Has Hans Zimmer aged well?

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

He forgot how to write music

[Jay 37,287]

Well Mikael Carlsson accepted my friend request, so I can now bring you the entire text of the entire conversation - or rather, any parts Zimmer and/or Southall participated in (and a David Arnold bit for good fun).

 

No idea why none of you with access were willing to do this for us after repeated requests, but at least I can get the job done now

 

Here is the original post:

 

 

Mikael Carlsson

Apparently, it's now the listener's job to kill your darlings. Junkie XL's score album for Justice League is going to be four hours long. FOUR HOURS?

 

 

In between each dotted line, I will paste in different comment chains starting with the comment that was a direct comment on the original post

 

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James Southall

There is literally no film score I would want to sit and listen to four hours of in one go. Indeed there is nothing at all I would want to sit and watch or listen to for four hours in one go. Junkie has seemed to get a bit better in the last couple of years but clearly I’m not going to listen to this unless someone produces an actual album of it.

 

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Gary Dalkin

This would have to be the best film score ever to justify that length. I doubt this is the best film score ever.

 

James Southall

Exactly

 

Hans Zimmer

James Southall , JXL knows a lot more of how to pace a musical experience than you probably ever will. Years of playing life (I once asked him what the biggest gig was he played: a million happy people in Rome) teaches you a lot about how to pace something, immerse the audience and give them an experience. Time moves differently during Covid. And it not Wagner’s ring, or the endless banality of one of your articles...
I’m still waiting with some eagerness to discover some sophistication and an open mind with a wider gaze and some revolutionary thoughts in your tastes.

 

James Southall

Wow. Thanks for the feedback.

 

Hans Zimmer

James Southall , my pleasure! Ta, Ta...

 

Edwin Wendler

“the endless banality of one of your articles”
I have read approx. 70% of James’s reviews, and I find them to be usually pretty concise and full of interesting observations, so I’m not sure if that criticism is warranted.
It is true, however, that pacing and length are not necessarily connected. One can feel bored after 4 minutes, or exhilarated after 4 hours. Let’s not pre-judge anything based on duration.

 

James Southall

Thanks Edwin! 70% would take some doing and I can only apologise for any turmoil suffered.

 

Edwin Wendler

James Southall I've always enjoyed reading your reviews, especially the Horner series (of which I have read 100%).

 

Erik Woods

Hans Zimmer Wait a minute. Didn't James say that your score to Wonder Woman 1984 was his favourite score of 2020? I'm curious, did you read THAT article?

 

Hans Zimmer

Erik Woods , Exactly! So many better scores out there....

 

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Stephan Eicke

As a record producer: if a composer just sh*t their recording sessions, worth four hours of music, on my desk, I would probably tell them to go to hell and never come back. I mean, life is short, man.
(I am, of course, exaggerating, but gosh, imagine all that work!)

 

David Arnold

Stephan Eicke imagine all that work ? but youre a record producer...thats the job isnt it? to make the best record out of what youre presented with.

 

Stephan Eicke

David Arnold The older I get the easier I want my life to be.

 

David Arnold

Stephan Eicke same !!

to be honest i wanted it to be easier since i can remember walking

 

Conrado Xalabarder

David Arnold And instead of being a priest you chose composing. Quite coherent 😀

 

David Arnold

Conrado Xalabarder sometimes it feels like I'm both

 

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Thomas Muething

Horrible. Holkenborg is a hack, he doesn't know how to write for orchestra. He should change his alias to JunkXXL.

 

Hans Zimmer

Thomas Muething , why does that make him a hack? How are you so sure of this? Could it be your provincial taste that jump to conclusions? Conversely, a lot of orchestral composers are lost when you sit them down in front of a computer. All music is created by musical instruments reflecting the technology of their time and a composer must master their language. I’d call those that are ignorant of the tools available to them in a modern film-score hacks and the luddites that opine an old narrow view of what ‘proper’ film music is just narrow minded fools that need to widen their gaze or they will never have the pleasure of experiencing the new...

 

Thomas Muething

 Hans Zimmer is a Schmierlappen. A successful Schmierlappen, partly because he's a Schmierlappen. All the powerr to him, and all the power to all Schmierlappens.

Hans Zimmer You know how to sweet-talk producers, and obviously thats the road to riches in Hollywood, while composers who are vastly more talented, or have vastly better craftsmanship, don't get major assignment. If buttering up people is the bare necessity, and I think it is, then be that as it may. That won't erase the memory of truly great componsers who knew how to actually l SET music,. Like Jerry Goldsmith, Alex North, Benny Hermann, Rózsa, Korngold, and Scores of others. That's what I respect: Craftsmanship. Not the ability to butter up people. Sorry not sorry: You're the gravedigger of quality film music in Hollywood.

Hans Zimmer BTW, I'm perfectly aware Im fighting windmills here. But I really do believe that as far as film music quality in general is concerned, Hans Zimmer truly is Satan. Not in any religious context, of course.Just in the sense that craftsmanship matters less and less, and showmanship matters more and more.

 

Mikael Carlsson

Thomas Muething Your entitled to you're opinion but perhaps not compare composers to Satan, at least not on my wall, ok?

 

Hans Zimmer

Thomas Muething , you must have spend a lot of time here in Hollywood, to have such a refined grasp of the facts. Let’s hear more. Let us into your knowledge, your professional credentials, your business and artistic acumen. Has it ever occurred to you that it takes a little more than sweet-talking any studio, director or producer and that you actually have to deliver the goods on a movie that not only has a director’s artistic dream he fought tooth and nail for at stake, but a studio’s financial future - or ruin? Tell me a business that gambles millions on the sweet talking of a dilettante, a constant fake - and I’ve been doing this for 40 years. I’ve had my training, paid my dues, learned from the best the appropriate lessons of music and - maybe not in a 19th century way - I might actually have put in the hours to learn my craft? Maybe someone like Richard Kraft
would like to address this from an Agent point of view? So, Thomas, be and honorable gentleman and explain to us where you’ve learned your facts about how a career not only is established but maintained.
We are all open to discovery and learning...

Mikael Carlsson , Satan?!? He flatters me, the minx! ❤️🤘

 

Richard Kraft

Hans Zimmer inspired by this post, I created a post addressing some of this.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/556877397821248/permalink/1787835644725411/

Thomas Muething in the case of Hans Zimmer, I believe he has been “buttering up” filmmakers for decades through their passionate love of his scores including RAINMAN, THE LION KING, GLADIATOR, INCEPTION, A LEAGUE OF THEIR OWN, SHERLOCK HOLMES, PIRATES OF THE CARIBBEAN, INTERSTELLAR. THE HOLIDAY, MATCHSTICK MEN, MISSION:IMPOSSIBLE 2, THE THIN RED LINE, AS GOOD AS IT GETS, PACIFIC HEIGHTS, THE HOUSE OF THE SPIRITS, TOYS, BACKDRAFT, THELMA AND LOUISE, GREEN CARD, THE LAST SAMAURI, DAYS OF THUNDER, BLACK RAIN and dozens more.
Have you ever considered the possibly that a number of filmmakers seek him out because they adore what he does and want to work with him for THAT reason?
Have you considered audiences around the globe who have never had a chance to be “fast talked” by Zimmer still adore his music and pack concerts to experience it live?
Have you considered that your own opinion does not necessarily translate into universal truths of what may or may not be “quality”?
Of course you are free to respect whatever you elect. However, it is sometimes helpful to consider that others enjoy and respect different things for different reasons.

Thomas Muething I can enjoy both Korngold’s THE SEA HAWK and Zimmer’s PIRATES OF THE CARIBBEAN. Roza’s THE PRIVATE LIFE OF SHERLOCK HOLMES and Zimmer’s SHERLOCK HOLMES, Alex North’s SPARTACUS and Zimmer’s GLADIATOR, Goldsmith’s TOTAL RECALL and Zimmer’s INCEPTION, Bernard Herrmann’s CAPE FEAR and Zimmer’s PACIFIC HEIGHTS.
To state the obvious. The first films were created by filmmakers and scored stylistically in manners quite different from the later.
I am grateful that I have the openness to love and appreciate films and scores from all eras.

 

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Hans Zimmer

Well, I didn’t get any complains releasing the WW84 demos, which clocked in at an hour and a half... or the X-Men Xperiment album. But I got shit for not releasing all of “Interstellar” or “Thin Red Line”. I think people are quite capable to skip tracks they don’t like, rather than desiring tracks that they can’t get...

 

Mikael Carlsson

Hans Zimmer Since you're here, what is your own preferred approach to score album production? I've done over 500 by now, and very rarely is every minute of a score interesting enough to present out of context. In fact, I can imagine that the demos would sometimes make more purely musical sense. Curious to hear your take on this!

 

Hans Zimmer

Mikael Carlsson , exactly what you wrote...

Sorry, to be a little more precise: I like working with Music Editors and Recording Engineers that come from a production background. Bob Badami, Ryan Rubin, Alan Meyerson and of course Stephen Lipson know a thing or three about record production and how to make a satisfying musical experience happen. We are cautious about making things too long. We’d rather - like we just did with X-Periments and the WW84 sketchbook - release a second cd. Stéphane Humez and Krisztina Lukácsi have been bugging me about Black Hawk Down. Right now I’m sitting in front of nine hours of material, and it’s only a fraction of the back-ups...
But yes, it needs to have shape, style and flow - something you sometimes can’t get out of following the track order. But ultimately- we try to make a good sound-track album...

 

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Conrado Xalabarder

I have the most respect for Hans Zimmer's contribution to filmmaking through music, and some of his works are for diverse reasons milestones in avant-garde use of music, such as Commodus' "musical snake" (with it, he is powerful and dangerous; without it, bleak and unsecure) or Dunkirk's "destroyed, post-bombing music" (the scenary is hell, everything there has been destroyed, even the idea of music) and many others.
But the phrase "You're the gravedigger of quality film music in Hollywood", with which I DO NOT agree, I have read or listened some other times from some other, educated, cultivated, people. And this is a point of view that must not be despised just like that, because it is part of the set of ideas and of the debate.
Nothing new, anyway: ¡Picasso was accused of "killing" painting! By some other genious painters!. Elmer Bernstein told me the "old generation" of Hollywood composers didn't like too much at first his and North's jazz scores. Neorrealism maestro Roberto Rossellini accused Federico Fellini of betraying cinema and proclamed it dead! And a long etc.
I do remember the "panic" for the success of Vangelis' electronic score in the expected old fashioned score for Chariots of Fire...
Neither Picasso, nor North, nor Fellini nor Vangelis have "killed" nothing, they added. They changed. They broaded. And so Mr. Hans Zimmer.
That said, Zimmer has works more and less interesting, as any artist, as well as does Djawadi, Badelt, or any composer, also Junkie XL. They are not "killing" film music, and in fact in the confrontation orchestral vs. electronics, there are SO MANY poor, uninteresting orchestral scores nowadays!!! There are SO MANY bees making the VERY SAME honey right now!!! Or scores for blockbusters that are the very same one from another, and makes it impossible to remember if this music belongs to this "film-ending-with-a-number" or to that other. What puts on risk film music as a form of art is the industry itself, the unbearable pressure against composers (schedules, budgets, producers or executives who think that Bach is a wine brand and feel confident to tell the composer how to do things, and a long etc so well explained in Stephan Eicke's "The Struggle Behind the Soundtrack" book)
No, I do not think Hans Zimmer is gravedigging film music. Not him. But of course quality in music and in the dramaturgy and narrative has plummeted.
I tend to think that Spain, my country, is making in general terms the best film music nowadays. My humble opinion
Sorry for my bad english!

 

Hans Zimmer

Conrado Xalabarder , Thank You! This means a lot. ...and you do have some outstanding composers in your country - some of whom I consider my friends.

 

Andreas Ullrich

Conrado Xalabarder You are so right, especially in the way, spain really has a bunch of great composers, who are allowed to compose with their range of skills. What do You think the spanish film industry is doing different than Hollywood for example? Every time a spanish composer like Roque Banos or Fernando Velasques are doing Hollywood stuff they seemed to be forced sounding as RCP graduates.

 

Hans Zimmer

Andreas Ullrich , do you think Alberto Iglesias sounds like RCP after working here with us? Again - no one is forcing anyone to sound other than themselves- maybe ask Roque or Alberto - both whom I adore...

 

Andreas Ullrich

Hans Zimmer yes I do. But I don't blame You because of that. I think there are a lot of temp tracks with Your or RCP music around all the big studios. And the "big bosses" want that sound for their new project as well. Why does someone like Patrick Doyle sounds pretty much like You or Jablonsky in THOR? I really adore what You havre reached. And I really love some of Your works. But I am very sad about the convenience and the lack of trust in the different styles of original music. I wished music which sounds like You really is composed by You and Iglesias, Doyle and Toprak sound like their original voice. That would be great! And thank You for WW84 and a step back to Your love for choral music! 🤟

 

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Mikael Carlsson

This is a sad read. http://www.movie-wave.net/the-end-of-an-error/

 

Hans Zimmer

Mikael Carlsson , criticism can be devastating. Especially for a critic. But yes, that is a sad read - because I hate seeing anyone’s passion crushed...

 

Anthony Aguilar

Hans Zimmer you are a hero to many of us, myself included, so to see you browbeat and bully powerless people into abandoning a passion has been something of a learning experience (this is not the first time you have attacked film music journalists). You are a celebrity in an elevated position whether you want to admit it or not, and so your words carry weight in our community. You must understand that, right? There is a way to be constructive but your comments to James and others over the years have consistently been of the knee-jerk variety, like a childish emotional outburst filled with the sort of hyperbole I would expect from a 5 year old. You must learn to think about your responses, take time to think about what you're saying. in other words, just be an adult. Even if the person has "said a mean thing", be the better person.
That's just my 2-cents.

 

Hans Zimmer

Anthony Aguilar , your 2-cent are very much heard!
Yes, I know it’s stupid to have an emotional reaction. But composing is a childish, emotional, thing. They don’t call it “Playing Music” for nothing...We composers should be immune or even welcome criticism. Learn from it. Be humbled by it. Be lucky anyone pays attention at all.
And except all that is perceived when so often it is plainly misunderstood...
And I disagree that Mr. Southall is powerless. Words have power (as you yourself have pointed out).
... And who criticizes the critic? Does any composer ever speak out? Where is accusing JXL of sounding amateurish (and admitting to how insulting that sounds) be seen as not deeply hurtful to my friend Tom Holkenborg?
At the end of the day, I don’t want Mr. Southall to loose his passion for reviewing our work. But he must understand that to us composers it’s not just a job, but we put our whole heart and soul into it. And sometimes we all need to tread a little lightly - me included.
So, James, please do what I have to do on a daily basis: rise above the slings and arrows thrown at you. ...and realize that there is power in your words that get under our skin - a skin that’s never quite tough enough.

 

Anthony Aguilar

Hans Zimmer Thank you for your reply. Trust me, I understand it when something you have put your heart and soul into gets criticized. I have had that knee-jerk reaction before. But yes you're right, we must all tread lightly, especially when tensions are high and especially when that thing is a passion for all of us in different ways. We just have to be better; not resorting to callous insults.

 

Krisztina Lukácsi

..I really cannot believe the waste of time on this thread and the nonsense hysteria Mr. Southall created here for one single criticism received from Hans rightfully so. He rushes to rant and playing the martyr - and other people in a not too elegant way on this thread are making screenshots of Hans comments and posting them all over on reddit. Shame !

 

Hans Zimmer

Krisztina Lukácsi , when the Critic becomes Criticized (sorry about the capital letters, Lukas Kendall!) ...
Of course I don’t want Mr. Southall to stop writing. Nor do I want him to carry any hurt. But rather than all this Thermonuclear War my harsh comments have unleashed, I feel that I’d be quite happy to solve it all with a chat over a drink and just get on with life! After all - we seem to have the same interests and passions, albeit from opposite places of the keyboard.
...Do we still live in a world where that is a possible option?

 

Conrado Xalabarder

Hans Zimmer Picasso once said he missed the days of boos and jeers "because they were a sincere expression of truth" and one composer told me once that he had his own doubts of wether the applauses at the end of the concert meant the audience was happy for the music or happy because it ended.
Criticism is part of the whole, disrespect is not, in no way. Criticism MAY contain a perspective that may be interesting to consider. Harsh criticism can be much more respectul than flattery, which is another pandemic in the FB times, but without respect to the person it is not harsh criticism but disrespect, that is a red line.
We all are through difficult times with this covid madness, I hope everything will be ok soon.

 

Hans Zimmer

Conrado Xalabarder , very wise! Thank you!

 

James Southall
I realise now that I wrote words some years ago about Tom Holkenborg that were particularly mean-spirited and unkind. I am ashamed of that and apologise to him unreservedly.
I’ve written about film music for 25 years because it’s my passion, but I’m not talented enough to actually write it so all I can do is write about it. It costs me money to do it and I can say categorically that I’ve never been interested in click bait. Opinions expressed were honestly-held - but sometimes poorly-expressed. So, really, sorry to Tom (in the very unlikely event he is reading).

 

Erik Woods

James Southall Amazing that you are the first one to apologize, James. You didn't have to but what you just wrote takes guts. I hope the other party will do the same.

 

James Southall

Erik Woods I was definitely in the wrong so no guts needed to apologise! I was probably trying to be witty at the time and ended up being shitty instead.

 

Hans Zimmer

James Southall , I really feel sorry for making you the target of my wrath. It was - as all these things are - uncalled for ...no excuse, and even this next explanation is not meant to be read to distract from my bad choice of words: But I am truly sick and tired about the way people perceive my friend JunkieXL. Or Lorne Balfe. They have truly their own voices, paid their dues and I think deserve respect and informed understanding of how and why they are writing what they are writing. In other words - they are originals with sensitive souls and their muse is easily extinguished by the power of words - not all that different from the feeling you seem to have come away with after my outburst. Especially in (and I can not go into the true background here) how JXL was treated in the first “Justice League” iteration. But surely even you must have gotten a whiff of that bad odor...That - and after that chap Thomas Something-or-other called him and me hacks... (I did like the “Satan” thing, though... 🙂 ) an explosion was bound to happen.
But either me, Rcp - which is consistently attacked and misunderstood and I believe helped in someways forge the way for some truly great composers like Harry Gregson-Williams, John Powell, Ben Wallfisch, Lorne Balfe, Heitor Pereira, Henry Jackman, etc.etc, etc... are constantly criticized for either our style or our lack of style and old fashioned academic knowledge. Without any single critic (except probably Daniel Schweiger) actually having inside knowledge of what, how, and why we do what we do...And I mean it: I’m happy to answer any question in person over a good glass of wine...
I’ve done literally hundreds of press junkets in London - geographically close to you - but never known for you to turn up and actually be part of the conversation. (Maybe I have a flawed memory here. Pressjunkets are dehumanizing meat-grinders. You don’t remember a thing when they are over...) So, even in the good reviews, I always felt there was an element missing of a deep understanding of the true “why” of the choices being made. I truly believe a critic’s job is to dig beyond the surface, to find the cultural connections to the zeitgeist and the motives driving the work being discussed. Otherwise it’s just an opinion piece - no different from the opinions formed by any listener.
Daniel is wrong when he says that no critic wrote a good score. I believe Michael Nyman was the music critic for “The Times” and was challenged to put his pen where his mouth is...and he is a damn good writer.
So, James, what’s it going to be? Silence forever or a chance at dialogue?

 

Rick Clark

Sounds like a group hug is in order

 

Erik Woods

I really do hope you two, James and Hans, can connect. That would be the best for all of us because right now, the vitriol surrounding this is getting uglier by the minute. I mean, even the producer of the Justice League film is laughing and bullying James on Twitter. Is this what we wanted all of this to come to?
I understand that people were hurt here. The only way this gets better is if we are ALL kinder to each other. Now, I'm no saint. I've said some awful things in the past but I hope to continue to grow in the future to be a better person; a more open-minded person. This is something we all can strive for because the lack of empathy in this thread and elsewhere is truly sad.
Also, I think we all need to put our filters on before lashing out as someone on social media. You have no idea if that person you are responding to is in a good spot, having a bad day, etc. And that goes both ways. We are all human, we all have feelings.
Having said that, the last thing I want James to do here is change who he is... meaning is opinions. That last thing I want to read in a future review is something disingenuous. If he doesn't like a score, then he doesn't like a score and he will tell us why. That's his opinion. If you disagree, then let him know, but don't be an ass about it. Those are *his* opinions. I think we can all agree that the last thing we want from ANY reviewer or critic is to be fraudulent.
On the flip side, I hope that when a composer sees a review that they don't agree with that they reach out to the writer privately, offer their opinion, maybe give him/her some facts that he/she might have missed and let the reviewer admen the review. And if what Hans says is true, then I hope the invitation to contact him to get some context about the creation of a score is open to all reviewers, critics and journalists. If so, that's very kind of you, Hans.
As Rick said above, I think a group hug is in order. We have to move past this and start fresh. Let's be better to one another.

 

James Southall

Hans Zimmer dialogue is always the preferred approach! I don’t think I am important enough to warrant a spot at a press junket... but would certainly gate crash one for a good chat and a good drink, when the world starts turning again after COVID.

 

Hans Zimmer

James Southall , I’m happy to make sure you’re invited... for whatever films are stacking up like ‘planes overhead.

 

Hans Zimmer

Erik Woods , open dialogue has always been part of it. Why do you think I’m here?

 

Erik Woods

Hans Zimmer It's tough to know because some composers are private but if you are truly offering to educate us that's fantastic! As you said, the framework of RCP and the way *you* write music and create a film score is grossly misunderstood and that leads to falsehoods, which leads to negative hyperbolic statements, etc. A look inside the hood of what you do and RCP as a whole would be utterly fascinating!
Having said that, thanks for opening your doors to us.

 

Yavar Joseph Moradi

Hans I am very glad to see what both you and James have written here, and I confess I would love to be a fly on the wall if you two ever get together and talk about your shared appreciation for (obsession with?) Ennio Morricone.
That said, I wonder if you might consider saying something to your less classy fans on Twitter... this is getting pretty ugly: 

https://twitter.com/RequiemNocturn/status/1368708886656675845

 

James Southall

Yavar Joseph Moradi the person who posted that tweet claims to be the associate producer of the new version of Justice League. I’m hoping he just made that up. And sadly that is just one of many similar things. It is easy to see how things spiral out of control for young people on social media. I am scared what it will be like when my daughter is old enough to use it.

 

Hans Zimmer

Yavar Joseph Moradi ... I have no idea who that is...

 

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Lukas Kendall

When I got chewed out by Hans it was in the old days when you did those things in person. You guys are lucky, I think I breathed a pack worth of secondhand smoke!

 

Hans Zimmer

Lukas Kendall , I quit!! But Lukas - you understand what I mean? You’ve learned over the years to be more sensitive in your critiques?

 

Lukas Kendall

Hans Zimmer of course! Ps as I write this we are watching the kids’ elementary school talent show YouTube premiere and some little girl is playing Pirates of the Caribbean on violin.

 

Robert Folk

Hans Zimmer Hans .. I’m just thankful that Lukas has stopped calling me out for using
Capital Letters in
mid sentence purely for Emphasis. This was so much more hurtful than any negative comments he may have ever made about my music. Thank God he’s calmed down by this time. HeHe. 🌈

 

Hans Zimmer

Robert Folk ,Oops! I just did it! I used Capital Letters to Emphasize a point... Lukas Kendall, I am haunted by the guilt...

 

Robert Folk

Hans Zimmer The Guilt Hans! ... it’s Never Ending!! 💜

 

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Daniel Schweiger

In all frankness, it's pretty stupid to ditch one's critical career over this. I myself have been on the end of some big composers' blistering receptions to my work. And while not fun, it didn't stop me from writing. A common thing with any criticism is that it's always a one-sided street where the person doesn't expect the person (or person's they're supporting) to respond. Basically, if one is dishing it out, they've got to take it, even if the response is an atom bomb as opposed to the firecracker that was thrown. Sorry to see James take a break. I truly wish he wouldn't. But on that note, also be prepared for responses in the future. That is basically why I keep it positive for greatly the most part about what I write about composers in reviews or social media. Believe me it's not fun to have someone you respect not respond in kind, which is why I don't put myself in that position. The anger that Trump has slammed into us (and we're still not coming out of anytime soon) and corona (made even worse by now relentless FB vaccine selfies) has created a toxicity beyond belief - especially in full-on criticism and fandom which has long gone after its composing targets with a smirking sense of impunity, though I don't think James' response even began to rise to that level of that troll on this thread. As far as music goes, I'm a more the merrier kind of guy, which makes it ironic given that toxic music fandom spends a great deal of time demanding every note.

 

Mikael Carlsson

Daniel Schweiger Thanks for your interesting input. This puts the whole role of the critic at the center of the discussion. My thoughts on this: What's the point of being engaged in, and maybe even paid for, reviewing if you're only going to keep it positive, to avoid the nocturnal rage of composers or even worse, maybe risk your own position in the industry?
I'm asking a little from the angle of my "position" as the honorary president of the IFMCA, which I once formed. Today, there are not many reviewers left who write on a regular basis. I quit writing reviews myself 16 years ago when I launched my film music label as I knew it would put me in a strange position.
In my opinion, we need more serious critique in the style of Conrado Xalabarder, who is not afraid of delivering a "bad" review but always have very well thought out reasoning behind the verdict. A well written review will point out both the merits and the shortcomings of a work, and can ultimately lead to a healthy discussion on the art we all love. Also, it's worth pointing out that a composer is rarely singularly responsible for the ingenuity of a score, nor is he/she singularly responsible for choices made that are perhaps less impressive.

 

Daniel Schweiger

Good questions Mikael. First off, thanks to the plague and what's it wrought on the web, I am no longer getting paid for any content that I do, but keep going thanks to many awesome people who host and enable my content for free. But even when I was, I work doing temp tracking, which would put me in an far more awkward position in my actual "industry" when dealing with composers on a truly professional basis. So it's all about the love of music to me, and it's essential to keep on top of what's out there for what I do. In any case, I've always subscribed to the Woody Allen theory of "those who can't teach." Meaning that in general criticism, while some once full-on critics like Paul Schrader and Peter Bogdonovich have gone on to do substantial work, many can't hack it. Pauline Kael, a huge influence on me, but a truly horrendous person who slung out some truly vile personal s**t at people (some of whom thankfully gave it right back to her), was a failed playwright who bombed out at her time at Paramount. And the oh-so venerated Roger Ebert wrote one of the worst films of all time. So who am I, having never made a film, to tell those who actually pulled it off for better and worse, that they suck as a critic (I mean, do any get paid any more?) In all frankness, it's pretty stupid. I myself have been on the end of some composers' blistering receptions to my work. And while not fun, it didn't stop me from writing. A common thing with any criticism is that it's always a one-sided street where the person doesn't expect the person (or person's they're supporting) to respond. Basically, if one is dishing it out, they've got to take it, even if the response is an atom bomb as opposed to the firecracker that was thrown. Sorry to see James take a break. I truly wish he wouldn't. But on that note, also be prepared for responses in the future. That is basically why I keep it positive for greatly the most part about what I write about composers in reviews or social media. Believe me it's not fun to have someone you respect not respond in kind, which is why I don't put myself in that position. The anger that Trump has slammed into us (and we're still not coming out of anytime soon) and corona (made even worse by now relentless FB vaccine selfies) has created a toxicity beyond belief - especially in full-on criticism and fandom which has long gone after its composing targets, though I don't think James' response even began to rise to that level of some other incredible trolls on Mikael's original thread. So I've always chosen to keep it positive (though certainly not on FB), as I can't composer worth a darn, but love music. And that's my legit choice. I am unaware of any full-on score critic who's written a soundtrack that's gotten any mass notice (forgive that lack of knowledge if I'm wrong), so again, in a medium where many critics and most fans (especially toxic ones) are completely unaware of the pressures or creative decisions, I choose to talk about music that I think people should hear, which I think is far more positive (and likely one of the few positive things in my outlook in general) that can hopefully help careers and give people a listen they enjoy. If you want to be a "real" critic, then you've got to have the hide to take what you dish out, and not run away at the first sign of blowback. I might not a fan of the DC superhero films that go for a pulverizingly nihilistic tone (excepting the brilliant Watchmen and V for Vendetta), but I for one am looking forward to hearing Junkie's four hours for a redone JLA movie that I actually thought was fun to begin with, and am hoping doesn't become an expanded exercise in bleakness. Sure there are some soundtracks where less is more, but often more is better in my opinion

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Zzzzzzzzz.....

[Edmilson 7,388]

We should hire some screenwriter to adapt the Facebook thread into a movie. Steven Spielberg can direct and Williams will score it:

 

1. "Elegy for James Southall"

2. "Hans Zimmer's theme"

3. "The trolling scene"

etc

[bollemanneke 3,337]

thanks for sharing the conversation, but I lost interest after two minutes. Why does he even join this social media sandbox? Jesus, let fans chat amongst themselves.

[Jay 37,287]

20 minutes ago, bollemanneke said:

Why does he even join this social media sandbox?

 

covid boredom?

[bollemanneke 3,337]

Well, I guess, but it's so unprofessional, especially now that we're living in an age where every letter anyone posts can have insane consequences.

[Jay 37,287]

The human brain is not evolving as fast as leaps in technology are giving us platforms where once internal thoughts can be made instantly available to many others

[Jurassic Shark 12,028]

At least not HanZ'.

[Edmilson 7,388]

I think it's a little pathetic when a public figure is checking what people are saying about him/her on social media, and decides to "answer" the haters.

 

We have a saying here that basically states: Not even Jesus Christ managed to please everybody. I mean, He is the Son of God and still people crucified Him. So, if even Jesus had His haters, why don't Zimmer can't accept that there is people that don't like his music?

[Jurassic Shark 12,028]

Because he's not Jesus?

[Jay 37,287]

8 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

why don't Zimmer can't accept that there is people that don't like his music?

 

He wasn't defending his music.  He was defending Junkie XL's

[Edmilson 7,388]

4 minutes ago, Jay said:

He wasn't defending his music.  He was defending Junkie XL's

 

My point still stands. Zimmer has a problem accepting that some fans don't like his music, or the music of his associates. 

[Jay 37,287]

Up above, when Zimmer said this: "And who criticizes the critic? Does any composer ever speak out? Where is accusing JXL of sounding amateurish (and admitting to how insulting that sounds) be seen as not deeply hurtful to my friend Tom Holkenborg?"

 

He was harkening back to this Southall review from 2016: https://web.archive.org/web/20201124070112/http://www.movie-wave.net/deadpool/

 

Quote

The score is soulless and colourless,: the incessant obnoxious noise-filled action cues are entirely generic and the occasional attempts to do something different or emotional sound like they could be from a low-budget daytime tv show.  I don’t get it, I really don’t: it goes all over the place, lacks any cohesion, the only real “concept” behind it seems to have been “wouldn’t it be cool if we recreated the synth sound from Michael Jackson’s Beat It?” (answer: not if you do it like this) – how could something which sounds frankly as amateurish (and I know how insulting that word is and how unqualified I am to use it) as this end up in a major 2016 film?  That’s no personal slight against the composer, who I’m sure did his best, but it’s depressing really; still, focus on the positives: after the last track of score, on comes George Michael’s “Careless Whisper” and I can honestly say there is nobody in history who will ever have been more relieved to hear that song.

 

[Jurassic Shark 12,028]

1 hour ago, Jay said:

Well Mikael Carlsson accepted my friend request, so I can now bring you the entire text of the entire conversation - or rather, any parts Zimmer and/or Southall participated in (and a David Arnold bit for good fun).

 

No idea why none of you with access were willing to do this for us after repeated requests, but at least I can get the job done now

 

The first rule of Mikael Carlsson's Facebook wall is that you don't speak about Mikael Carlsson's Facebook wall.

[Bilbo 3,709]

48 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

I think it's a little pathetic when a public figure is checking what are people saying about him/her on social media, and decides to "answer" the haters.

 

We have a saying here that basically states: Not even Jesus Christ managed to please everybody. I mean, He is the Son of God and still people crucified Him. So, if even Jesus had His haters, why don't Zimmer can't accept that there is people that don't like his music?

Lorne Balfe searches his own name on twitter for sure. It’s sad. 

[bollemanneke 3,337]

1 hour ago, Jay said:

The human brain is not evolving as fast as leaps in technology are giving us platforms where once internal thoughts can be made instantly available to many others

One's. Sorry, couldn't resist.

[Jay 37,287]

No, I meant once.

[Lord Zimmer 211]

Quote

All music is created by musical instruments reflecting the technology of their time and a composer must master their language. I’d call those that are ignorant of the tools available to them in a modern film-score hacks and the luddites that opine an old narrow view of what ‘proper’ film music is just narrow minded fools that need to widen their gaze or they will never have the pleasure of experiencing the new...

 

John Williams a hack. 

[TSMefford 1,509]

Thanks for finally sharing the full conversation @Jay I had no clue where to find it. 

[Jurassic Shark 12,028]

Apparently, it's on the internet.

[KK 3,307]

Thanks for sharing Jay!

 

Jeez, the whole thing seems enormously hyperbolic in perspective. 
 

Seems like the two came to an understanding, and Zimmer carried his ground pretty well. But it’s sort of like trying argue your case in a YouTube comments section...what’s the point?

[TSMefford 1,509]

There is nothing wrong with having an opinion or expectations on creative works, even if those thoughts are negative. You will never please everyone and the second you start striving for that, your art will diminish in quality. It's just something you have to except as a creative person. Some people will love it and some will absolutely hate it, especially in this day and age of such extreme divisiveness. 

 

You can't help but have these feelings of expectation as a human being. I do think we need to keep an open mind about Junkie's score and only judge based on what we actually hear, but as with the film, I do find that have certain expectations or a lack thereof. I can't help it, but I try my best to remind myself that I haven't properly seen or heard the final product. I will reserve final judgement until I actually see and hear the damn thing, but after that I think it free reign to an extent. If things don't sit well then they just don't. I can't force myself to like something.

 

However, I don't think saying "I doubt this is the best film score ever." warranted such a response from Zimmer, whether defending Junkie or himself, but that's just me. He could've simply left it at "How about you wait until you've heard it?" sort of comment or something, but perhaps the divisive nature of the scores from him and his colleges are getting to him. I don't know, but I totally understand that. I mean some people call him the "god" of film music (an actual thing I've heard) while others revile everything he works on. I can imagine that that could get frustrating, especially if you're so emotionally attached to the work you create like he says. 

 

In the end, it's all subjective. I have a lot of trouble personally trying to keep myself in check when it comes to expectations and what not, but I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with having those expectations.

 

It just seems like everyone got a little too charged and began insulting each other's work and that's not a productive time. I don't really know what else to say about this. That's my rambling response.

[publicist 4,643]

 

To put things in perspective: the mountain laboured and brought forth a mouse. 

[TSMefford 1,509]

9 minutes ago, publicist said:

 

To put things in perspective: the mountain laboured and brought forth a mouse. 

 

I certainly don't hate that track. My main complaint is, and this is an issue I have with a lot of modern scores and not exclusive to Junkie or Zimmer, the compression just diminishes a lot of power once those big drums come in and pushes everything so much closer together. It doesn't feel as big as I know it could. My other issue is that I can tell there is a theme happening here, but I can't quite fully pick up on it or recall it.

 

On the plus side, It does seem more heroic than I was expecting and it has a cool vibe to it. It reminds me a bit of some of the epic trailer music from the late 2000s that I listened to.

[Jay 37,287]

25 minutes ago, TSMefford said:

That's my rambling response.

 

Fits your avatar

[TSMefford 1,509]

15 minutes ago, Jay said:

 

Fits your avatar

 

Indeed it does.

[publicist 4,643]

19 minutes ago, TSMefford said:

It reminds me a bit of some of the epic trailer music from the late 2000s that I listened to.

 

More doesn't need to be said.

[TSMefford 1,509]

Just now, publicist said:

 

More doesn't need to be said.

 

I mean. Many look down on that kind of music, but I enjoyed quite a bit of it. It may not be the most prestigious music, but it gets a blood flowing and is fun to listen to. My reason for the comparison is that I find things just absolutely brash in something like Man of Steel when it gets big. This still has something more heroic and enjoyable, like that trailer music did. I meant it in a more positive way, but I can see the other point you're making.

[KK 3,307]

1 hour ago, publicist said:

 

To put things in perspective: the mountain laboured and brought forth a mouse. 

 

Yea...I'll pass.

[publicist 4,643]

51 minutes ago, TSMefford said:

 

I mean. Many look down on that kind of music, but I enjoyed quite a bit of it. It may not be the most prestigious music, but it gets a blood flowing and is fun to listen to. My reason for the comparison is that I find things just absolutely brash in something like Man of Steel when it gets big. This still has something more heroic and enjoyable, like that trailer music did. I meant it in a more positive way, but I can see the other point you're making.

 

4 hours of it!

[Jurassic Shark 12,028]

There's a reason trailers aren't four hours long!

[TSMefford 1,509]

3 minutes ago, publicist said:

 

4 hours of it!

 

Lol. I mean fair enough. Judging by the other track released, in seems there will be breaks in the pounding epicness.

[Edmilson 7,388]

I also fear listening to those Fury Road-style violent drums for 4 hours, but apparently Junkie managed to learn something about film music with Conrad Pope on the last few years, so I'll give the album a try when it comes out. Probably I'll edit it to a nice 60-80 minute presentation.

[TSMefford 1,509]

I certainly am not going to complain one way or the other about it getting a four hour presentation. Whether I like it or not.

 

This is what we ask for time and time again with these Expanded or Complete releases. So, I absolutely support this getting a four hour release. My only thing is: I'd like other scores to get this treatment upon release as well or at least in addition to an additional Album. I suppose I can't help but think: Why this score or not others? Oh well.

 

Again. I'm happy to see a complete (I assume) release right off the bat. I'll be curious to see what people come up with for cutdown Album presentations too

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

That post needs a late 90s style Varese edit.

[bruce marshall 1,315]

Poor James.😉

No composer ever bashed ME on social media.

Composers 💘 ME 😊

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ujMSjXiRpOI

[bruce marshall 1,315]

8 hours ago, Edmilson said:

...Apparently Junkie managed to learn something about film music with Conrad Pope on the last few years, so I'll give the album a try

 

Pope is a great orchestrator.

Check.out his work for Desplat on RISE OF THE GUARDIANS.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

2 minutes ago, bruce marshall said:

 

Pope is a great orchestrator.

Check.out his work for Desplat on RISE OF THE GUARDIANS.

 

Was that the owl movie?

[bruce marshall 1,315]

God no! Snyder at his worst.

that's LEGENDS.

I get them mixed up also!

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Rise of the Legends?

[bruce marshall 1,315]

Now I'm really confused

Can someone produce a concise summary of that conversation .

😎

[publicist 4,643]

13 hours ago, KK said:

Seems like the two came to an understanding, and Zimmer carried his ground pretty well.

 

What Zimmer did what was to moan Southall into censoring a few harmless reviews, that probably criticized said musical creations all too well. In retrospect, a perfect fit for the age of woke and Twitter outrages.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

10 minutes ago, publicist said:

 

What Zimmer did what was to moan Southall into censoring a few harmless reviews, that probably criticized said musical creations all too well. In retrospect, a perfect fit for the age of woke and Twitter outrages.

 

So besides being an hysterical bitch in social media websites, what's the worst Zimmer could have done to Southall? Could he have potentially escalated this to a defamation case in a judicial setting against Southall's critical reviews?

[bruce marshall 1,315]

I wish Hans would take down Kendall and the reactionary, snarky boobs who write for FSM.

[publicist 4,643]

Zimmer seems to be a shamer, look at my creative pals that were done wrong! His old german arch enemy Muething (from our own german FB group) engaged Zimmer in a real ugly catfight in this thread over his 'hack empire', and as unwelcome such display of open hatred may appear, he got much closer to the heart of the matter, namely that Zimmer is a good salesman and his commercial appeal all too easy mistaken for boundless creativity.

[Thor 7,465]

8 minutes ago, publicist said:

Zimmer seems to be a shamer, look at my creative pals that were done wrong! His old german arch enemy Muething (from our own german FB group) engaged Zimmer in a real ugly catfight in this thread over his 'hack empire', and as unwelcome such display of open hatred may appear, he got much closer to the heart of the matter, namely that Zimmer is a good salesman and his commercial appeal all too easy mistaken for boundless creativity.

 

Muething's mad ramblings in that Facebook thread were more disgusting than anything Zimmer wrote in relation to James.

[bruce marshall 1,315]

1 minute ago, Thor said:

 

Muething's mad ramblings in that Facebook thread were more disgusting than anything Zimmer wrote in relation to James.

Thor, let it go.

Let the haters rant.

You're Better than them😊

[bollemanneke 3,337]

2 hours ago, publicist said:

 

What Zimmer did what was to moan Southall into censoring a few harmless reviews, that probably criticized said musical creations all too well. In retrospect, a perfect fit for the age of woke and Twitter outrages.

Can yo uelaborate? What did James take down? That's still a disgusting outcome. I'll be more critical of HZ from now on.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

He sucks!