"Advice" from Ep. 9 Appreciation

[Falstaft 2,132]

Another week, another great cue from The Rise of Skywalker to talk about. Since a lot of what we've been celebrating in this score has been its leitmotivic richness, I thought I'd change things up and offer a piece that is pretty athematic on the surface: the FYC track "Advice" (or, probably more properly, 7m8 "Father Knows Best").

 

 

I don't have a whole lot to say about this sequence, other than it strikes me as very effective, more so because Williams avoids any too on-the-nose statement of Kylo Ren's themes here. There's a few other cues in SW that feature this sort of two-voice counterpoint in high strings ("Death of Dooku" comes to mind), but this is the most poignant. The closest comparison I can draw is with the similarly evocative, sad "Watching the Eclipse" from Angela's Ashes. There's no direct reference to "Torn Apart," to my ears, but the harmonic language in m. 16 does venture into similar harmonic territory).

Instead of further analysis, I thought I'd offer a transcription of the stringy part, before the orchestra swells and Kylo/Ben tosses his saber. (Alas, this one's by ear and thus prone to inaccuracy, esp. in rhythm -- no score leaks for this one unfortunately AFAIK...)

 

[The Illustrious Jerry 3,356]

This is probably one of my favourite cues from the score, and written for one of the few scenes I actually liked no less! Every note, every little nuance feels so precise here: the haunting, almost ethereal string counterpoint that you mention (similar yet different compared to, say, Torn Apart from TFA, which it kind of mirrors), a very brief Anthem of Evil quote, and then the brass come to the front at the end and it is HEAVY. Reminds me of something out Revenge of the Sith, perhaps Padme's Funeral or Lament. That deep brass sound really hit when I first I heard this, it's hard to describe what it does for me exactly. 

 

It's a short cue that may fly under the radar for most folks, but it's indeed quite effective and, as you say, it restrains itself from using Kylo Ren's theme, which was the right call. Excellent analysis once again @Falstaft! I'd be curious to read what you have to say about a cue like Fleeing from Kijimi in the future as I think that has a bunch of neat stuff going in. Thumbs up!

 

EDIT: Is there any connection between the horn section that I mentioned and the brief horn line at 3:19 of Farewell?

 

 

[Yannick 40]

Nice analysis, Frank! This track always goes unnoticed after Healing Wounds while I'm listening the FYC album. Anyway, I think it works great with the footage

 

 

And just like with Han's death, there's some silence to start the conversation and then the music shows up. Would have loved to hear a Torn Apart reference, but both are gorgeous, light, soft and soulful pieces of music.

 

9 minutes ago, The Illustrious Jerry said:

a very brief Anthem of Evil quote

 

And a great use of it! Just when the lightsaber is shown, like the last bit of evilness in Ben. Not even his theme.

 

10 minutes ago, The Illustrious Jerry said:

 

EDIT: Is there any connection between the horn section that I mentioned and the brief horn line at 3:19 of Farewell?

 

I always thought that's a version of The Rise Of Skywalker theme but not sure tbh.

[Fabulin 3,510]

I think there is an arc going through Advice towards Farewell, which starts in Healing Wounds.

In Healing Wounds we also have the strings use and the solemn brass chorale - at first in the context of Kylo being healed and the "taking hand" dialogue - and also a swell that foreshadows the kiss in Farewell; then the second time, in Advice such orchestration describes Kylo Ren's change of heart (responsibility?) and his decision to act heroically from then on and "get the girl", which culminates in Farewell, when Ben both presents himself changed, and repays a life's debt. What follows, in 3:43, is like a transition from the "decision" figure into something more in line with the "Rise of Skywalker" theme.

 

Neat how the general orchestrational choices seem to form a thread continuity across the three tracks.

 

 

[Ludwig 1,120]

Great track!

 

I took a crack at analyzing this overtop of @Falstaft's excellent transcription. Williams actually de-composes Anthem of Evil for the first half of the passage, as Kylo is deciding whether or not to give up his evil ways. It's done by passing the main developments of the theme from melody to bass and back to melody (the solid square brackets). There are smaller developments of the theme as well at the same time - shown in dotted brackets. This is just too good!

 

When Kylo says "I know what I have to do but I don't know if I have the strength to do it", then we get a new motive (unrelated to other themes as far as I can tell) that is passed between the upper voices - a more positive, upward-striving motive. I see this as a musical representation of him giving up the evil and striving to climb out of the emotional hole he's dug himself into as Kylo.

 

The developments of the Anthem of Evil, though, are pretty subtle and reward careful listening. It also leads nicely into the more obvious Anthem of Evil references just before the brass come in, making the cue really hang together well. To me, these are part of what makes this score top-notch and a great final musical entry in the saga, even as Williams is in his late 80s!

[BrotherSound 2,242]

2 hours ago, Falstaft said:

the FYC track "Advice" (or, probably more properly, 6m20 "Sabre Toss").

 

Since I’ve spent too much time poring over that November 11th cue list, let me just say that ‘Advice’ appears to be 7M8 Father Knows Best, and 6M20 Sabre Toss is instead for Rey on Ahch-To tossing the saber into the fire. Most likely an insert, but could also be a revised cue that’s only partially used.

 

2 hours ago, Falstaft said:

There's a few other cues in SW that feature this sort of two-voice counterpoint in high strings ("Death of Dooku" comes to mind), but this is the most poignant.

Also reminds me of “Ben Creeps Around” and a few War of the Worlds cues that also feature similar high, spare, string writing, without vibrato.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

7 hours ago, Ludwig said:

Great track!

 

I took a crack at analyzing this overtop of @Falstaft's excellent transcription. Williams actually de-composes Anthem of Evil for the first half of the passage, as Kylo is deciding whether or not to give up his evil ways. It's done by passing the main developments of the theme from melody to bass and back to melody (the solid square brackets). There are smaller developments of the theme as well at the same time - shown in dotted brackets. This is just too good!

 

When Kylo says "I know what I have to do but I don't know if I have the strength to do it", then we get a new motive (unrelated to other themes as far as I can tell) that is passed between the upper voices - a more positive, upward-striving motive. I see this as a musical representation of him giving up the evil and striving to climb out of the emotional hole he's dug himself into as Kylo.

 

The developments of the Anthem of Evil, though, are pretty subtle and reward careful listening. It also leads nicely into the more obvious Anthem of Evil references just before the brass come in, making the cue really hang together well. To me, these are part of what makes this score top-notch and a great final musical entry in the saga, even as Williams is in his late 80s!

This is why I come to JWFan, for little treats like this. I had not noticed this at all previously but I can hear it clear as day now.

 

Thank you @Ludwig and thank you @Falstaft!

[Nick Parker 3,040]

7 hours ago, BrotherSound said:

Also reminds me of “Ben Creeps Around” and a few War of the Worlds cues that also feature similar high, spare, string writing, without vibrato.

 

Yeah, he loved this stuff in the 2000's  you hear it in AI, Revenge of the Sith (and for some reason I'm thinking Return of the Jedi with something Emperor related but I don't remember the track).

[Falstaft 2,132]

13 hours ago, Ludwig said:

The developments of the Anthem of Evil, though, are pretty subtle and reward careful listening. It also leads nicely into the more obvious Anthem of Evil references just before the brass come in, making the cue really hang together well. To me, these are part of what makes this score top-notch and a great final musical entry in the saga, even as Williams is in his late 80s!

 

 

Wow, fantastic analysis @Ludwig.

 

I was so focused on getting the notes right, measure by measure, that I missed these subtle developments of the Psalm of the Sith theme (I still prefer that label to Anthem of Evil! ). The motivic manipulations you've revealed remind me a bit of what Charles Leinberger calls the "micro-cell" technique in Morricone's writing. Not something we normally associate with Williams, but perhaps we should. It's quite impressive here. And, in a way, the concealed allusions to the Psalm of the Sith in this cue make for a great preparation of the next sequence, in which Kijimi is destroyed where we get the boldest statement of the leitmotif in the score.

 

13 hours ago, BrotherSound said:

Since I’ve spent too much time poring over that November 11th cue list, let me just say that ‘Advice’ appears to be 7M8 Father Knows Best, and 6M20 Sabre Toss is instead for Rey on Ahch-To tossing the saber into the fire. Most likely an insert, but could also be a revised cue that’s only partially used.

.

Fixed! It didn't occur to me until now that there were two back-to-back saber tosses in this movie...

 

14 hours ago, Fabulin said:

I think there is an arc going through Advice towards Farewell, which starts in Healing Wounds...

 

Neat how the general orchestrational choices seem to form a thread continuity across the three tracks.

 

I think that's absolutely right, and it's closely associated with Ben Solo's redemption throughout. Well-spotted, @Fabulin!

[karelm 2,903]

Wow, that was really gorgeous!  And I guarantee it would go by unnoticed if I was listening to the album as being too simplistic but sometimes just hearing something in isolation allows it to reveal its beauty in a new way.

[Yannick 40]

15 hours ago, Ludwig said:

Great track!

 

I took a crack at analyzing this overtop of @Falstaft's excellent transcription. Williams actually de-composes Anthem of Evil for the first half of the passage, as Kylo is deciding whether or not to give up his evil ways. It's done by passing the main developments of the theme from melody to bass and back to melody (the solid square brackets). There are smaller developments of the theme as well at the same time - shown in dotted brackets. This is just too good!

 

When Kylo says "I know what I have to do but I don't know if I have the strength to do it", then we get a new motive (unrelated to other themes as far as I can tell) that is passed between the upper voices - a more positive, upward-striving motive. I see this as a musical representation of him giving up the evil and striving to climb out of the emotional hole he's dug himself into as Kylo.

 

The developments of the Anthem of Evil, though, are pretty subtle and reward careful listening. It also leads nicely into the more obvious Anthem of Evil references just before the brass come in, making the cue really hang together well. To me, these are part of what makes this score top-notch and a great final musical entry in the saga, even as Williams is in his late 80s!

 

This looks an amazing detail but I have to ask something because I consider myself a music analphabet. AFAIK a development is a transformation of an original idea, but that solid squad bracket section doesn't look like the Anthem of Evil motive at all to me:

 

 

 

What should I see/hear here? I'm not sure haha.

 

Sorry for the dumb question and thanks for sharing this! I'm learning a lot reading this forum 

[Ludwig 1,120]

56 minutes ago, Yannick said:

This looks an amazing detail but I have to ask something because I consider myself a music analphabet. AFAIK a development is a transformation of an original idea, but that solid squad bracket section doesn't look like the Anthem of Evil motive at all to me:

 

 

 

What should I see/hear here? I'm not sure haha.

 

Sorry for the dumb question and thanks for sharing this! I'm learning a lot reading this forum 

 

It's a thematic transformation (that's a proper term) rather than a straightforward thematic statement, meaning that it's been significantly altered, so it's going to sound different, to the point where you could easily miss it if you're not exactly listening for it. As @Falstaft pointed out, it's unusual for Williams to work this way, and I would agree, especially in Star Wars, where references to themes are usually made abundantly clear.

 

But here's what I mean by the thematic transformation (or development, as I called it in the analysis). In "Advice", the original rhythm has been stripped away, the harmony is entirely different, and the tempo is slowed way down. BUT the intervals and contour (melodic shape) are much the same, so it retains some fundamental aspects of the original and is still recognizable. See below. The square bracketed sections all do this kind of thing. I show the original transposed to the same note as "Advice" for comparison.

 

 

 

 

Hope that makes things clearer!

[Yannick 40]

1 hour ago, Ludwig said:

 

It's a thematic transformation (that's a proper term) rather than a straightforward thematic statement, meaning that it's been significantly altered, so it's going to sound different, to the point where you could easily miss it if you're not exactly listening for it. As @Falstaft pointed out, it's unusual for Williams to work this way, and I would agree, especially in Star Wars, where references to themes are usually made abundantly clear.

 

But here's what I mean by the thematic transformation (or development, as I called it in the analysis). In "Advice", the original rhythm has been stripped away, the harmony is entirely different, and the tempo is slowed way down. BUT the intervals and contour (melodic shape) are much the same, so it retains some fundamental aspects of the original and is still recognizable. See below. The square bracketed sections all do this kind of thing. I show the original transposed to the same note as "Advice" for comparison.

 

 

 

 

Hope that makes things clearer!

 

Wow! Now I absolutely can understand what you mean! It's pretty incredible you guys are able to find this kind of little subtle details. As just a SW fan, I'm amazed of your skills 

 

And yes, as you've said, SW references use to be way more clear for guys like me (super casual listeners) so this is very high level! 

 

Thanks for the explanation and for sharing this knowledge. Is super nice to learn this kind of things.

[Fancyarcher 350]

It really is an incredibly rich cue. I love how it starts silently, and then builds to the sudden slight feeling of dread and drama. I appreciated it so much more after listening to it on its own several times on the CD too. Just one of those great touches that Williams generally brings to his work. Great analysis too. 

[Jack Gatehouse 0]

it looks very cool, I've always liked it