Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 3 minutes ago, The Big Man said: He comes across as unfriendly and antagonistic online towards anyone politely asking for help. Reminds me a bit of Ford Thaxton. I'll never forget when he wished death on someone he disapproved of on Facebook through some platitude meme graphic, maniac. I remember that! Truly sick. Typical deranged Hollyweird nut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koray Savas 2,251 Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 1 hour ago, mrbellamy said: Zimmer can say whatever tf he wants but he's obviously punching wayyyyyyy down here. And the legacy of people on this board and other social media circles don’t when talking about him or others? Is the irony lost on people who complain about an RCP score getting a complete release yet that’s all they clamor for from the labels? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricard 2,245 Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 28 minutes ago, The Big Man said: He comes across as unfriendly and antagonistic online towards anyone politely asking for help. Reminds me a bit of Ford Thaxton. I'll never forget when he wished death on someone he disapproved of on Facebook through some platitude meme graphic, maniac. Isn't Ford a "nicer guy" now? bruce marshall 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 There are very few of us here who aren't apologists for these people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrbellamy 6,278 Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 4 minutes ago, Koray Savas said: And the legacy of people on this board and other social media circles don’t when talking about him or others? In what universe is a bunch of nobodies farting into the wind about an incredibly popular and successful composer considered punching down? Jurassic Shark and Unlucky Bastard 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 Corporate Kissbutt Koray Unlucky Bastard and Jurassic Shark 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koray Savas 2,251 Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 Hey, if you talk shit, don’t be surprised if someone hurls it back at you. This whole thing could have been avoided if people didn’t judge a score by its runtime without even hearing it. Zimmer responded more in that thread than the one comment that was posted here. Mephariel 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrbellamy 6,278 Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 I have no info, really. My only takeaway so far is that if Southall actually quit over that one post, then he's pretty thin-skinned, and that it also just makes Zimmer look like a dumbass. Jurassic Shark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted March 8, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted March 8, 2021 Well, Zimmer and John Ottoman post on Facebook like a couple of bored housewives. Ricard, Unlucky Bastard and Jurassic Shark 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK 3,307 Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 26 minutes ago, mrbellamy said: I have no info, really. My only takeaway so far is that if Southall actually quit over that one post, then he's pretty thin-skinned, and that it also just makes Zimmer look like a dumbass. My takeaway as well. I would presume that there was more to Southall quitting than the Zimmer comment. 39 minutes ago, Koray Savas said: This whole thing could have been avoided if people didn’t judge a score by its runtime without even hearing it. Yea, but that's the internet, isn't it? Uber-passionate fanboys who passionately condemn or endorse without nuance. Just doesn't seem very graceful of Zimmer to start swinging under the belt in return. I might understand the frustration he might feel, knowing more about the actual labour that goes behind the curtains getting casually dismissed by Facebook commenters, and I usually appreciate when he sprinkles a little reality-dose with the fans, but this outburst seems like a pretty naive way to respond on his part. You're a successful millionaire film composer with legions of fans chanting your name...why get so riled up by a few dissenters in a Facebook comments section? I should also point out that I don't know what the rest of that conversation looks like. Ricard and Tom Guernsey 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 22 minutes ago, KK said: You're a successful millionaire film composer with legions of fans chanting your name...why get so riled up by a few dissenters in a Facebook comments section? Because deep down he knows what his detractors say about him is true. He doth protest too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post publicist 4,643 Posted March 8, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted March 8, 2021 18 minutes ago, KK said: Just doesn't seem very graceful of Zimmer to start swinging under the belt in return. I made the mistake of reading Zimmer's response after seeing all the mayhem created here and had a 'storm in a teacup' moment. Nothing he wrote to Southall warrants all that clamour. That being said, a passionate defense of what will essentially be the 100st Junkie Spotify dumpster borefest of epic proportions seems a bit tragic, really. At least i can take solace in a last bit of biblical righteousness: it's a movie that deserves its score. Fabulin, Bayesian, crumbs and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mephariel 451 Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 1 hour ago, Koray Savas said: Hey, if you talk shit, don’t be surprised if someone hurls it back at you. This whole thing could have been avoided if people didn’t judge a score by its runtime without even hearing it. Zimmer responded more in that thread than the one comment that was posted here. Yep. Don't start fires if you don't want that smoke. Jurassic Shark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 1 hour ago, Gruesome Son of a Bitch said: Corporate Kissbutt Koray This forum is full of corporate shills. It's become like Twitter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Zimmer 211 Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 Cry me a river. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 Darth Zimmer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricard 2,245 Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 3 hours ago, The Big Man said: This forum is full of corporate shills. It's become like Twitter. You've been saying similar things for a while now. Are you hinting at your imminent departure? Ollie 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted March 8, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted March 8, 2021 5 minutes ago, Ricard said: You've been saying similar things for a while now. Are you hinting at your imminent departure? I have nowhere else to go. Ricard, Jurassic Shark and DarthDementous 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,054 Posted March 8, 2021 Author Share Posted March 8, 2021 Hey guys, please stick to the topic. Has HanZ aged well, yes or no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 He's a tired old man. He can't run his company without me. And besides... he doesn't know. Gruesome Son of a Bitch 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,346 Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 20 hours ago, Bespin said: What happened with Zimmer and a popular reviewer on Facebook? People are saying Zimmer was drunk and made a personal attack against him? 18 hours ago, Edmilson said: What happened? 18 hours ago, Edmilson said: Someone please post some prints or at the very least links to what happened, I need to see this! 17 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said: Can someone please share a link to this? 17 hours ago, Taikomochi said: I haven’t seen the actual posts. Just this thread recounting: 16 hours ago, KK said: I've only seen Erik's summation of the events. Apparently it was in response to the 4 hour length of JXL's upcoming Justice League score. Someone said something like: "it would have to be the best score in the world to warrant that length". And Southall wrote "Exactly.", to which Zimmer responded: 10 hours ago, Koray Savas said: Zimmer responded more in that thread than the one comment that was posted here. What the heck everyone - can somebody please post the ENTIRE thing before we continue to discuss the one part of of that has been posted? I wouldn't even know where to find it but some of you clearly know. Can you please take the time to copy and paste it all here? Thank you. bollemanneke 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted March 8, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted March 8, 2021 If an item does not appear in our records, it does not exist. bollemanneke, Bespin, Unlucky Bastard and 2 others 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,480 Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 Well, THAT's the story. And James Southall posted this on his web page after removing ALL his Zimmer reviews from his website (because he was a fan, a critical mind of Zimmer's work, but a fan... and this is why Southall is hurted so much I think). http://www.movie-wave.net/the-end-of-an-error/ Imagine John Williams posting on Facebook that my website is shite... I would burn all his albums! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,346 Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 44 minutes ago, Bespin said: Well, THAT's the story. I don't think that's true 17 hours ago, Taikomochi said: I haven’t seen the actual posts 17 hours ago, KK said: I've only seen Erik's summation of the events. 10 hours ago, Koray Savas said: Zimmer responded more in that thread than the one comment that was posted here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,480 Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 I asked to @SoundtrackMemes on Twitter, if James Southall received a formal notice from Zimmer, and it seems it's not the case. Fabulin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Van_Etten 111 Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 Hans didn't really criticized Southall in any meaningful way. All he told him is how Junkie "knows more" than him, people like JXL (argumentum ad populum) and then gave him some snort retort (possibly referring to one of his reviews). Just to bloat his ego. Jurassic Shark and Bespin 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Erik Woods 555 Posted March 8, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted March 8, 2021 10 hours ago, Koray Savas said: Hey, if you talk shit, don’t be surprised if someone hurls it back at you. This whole thing could have been avoided if people didn’t judge a score by its runtime without even hearing it. Zimmer responded more in that thread than the one comment that was posted here. That's not what happened here. James didn't judge the score at all. He agreed with a comment about album length. If you know James at all you'd know that he is a staunch defender of properly curated albums for listening. James would have agreed with the same comment if it was John Williams who had announced that his The Book Thief score was going to be a four hour presentation. The entire thread was actually quite negative towards JXL and whatnot so Zimmer put the first person he saw in his crosshairs and fired. James was that victim and Hans decided to let his ego dictate his actions. And what he did was nothing but a personal attack on James; a guy who has been a fan of Zimmer's work since the beginning and has written glowing reviews of Zimmer's work as well. But no, Zimmer had to focus on the negative. Zimmer was a bully yesterday. Zimmer's the one at fault here and bullying should never be tolerated. Here's something a friend of mine wrote yesterday in response to this, which I agree with.1) Zimmer is one of the most powerful and influential film composers of this century. 2) someone states that a 20-hour release of one Zimmer's protégés may be a bit much. 3) James says "exactly". Literally. That is ALL he says. 4) Zimmer, the famous, massively influential billionaire (much of whose work James has admired since the beginning by the way) comes back with THIS. Yes. That is bullying. These days. Yesterdays. Tomorrow. ANY day. And that has led a hard working family man who writes reviews for the love of it (for more that two decades) to hang it all up... although I'm sure he'll be back sometime but it won't be the same James writing new reviews and that's terribly, terribly sad. -Erik- MikeH, Jurassic Shark, Tom Guernsey and 5 others 7 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Taikomochi 1,136 Posted March 8, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted March 8, 2021 12 hours ago, Koray Savas said: Hey, if you talk shit, don’t be surprised if someone hurls it back at you. This whole thing could have been avoided if people didn’t judge a score by its runtime without even hearing it. Zimmer responded more in that thread than the one comment that was posted here. Lick that boot harder, my dude. Zimmer was acting like an asshole. You can still like his music without excusing him acting like a cunt. Unless Southall has made other comments in that thread than the “exactly”, which I haven’t seen anyone else say otherwise. Holko, Erik Woods, Tom Guernsey and 2 others 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Jay 37,346 Posted March 8, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted March 8, 2021 3 minutes ago, Erik Woods said: That's not what happened here. James didn't judge the score at all. He agreed with a comment about album length. [...] The entire thread was actually quite negative towards JXL and whatnot so Zimmer put the first person he saw in his crosshairs and fired. James was that victim and Hans decided to let his ego dictate his actions. And what he did was nothing but a personal attack on James; a guy who has been a fan of Zimmer's work since the beginning and has written glowing reviews of Zimmer's work as well. But no, Zimmer had to focus on the negative. Zimmer was a bully yesterday. Zimmer's the one at fault here and bullying should never be tolerated. Here's something a friend of mine wrote yesterday in response to this, which I agree with. Can you PLEASE post screenshots of all this so we can see it all for ourselves? I'd really appreciate it very much, thank you so much Jurassic Shark, Chewy and Taikomochi 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Woods 555 Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 3 minutes ago, Jay said: Can you PLEASE post screenshots of all this so we can see it all for ourselves? I'd really appreciate it very much, thank you so much Are you a friend of Mikael Carlsson's on Facebook? If so, it's all there. If not, then this is how it began. Taikomochi 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edmilson 7,432 Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 Is Zimmer a billionaire? I mean, I know he is quite rich, but I never thought film score composers can earn money like this, even if you're a famous composer like him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Woods 555 Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 1 minute ago, Edmilson said: Is Zimmer a billionaire? I mean, I know he is quite rich, but I never thought film score composers can earn money like this, even if you're a famous composer like him. It's an over-exaggeration to make a point. Edmilson 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 Unlucky Bastard and Erik Woods 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,346 Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 21 minutes ago, Erik Woods said: Are you a friend of Mikael Carlsson's on Facebook? I don't even know who that is Quote If so, it's all there. If not, then this is how it began. Thank you for the "how it began"; But how did it end? Is there more, or is this all of it? Looking at the whole picture here, at first I thought Hans was actually replying to "Gary Dalkin" but accidentally click on James' comment instead, until he specifically started talking about "the banality of one of your articles". So, I guess Hans has had these thoughts about James' reviews for a while and just took this random opportunity to finally share them publicly for... reasons? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taikomochi 1,136 Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 Is Gary Dalkin also a person that writes articles on film music? Seems like Hans was pretty specific on that point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Erik Woods 555 Posted March 8, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted March 8, 2021 2 minutes ago, Jay said: I don't even know who that is Mikael Carlsson is the owner of MovieScore Media. And was also the editor of the magazine Music from the Movies. Before that he was a film music reviewer and wrote various film music articles for Film Score Monthly, Soundtrack, etc. Quote Thank you for the "how it began"; But how did it end? Is there more, or is this all of it? Well, James just apologized to Zimmer, which took balls. He didn't have to do that but this is what he wrote. "I realise now that I wrote words some years ago about Tom Holkenborg that were particularly mean-spirited and unkind. I am ashamed of that and apologise to him unreservedly. I’ve written about film music for 25 years because it’s my passion, but I’m not talented enough to actually write it so all I can do is write about it. It costs me money to do it and I can say categorically that I’ve never been interested in click bait. Opinions expressed were honestly-held - but sometimes poorly-expressed. So, really, sorry to Tom (in the very unlikely event he is reading)." Zimmer needs to step up RIGHT NOW and do the same. Actually, he should have been the first one to reach out and apologize. Shameful. -Erik- MikeH, SilverTrumpet and Holko 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Edmilson 7,432 Posted March 8, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted March 8, 2021 Wow, James Southall responded Zimmer like a gentlemen. If it was up to me, I'd told Zimmer he could go fuck himself. Tom Guernsey, Holko, Bilbo and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,346 Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 How is it known with absolute authority that that is truly Hans Zimmer's personal facebook account and not someone impersonating him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Woods 555 Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 4 minutes ago, Jay said: How is it known with absolute authority that that is truly Hans Zimmer's personal facebook account and not someone impersonating him? I know someone who knows Zimmer personally. It's Zimmer behind the keyboard. -Erik- Taikomochi 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverTrumpet 638 Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 7 minutes ago, Jay said: How is it known with absolute authority that that is truly Hans Zimmer's personal facebook account and not someone impersonating him? mstrox 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,346 Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 So are these 2 comments by Zimmer and 2 comments by Southal the entire thing? Or is there more? I feel like I am pulling teeth this morning trying to get the whole story out. A lot of people on this forum don't use Facebook, and need to see screenshots! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Woods 555 Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 And here's more piling on this time from a Justice League producer. Classy! 3 minutes ago, Jay said: So are these 2 comments by Zimmer and 2 comments by Southal the entire thing? Or is there more? I feel like I am pulling teeth this morning trying to get the whole story out. A lot of people on this forum don't use Facebook, and need to see screenshots! I don't have time to screenshot the whole thing. It's a massive thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Holko 9,516 Posted March 8, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted March 8, 2021 Just wanna say that Zimmer' a massive asshole here, but also that I massively appreciate Jay's attempts to get a full picture before piling on and judging. Refreshing in these times. Taikomochi, Bilbo, Erik Woods and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bollemanneke 3,342 Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 35 minutes ago, Erik Woods said: Are you a friend of Mikael Carlsson's on Facebook? If so, it's all there. If not, then this is how it began. Okay, I cracked, added him as a friend. Erik Woods and Jurassic Shark 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,054 Posted March 8, 2021 Author Share Posted March 8, 2021 One has to wonder why HanZ didn't attack the guy why actually commented on length vs. quality, Gary Dalkin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bayesian 1,362 Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 I a 14 minutes ago, Jay said: So are these 2 comments by Zimmer and 2 comments by Southal the entire thing? Or is there more? I feel like I am pulling teeth this morning trying to get the whole story out. A lot of people on this forum don't use Facebook, and need to see screenshots! 5 minutes ago, Holko said: Just wanna say that Zimmer' a massive asshole here, but also that I massively appreciate Jay's attempts to get a full picture before piling on and judging. Refreshing in these times. I sent Carlsson a friend request. If he accepts, I will screenshot and post the whole thread here. No one else seems willing to do the work. Edmilson and Jay 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Woods 555 Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 4 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said: One has to wonder why HanZ didn't attack the guy why actually commented on length vs. quality, Gary Dalkin. Because there is a history between Zimmer and James. James writes a bad review, Zimmer cries like a baby. James writes a bad review of a JXL score, Zimmer cries like a baby. I have no problem if a composer has an issue with a review but man, reach out to the writer privately, offer your opinion, maybe give him some facts that he might have missed and let the reviewer admen the review. Kindness is a magical thing. BTW, I'm no saint and I really do have to change my ways as well but Zimmer is just a big bully and this isn't the first time he's done this to someone. 2 minutes ago, Bayesian said: I sent Carlsson a friend request. If he accepts, I will screenshot and post the whole thread here. No one else seems willing to do the work. Or we are busy doing something else. This has nothing to do with laziness. Jurassic Shark and Tom Guernsey 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,480 Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 15 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said: One has to wonder why HanZ didn't attack the guy why actually commented on length vs. quality, Gary Dalkin. Zimmer attacked the "known" guy to fix him. Here's an interesting article about "Remote Control Productions", about how Zimmer works and why it raises some legitimate questions. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remote_Control_Productions_(American_company) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,054 Posted March 8, 2021 Author Share Posted March 8, 2021 55 minutes ago, Erik Woods said: And what he did was nothing but a personal attack on James; a guy who has been a fan of Zimmer's work since the beginning and has written glowing reviews of Zimmer's work as well. But no, Zimmer had to focus on the negative. This is only the start. Coming up: Billionaire film composer dethroned by #metoo. 4 minutes ago, Erik Woods said: I'm no saint Now you're just being modest. 5 minutes ago, Erik Woods said: Or we are busy doing something else. This has nothing to do with laziness. Anybody wants to ask HanZ for screenshots? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post filmmusic 1,826 Posted March 8, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted March 8, 2021 Zimmer's response: Quote James Southall , I really feel sorry for making you the target of my wrath. It was - as all these things are - uncalled for ...no excuse, and even this next explanation is not meant to be read to distract from my bad choice of words: But I am truly sick and tired about the way people perceive my friend JunkieXL. Or Lorne Balfe. They have truly their own voices, paid their dues and I think deserve respect and informed understanding of how and why they are writing what they are writing. In other words - they are originals with sensitive souls and their muse is easily extinguished by the power of words - not all that different from the feeling you seem to have come away with after my outburst. Especially in (and I can not go into the true background here) how JXL was treated in the first “Justice League” iteration. But surely even you must have gotten a whiff of that bad odor...That - and after that chap Thomas Something-or-other called him and me hacks... (I did like the “Satan” thing, though... ) an explosion was bound to happen. But either me, Rcp - which is consistently attacked and misunderstood and I believe helped in someways forge the way for some truly great composers like Harry Gregson-Williams, John Powell, Ben Wallfisch, Lorne Balfe, Heitor Pereira, Henry Jackman, etc.etc, etc... are constantly criticized for either our style or our lack of style and old fashioned academic knowledge. Without any single critic (except probably Daniel Schweiger) actually having inside knowledge of what, how, and why we do what we do...And I mean it: I’m happy to answer any question in person over a good glass of wine... I’ve done literally hundreds of press junkets in London - geographically close to you - but never known for you to turn up and actually be part of the conversation. (Maybe I have a flawed memory here. Pressjunkets are dehumanizing meat-grinders. You don’t remember a thing when they are over...) So, even in the good reviews, I always felt there was an element missing of a deep understanding of the true “why” of the choices being made. I truly believe a critic’s job is to dig beyond the surface, to find the cultural connections to the zeitgeist and the motives driving the work being discussed. Otherwise it’s just an opinion piece - no different from the opinions formed by any listener. Daniel is wrong when he says that no critic wrote a good score. I believe Michael Nyman was the music critic for “The Times” and was challenged to put his pen where his mouth is...and he is a damn good writer. So, James, what’s it going to be? Silence forever or a chance at dialogue? Jay, Fabulin, KK and 1 other 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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