a Murder - Duke Ellington & Billy Strayhorn

Touch of Evil - Henry Mancini

The Lord of the Rings - Howard Shore

Star Wars - John Williams

 

And out of those 10, Vertigo was considered a great musical work of the 20th century. At another occasion, Ross has said that "Vertigo may be the greatest of all film scores".

 

Ross also stated that he would be tempted to include 3 or 4 more Herrmann scores if he hadn't limited himself to one film per composer.

 

Ross considers Close Encounters of the Third Kind to be Williams' best score, even if he picked Star Wars back in 2007 when he made the list.

 

Personally, I totally understand why Herrmann is singled out, because he was such an original pathbreaker for American film music.

[Cerebral Cortex 3,359]

On 7/21/2020 at 2:38 PM, Falstaft said:

I can't imagine the "online fan sites" Ross says Williams is "delighted" by could be anything other than JWfan. It means a lot, even in just this small way, to know that JW is aware of all the passion and interest his music has inspired in this little community.

 

I'd have to imagine (or at least hope) that, with Williams having been made aware of things like your catalog and the online interest and discussion of his music, it has to feel quite gratifying in a way, no? Like, there have to have been multiple occasions where Williams put so much effort in a scene only to walk away after a film's horrible sound mix is locked thinking "nobody is going to even pick up on that musical idea" or "that motif will go unrealized for the most part in this film by people." So to then be confronted with things like your catalog, for instance, as living proof that a lot of that hard work didn't go unnoticed, that there are those who appreciate and take the time to understand what he was going for... that has to be a great feeling, and perhaps something that Williams actually maybe didn't fully realize until now?  

[Falstaft 2,197]

23 minutes ago, Cerebral Cortex said:

Like, there have to have been multiple occasions where Williams put so much effort in a scene only to walk away after a film's horrible sound mix is locked thinking "nobody is going to even pick up on that musical idea" or "that motif will go unrealized for the most part in this film by people." 

 

I secretly hope he flipped to the page that contains the theme from TROS "The Speeder Chase" and thought to himself "oh good, at least there are a few people who have heard that one..."

 

 

[Sunshine Reger 3,622]

3 hours ago, Lewya said:

I wonder what changed in 20-some years from "certainly" to "perhaps" in regards to Herrmann being the greatest American film composer. 

Maybe he heard more Williams scores, more times, in more complete forms.

[Ludwig 1,179]

I'm still blown away by the fact that Williams himself actually leafed through @Falstaft's catalogue! And just riffing on what @Cerebral Cortex said, I'd say that the catalogue with the amount of work that's gone into it (not to mention the length of its bibliography) is perhaps the most immediate way of seeing just how much of an impact his film music has made in the academic realm.

 

I've contributed to that scholarship as well, and every time I analyze Williams' music for any kind of research, I find that it stands up to the rigorous kind of scrutiny that scholars typically subject music to. There's a consistently high level of musicality, which is hard to put into words, but it's things like attention to the smallest details, breadth and depth of knowledge, and appropriateness of technique that time and again rewards the study put into it.

 

One of the greatest things about Williams' film music is not just that it has an impressive complexity and richness to it, but that it merges that complexity with an attractive simplicity (usually through the themes) - that allows the music to be accessible to just about anyone.

[Loert 2,864]

17 minutes ago, Ludwig said:

One of the greatest things about Williams' film music is not just that it has an impressive complexity and richness and to it, but that it merges that complexity with an attractive simplicity (usually through the themes) - that allows the music to be accessible to just about anyone.

 

Amen!

[Pando 152]

2 hours ago, Falstaft said:

 

I secretly hope he flipped to the page that contains the theme from TROS "The Speeder Chase" and thought to himself "oh good, at least there are a few people who have heard that one..."

 

Good one

[lairdo 742]

The article is wonderful, and in The New Yorker style, almost more of a conversation than an interview. Ross not only raises interesting questions and gets interesting answers, but he also sets the scene for us in a way that invites us into the room. Perhaps because we on this site delve into all those micro edits, this is easier for us to imagine. Still, I think the average reader will also feel closer to Williams than they have in the past and know more about him beyond just the composer of big scores. It's been on my mind to re-read Ross's The Rest is Noise as I have been spending a lot of time listening to 20th century works. (Benjamin Britten and Mieczysław Weinberg have become fast favorites over the past year.) I guess I will follow my instinct.

 

Images has also been on my mind to watch (still have not seen it despite having the Blu-Ray and ripping that to my iPad), and I will listen to the score again today. (Is that perhaps on JW's mind because of some sort of release beyond the Prometheus one that is coming? Wouldn't think so, but who knows?) When you combine that with his comments on Andrew Norman (I like his recent piece with the LA Phil & Gustavo "Sustain" and just got the BMOP SACD "Play" which I have not  cracked open yet), there is some sense of the modern composer coming through. I wish Ross had connected those thoughts to the original Star Wars score that contains these elements and presenting Williams' work as more linked than different careers by the same person.

 

I do wonder if Anne-Sophie and JW mentioning the Violin Concerto over the past month in various interviews was because they (and their teams) knew it would show up in this article which is probably the widest circulation of this news?

 

On Herrmann: I have no question in my mind that Herrmann is one of the most talented and amazing composers of film music. Perhaps he was the most innovative too, but I think, without trying to bring in the obvious bias that comes with being a regular here, Ross might miss a key aspect of Williams (or Korngold or Goldsmith) that puts him ahead. Not only has Williams innovated and done amazing works even to lesser films, he has also done so in a way that is memorable. Sure, I can hear in my head many themes by Herrmann, particularly for his Hitchcock scores, but not as many as Williams and not ones I want to spend as much time with --- and ones that also work perfectly with the films and can be played in concert halls. Popularism is not a bad thing, particularly if it brings the artistry to people in a way they wish to engage with. We have no true measure of "best" in any evaluation such as this, but I do think the acceptance of works after a period of evaluation is part of a measure the greatness. 

 

Lastly, my congrats as well to Frank and Emilio.

 

(And upon going back through the comments, Ludwig made my last point so much more eloquently!)

14 hours ago, Ludwig said:

One of the greatest things about Williams' film music is not just that it has an impressive complexity and richness to it, but that it merges that complexity with an attractive simplicity (usually through the themes) - that allows the music to be accessible to just about anyone.

 

 

[Disco Stu 15,506]

12 minutes ago, lairdo said:

Benjamin Britten and Mieczysław Weinberg have become fast favorites over the past year.

 

What are your favorite Britten pieces?  The ones I find myself returning to the most are the Spring Symphony and the Serenade for Tenor, Horn, and Strings.  The former especially is easily my favorite of his entire catalog.

[Bayesian 1,492]

23 hours ago, aviazn said:

I took it more to be Alex Ross' opinion. He's a critic, he's allowed to have them, and he's written a lot about Hermann in the past.

 

22 hours ago, Lewya said:

I don't see why Ross stating that Herrmann is the greatest American film composer is a problem. There are also other American film composers other than Herrmann who are also more imaginative/progressive than Williams and therefore for some better composers.

 

Sure, that is Ross opinion, but Herrmann was a true original and was often innovative in terms of how he treated the orchestra. Many thoughtful listeners would agree with him.

 

Ross has said that he is a "big fan" of Herrmann in the past and even wrote the liner notes to a Herrmann anthology back in the 1990s, where he stated that Herrmann was "certainly the greatest Hollywood film composer", then a decade or so later when he reviewed a concert of film music, he wrote that Herrmann was "probably the greatest American film composer", now it is apparently "perhaps the greatest American film composer" that he choose to use in the article. I wonder what changed in 20-some years from "certainly" to "perhaps" in regards to Herrmann being the greatest American film composer. 

I stand humbly corrected. I didn't realize that was Ross' long-held position on Herrmann. I guess it wouldn't hurt me to become more familiar with his scores, now that I think about it.

[Will 2,285]

This is a lovely interview. It's super cool that he's now aware of Prof. Lehman's work. It's also awesome that he might be aware of JWFan!! 

 

I say "might be," though, because I don't think we can definitively conclude as much from this article. The key passage: "Now scholars like Lehman specialize in the field, and online fan sites chronicle minutiae. Williams is delighted by that attention, yet he wishes that concert composers also got their due." Notice that none of this is a direct quote -- it is all Ross' words. It's virtually certain that the "online fan site[]" referred to must be JWFan. That essentially proves that Alex Ross knows about JWFan. But does Williams himself? Hard to say. It may well be that Ross asked him something general like, "How do you feel about all the attention your music gets?" and then Williams said, "I'm delighted, although I wish non-film composers today also were able to draw as much attention." 

 

Either way, this is a fantastic article. It inspired me to check out Andrew Norman's Sustain, which I had started listening to once but gave up on because it was too impressionistic/non-melodic. It's still a little hard to listen to for me but I will do some more listens to see if I can get into the piece. 

[JohnnyD 1,449]

This was such a nice article and interview with the Maestro. Even the title was great. The Force is indeed still strong with him.

[lairdo 742]

On 7/23/2020 at 6:41 AM, Disco Stu said:

 

What are your favorite Britten pieces?  The ones I find myself returning to the most are the Spring Symphony and the Serenade for Tenor, Horn, and Strings.  The former especially is easily my favorite of his entire catalog.

 

Those are lovely.

 

4 Sea Interludes from Peter Grimes, Op. 33a is short but a wonderful experience. You don't need to know the opera to enjoy these.

The Violin Concerto is great. Lots of recordings of it too. (Love the timpani to start it too. Wonder if brother Williams has played that.)

 

I have seen Turn of the Screw (Seattle Opera) and Billy Budd (SF Opera) and enjoyed them both immensely. 

 

(I am also listening to a lot of Leonard Bernstein and Dmitri Shostakovich!)

 

[karelm 3,156]

On 7/23/2020 at 6:41 AM, Disco Stu said:

 

What are your favorite Britten pieces?  The ones I find myself returning to the most are the Spring Symphony and the Serenade for Tenor, Horn, and Strings.  The former especially is easily my favorite of his entire catalog.

His Violin Concerto is excellent as his Sinfonia da Requiem and the full opera of Peter Grimes (the Sea Interludes is great too but the opera is excellent).  But for me, his masterpiece is the War Requiem.  A fantastic work, one of the greatest of the 20th century. 

[Disco Stu 15,506]

War Requiem is probably his masterpiece yes.  But I prefer Britten in his more playful and colorful mode generally.

[bruce marshall 1,403]

JW absolutely visits this site.

Problem is, he puts everyone on IGNORE EXCEPT Mcgyver!😜

1 minute ago, bruce marshall said:

JW absolutely visits this site.

Problem is, he puts everyone on IGNORE EXCEPT Mcgyver!😜

 

 

Re: HERRMANN

The man INVENTED film music I.e. the concept of underscoring.

But, Jerry is the " greatest".

Along with Johnny!😊

 

[BrotherSound 2,468]

5 hours ago, lairdo said:

The Violin Concerto is great. Lots of recordings of it too. (Love the timpani to start it too. Wonder if brother Williams has played that.)

Pretty unlikely Don Williams has played it, unless it was as a student or early on in his career. The top studio players like Don are generally booked up enough they don’t have time for too many other opportunities. Clearly he’s got the chops for it, though!

[publicist 4,647]

The Varése mention wasn't totally out of the left field, but i find it astounding just how much he had/has to submerge his fondness for abstract composition for his film works. 

[TownerFan 5,554]

On 7/26/2020 at 8:48 AM, publicist said:

The Varése mention wasn't totally out of the left field, but i find it astounding just how much he had/has to submerge his fondness for abstract composition for his film works. 

 

It reminds Morricone's similar "double life" syndrome. But I think that both of them were so naturally inclined for melodic writing (at least judging by the sheer number of memorable themes they both produced over their film career) that it would have emerged nonetheless.