---

[JW Fan 1]

---

[MaxTheHouseelf 324]

 Have a look at 3:00

[Thor 7,452]

Interesting response, what he says about "two summers" with Tedesco. I always assumed Tedesco was a teacher at UCLA, and that it was an on-campus thing, but after reading some more about him, and seeing the biopic THE MAESTRO (2018), I've come to understand it was exclusively private tutoring. We're probably talking the summers of 1950 and 1951, a concurrent afternoon activity while Williams was at UCLA. 

[JW Fan 1]

---

 

[Thor 7,452]

2 hours ago, JW Fan said:

I don't think that was while he was at UCLA which was no more than a year or so.

 

No, Williams has a full bachelor's degree from UCLA (if applied to contemporary standards). It's true he was only on-campus for a year (most likely the fall of 1950 and the spring of 1951), but he resumed and completed long-distance studies while in the air force, becoming UCLA 'alumnus of 1953'.

[Steve 589]

2 minutes ago, Thor said:

 

No, Williams has a full bachelor's degree from UCLA (if applied to contemporary standards). It's true he was only on-campus for a year (most likely the fall of 1950 and the spring of 1951), but he resumed and completed long-distance studies while in the air force, becoming 'class of 1953'.

Is it confirmed that Williams has a bachelor degree in music?

[Thor 7,452]

9 minutes ago, Steve said:

Is it confirmed that Williams has a bachelor degree in music?

 

No, I was using contemporary academic standards - roughly 2 and a half to 3 years, one of which was on-campus, the remaining in the air force. Maybe the degrees were called something else back then, especially for practitoning musicians. But his UCLA studies amounted to more than just one year.

 

Combined (UCLA, LACC and Juiliard), the sheer amount of time spent amounts to MORE than a bachelor's degree. Closer to master's. But again, I don't know his formal degree title, or how it was combined throughout the different educational institutions, if at all.

[Steve 589]

23 minutes ago, Thor said:

 

No, I was using contemporary academic standards - roughly 2 and a half to 3 years, one of which was on-campus, the remaining in the air force. Maybe the degrees were called something else back then, especially for practitoning musicians. But his UCLA studies amounted to more than just one year.

 

Combined (UCLA, LACC and Juiliard), the sheer amount of time spent amounts to MORE than a bachelor's degree. Closer to master's. But again, I don't know his formal degree title, or how it was combined throughout the different educational institutions, if at all.

Ok, thanks for claryfying. I was researching his early years recently and couldn't find any indication for any degree.

[JW Fan 1]

---

[Nick Parker 3,040]

 

Has Thor been replaced!?

[Jurassic Shark 12,008]

By a plastic dinosaur?

[Thor 7,452]

12 hours ago, JW Fan said:

No, Williams does not posses a bachelor's degree in music or anything beyond ceremonial doctoral degrees. The Air Force didn't do correspondence courses in those days and neither did UCLA to earn a degree. You can even check this with statements made by Conrad Pope who said John has no formal degree.  He was in their program for a short time and Julliard for only a year. They claim alumni due to his stature. 

 

You may be right about degree. As I said, I don't know, I only know the accumulated time spent studying: 2-3 years at UCLA, one semester at Los Angeles City College and a year at Juilliard. Today, this would have been merged to form some form of degree -- the UCLA bit would constitute a bachelor's degree, and the LACC and Juilliard an extension of that to almost form a master's degree -- but it was possibly different back in the 50s, in the US, and for musicians who didn't pursue a theoretical degree.

 

As for air force correspondence, Williams was associated with the universities close to the air force fields. For example, he took courses at an Arizona university while he served there for a few months. I assume this was to build on and finish his UCLA studies. It's a fact that he started UCLA right after high school, it's a fact that he suspended it for a semester at LACC in the fall of 1951, then entered the air force and THEN - as the UCLA records state - became an 'alumnus of 1953'. In 1953, Williams was already a year into his air force service, so some form of long-distance completion must have taken place. It would also make sense that the wind quintet - written around this time, and using air force personell - might have been another exam piece to complete the UCLA studies, just as the piano sonata was when he studied on-campus two years previously.

[WilliamsStarShip2282 308]

I would say, as was common in those days, a lot of histories most famous musicians and composers did not have degrees, and a lot of business was done by word of mouth, recommendations, and hand shakes. A degree wasn't overly important in arts. In addition, a lot of composers only spent a short amount of time in schools, usually quitting and just getting to work, once they realized that there is only so much you can get out of a classroom and and you really learn from experience, and also a great many teachers of composition are extremely narrow minded anyway, and students tend to get frustrated and bored.

 

I think if Williams doesn't get too interested in the topic, it was probably not very important/ didn't really make much of an impact on his music. You can really hear in his music that all his influences come from self study, rather than a method by a certain teacher.

[Jurassic Shark 12,008]

You're actually able to hear that?

[Miguel Andrade 1,260]

2 hours ago, WilliamsStarShip2282 said:

I would say, as was common in those days, a lot of histories most famous musicians and composers did not have degrees, and a lot of business was done by word of mouth, recommendations, and hand shakes. A degree wasn't overly important in arts. In addition, a lot of composers only spent a short amount of time in schools, usually quitting and just getting to work, once they realized that there is only so much you can get out of a classroom and and you really learn from experience, and also a great many teachers of composition are extremely narrow minded anyway, and students tend to get frustrated and bored.

 

I think if Williams doesn't get too interested in the topic, it was probably not very important/ didn't really make much of an impact on his music. You can really hear in his music that all his influences come from self study, rather than a method by a certain teacher.

 

Having a degree in fine arts I can fully endorse your line of thought.

[WilliamsStarShip2282 308]

9 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

You're actually able to hear that?

 

Yes, but you have to know about a lot of different music from the complete duration of his life. I think the clearest example is Treesong, heavily influence by l'Arbre des Songes by Henri Dutilleux. I think I've mentioned that before in another post. If you think about composers that spent a long time with a teacher and were part of a "school", those composers music changed very little during their time. All theirs works were kind of variations on the same idea. Williams on the other hand is an extremely well read person with very diverse interests, and it shows in the wide variety of music that he's written. There is so much originality and freshness in his music, but if you listen carefully you can hear where his inspirations for the piece came from.

Same thing for Pierre Boulez, who I think most people on this forum don't like or even know. But he denied pretty much all his life influence by his teacher Messiaen, and the brainwashed disciples that ripped off his style are too dense to listen to any other music that isn't written by Boulez, and wouldn't know when they write a BS analysis of his work. But actually if you listen to several pieces, including the Notations for Orchestra, you will hear a lot of Messiaen in there. Same thing with Beethoven, can hear a lot of Mozart and Haydn in his music...... can go on forever about it.

[Jurassic Shark 12,008]

4 hours ago, WilliamsStarShip2282 said:

Same thing for Pierre Boulez, who I think most people on this forum don't like or even know. But he denied pretty much all his life influence by his teacher Messiaen, and the brainwashed disciples that ripped off his style are too dense to listen to any other music that isn't written by Boulez, and wouldn't know when they write a BS analysis of his work. But actually if you listen to several pieces, including the Notations for Orchestra, you will hear a lot of Messiaen in there. Same thing with Beethoven, can hear a lot of Mozart and Haydn in his music...... can go on forever about it.

 

So are you saying that the music of Boulez, Beethoven, Mozart, and Haydn were variations on their teacher's influence?

[WilliamsStarShip2282 308]

In some cases, yes. But you also have to look at the historical context. Boulez 100%, but he wouldn't admit it. Mozart, on the other hand, was apparently not shy about how much he admired Haydn's work. Beethoven was a student of Haydn as well, after a rumored refusal to be taken by Mozart. Especially in his early works, you'll hear a lot of Haydn, but there are a ton of moments in Beethoven's music where you hear influence from Mozart's operas. The Ode to Joy, as simple as it is, seems to have been based off a piece from Marriage of Figaro (although I can't remember which piece or which opera for sure, could have been the Seraglio). I'm not sure if Beethoven ever mentioned Mozart much, but I am absolutely certain living in Vienna at that time, he would have heard a ton of his music on his own or through Haydn.

 

But then you have composers, like Williams, where his music is not apparently inspired by one precise genre or composer. Debussy was the same way actually, his music very much came from diverse interests as well. He even (in some way I forget) petitioned to have a gamelan group from Asia come to the worlds fair in Paris back in the day. But the best example would be Stravinsky, who drew on a billion influences.

[TownerFan 4,983]

On 8/7/2020 at 3:28 PM, WilliamsStarShip2282 said:

I would say, as was common in those days, a lot of histories most famous musicians and composers did not have degrees, and a lot of business was done by word of mouth, recommendations, and hand shakes. A degree wasn't overly important in arts. In addition, a lot of composers only spent a short amount of time in schools, usually quitting and just getting to work, once they realized that there is only so much you can get out of a classroom and and you really learn from experience, and also a great many teachers of composition are extremely narrow minded anyway, and students tend to get frustrated and bored.

 

I think if Williams doesn't get too interested in the topic, it was probably not very important/ didn't really make much of an impact on his music. You can really hear in his music that all his influences come from self study, rather than a method by a certain teacher.

I very much agree with this. Williams acknowledged that it was thanks to his father that he got access to good teachers (including Tedesco, he was considered “teacher du jour” in LA during the 1940s and 50s), but also told that a lot of what he learned was the result of beginning to work at a young age with great people he admired. He told several times about the importance of mentorship he got from people like Bobby Van Eps, Stanley Wilson and Conrad Salinger.

[bruce marshall 1,314]

Can we just refer to him as MCT?😁

IF anybody knows about " academia" it's THOR!😊

[JW Fan 1]

---

 

 

[Jurassic Shark 12,008]

Better leave while you still have a chance.

[Steve 589]

2 hours ago, JW Fan said:

he just wants to make himself appear as the self-made man who did it on his own. It is better for his legacy and for his appeal.

Yes, surely this is his intention at 88.

[bruce marshall 1,314]

Composers who claim to be " self- taught" usually mean that didn't have. a formal education I.e attend a music conservatory.

They took their education into their own hands ; they sought instruction on their own initiative.

It doesn't mean they learned on their own.

Travel and Elgar fall into this category.

It's a pretty meaningless appellation.

[Jurassic Shark 12,008]

On 8/6/2020 at 7:55 PM, Thor said:

Interesting response, what he says about "two summers" with Tedesco.

 

Sounds borderline romantic.

[bruce marshall 1,314]

9 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

Sounds borderline romantic.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

13 hours ago, JW Fan said:

He is a good film composer but for God's sake he is not in the arena of Beethoven, Mozart, or any of those aforementioned names. 

 

Why not? 

[Jurassic Shark 12,008]

He ain't dead yet.

[WilliamsStarShip2282 308]

13 hours ago, JW Fan said:

No one really replied to the original question that I asked and most went off into tangents that were unrelated to the original posting. I read what was written and some of it is just plain silly. Tedesco taught numerous people and none of them are imitators of him of sound like one another. I don't Previn, Mancini, Riddle, or Goldsmith sounding like each other. He wasn't that type of individual or teacher. 

 

The other comments about how you can hear his self-study in his scores? Utter nonsense and the other comments about Beethoven, Mozart, and Haydn are ridiculous as well. Williams was trained by Tedesco, of that there is no doubt, he just wants to make himself appear as the self-made man who did it on his own. It is better for his legacy and for his appeal. It is true, no and the other comments about schooling, that you can add them up and get a master's degree? By my math, that would equal six years of schooling for a master's degree, not three, and his time would not equate to a degree. Alumni can mean many things including time just spent at the institution. He is an alumni of Julliard and he only spent a year studying piano there. He is a good film composer but for God's sake he is not in the arena of Beethoven, Mozart, or any of those aforementioned names. 

 

 

If you have such a bitter attitude, plus, seeing as you are so knowledgeable, then why ask in the first place? So you can have a reason to put down Williams? So you went to such a great length to trash the man on a fan site for him?

 

And I will mention as well, if you think Previn learned everything from that guy, then clearly you have no business coming on here and being a jerk to those who commented. Read his book, which has very little to say about Tedesco and more much of well documented learning from experience in the field. Unless, of course, you will find some way to put that against him as well, and say he was lying to make his legacy more appealing.

[Jurassic Shark 12,008]

You're lying!

[bruce marshall 1,314]

1 hour ago, Nick Parker said:

 

Why not? 

I have zero Mozart in my collection.

I have twenty plus JW scores in my collection.

My point? No point. 😎

 

Nelson Riddle is clearly MCT's prize student.

He doesn't have to promote the myth of being " self-made".

Unlike some of his other students.😝

 

[Jurassic Shark 12,008]

22 minutes ago, bruce marshall said:

My point? No point. 😎

 

Spot on!

[bruce marshall 1,314]

My sister has an M.A. in Music.

She studied composing with John Corigliano.

As far as somevl posters here are concerned, that makes her a more accomplished composer than JW.

Congrats,,Sis!

" Eat your heart out, Johnny"

[Jurassic Shark 12,008]

Show us some of her compositions!

[bruce marshall 1,314]

5 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Show us some of her compositions!

Like most musicians,,she obtained a degree to teach. After years of being a performer.

Where is the great JOHN WILLIAMS' degree?

Huh?

[Jurassic Shark 12,008]

He's got a degree in Star Wars. The ninth degree!

[JW Fan 1]

---

 

 

 

[Score 770]

On 8/9/2020 at 6:25 PM, JW Fan said:

Williams was trained by Tedesco, of that there is no doubt, he just wants to make himself appear as the self-made man who did it on his own. 

 

Williams did not deny that he was trained by Tedesco, he actually confirmed that. The question asked in the interview was "how long did you spend with him?", and I don't see any reason to doubt JW's answer, "two summers" (if it was 3 summers, I don't think it makes a significant difference, he might not remember exactly). In every interview that I have heard, JW has always been very modest, downplaying his own achievements with respect to the great masters of the past, so I don't believe he wanted to appear as a self-made man by minimizing the importance of his teacher (note that this was not the first question asked in the interview, to which he was answering).

 

However, then Mutter asked: "Who was your main influence in terms of composing? Who was your main composition teacher?". These are two very different questions! But while she was completing the second one, JW had already started answering the first one, and maybe didn't even hear the ending of the second question. So, when he said that he doesn't really know, because he has been writing in a chamaleon-like style, he was talking about musical influences, and not about teachers. I think what he said was perfectly correct from every point of view. 

 

 

Quote

He is a good film composer but for God's sake he is not in the arena of Beethoven, Mozart, or any of those aforementioned names. 

 

Well, this is debatable, especially here . I have no hesitation in putting him (and several other film composers) in the list of the great "classical" masters, the same list that includes people like Beethoven, Tchaikovsky, Prokoviev, and so on. He might not be Beethoven, but I definitely think there are great classical composers (whose music I love) whose achievements are less significant than his.  

 

On the other hand, JW himself would agree with you on that point!

 

 

[WilliamsStarShip2282 308]

5 hours ago, Score said:

 

Williams did not deny that he was trained by Tedesco, he actually confirmed that. The question asked in the interview was "how long did you spend with him?", and I don't see any reason to doubt JW's answer, "two summers" (if it was 3 summers, I don't think it makes a significant difference, he might not remember exactly). In every interview that I have heard, JW has always been very modest, downplaying his own achievements with respect to the great masters of the past, so I don't believe he wanted to appear as a self-made man by minimizing the importance of his teacher (note that this was not the first question asked in the interview, to which he was answering).

 

However, then Mutter asked: "Who was your main influence in terms of composing? Who was your main composition teacher?". These are two very different questions! But while she was completing the second one, JW had already started answering the first one, and maybe didn't even hear the ending of the second question. So, when he said that he doesn't really know, because he has been writing in a chamaleon-like style, he was talking about musical influences, and not about teachers. I think what he said was perfectly correct from every point of view. 

 

 

 

Well, this is debatable, especially here . I have no hesitation in putting him (and several other film composers) in the list of the great "classical" masters, the same list that includes people like Beethoven, Tchaikovsky, Prokoviev, and so on. He might not be Beethoven, but I definitely think there are great classical composers (whose music I love) whose achievements are less significant than his.  

 

On the other hand, JW himself would agree with you on that point!

 

 

 

Excellent response. I think in general, you cannot compare artists in the same way as say, scientists. Einstein's contributions to science absolutely CANNOT be compared to those of Beethoven. Einstein created the foundations for modern (even though by now his discoveries occurred to him a long time ago) they're still valid and in some aspects still too advance. Beethoven wrote great music that remained influential for a very long time, however a lot of other music has come since then, that if you had to make a check list for what makes a good composition, that is of equal standard. Unless you are so touched by Beethoven's music to say he still is the best (and i think that with a modern audience not many people know more than his symphonies), than it is a complete dogmatic and mindless approach to just keep repeating and repeating and repeating that he is the best. There is no one best, there are many bests. And Williams is certainly one of them, which need only require self reflection and not the brainwashed none sense a bunch of scholars put out there, many of whom do not even play an instrument.


I will also say in regards to the Previn video, I love hearing him speak. But apparently the person who, I don't even know what his/her point is, like they didn't even seem to listen to it. All he said was that Tedesco influenced a young kid into basically paying attention, listening, and focusing more on being able to create what he wanted. Tools, which yes that is very important. But that is what a good teacher does. So how does what Previn said, prove Williams influences could have possibly come from anybody but Tedesco ? Just because you can't hear it, doesn't mean its not there.

 

[bruce marshall 1,314]

8 hours ago, Score said:

 

Williams did not deny that he was trained by Tedesco, he actually confirmed that. The question asked in the interview was "how long did you spend with him?", and I don't see any reason to doubt JW's answer, "two summers" (if it was 3 summers, I don't think it makes a significant difference, he might not remember exactly). In every interview that I have heard, JW has always been very modest, downplaying his own achievements with respect to the great masters of the past, so I don't believe he wanted to appear as a self-made man by minimizing the importance of his teacher (note that this was not the first question asked in the interview, to which he was answering).

 

However, then Mutter asked: "Who was your main influence in terms of composing? Who was your main composition teacher?". These are two very different questions! But while she was completing the second one, JW had already started answering the first one, and maybe didn't even hear the ending of the second question. So, when he said that he doesn't really know, because he has been writing in a chamaleon-like style, he was talking about musical influences, and not about teachers. I think what he said was perfectly correct from every point of view. 

 

 

 

Well, this is debatable, especially here . I have no hesitation in putting him (and several other film composers) in the list of the great "classical" masters, the same list that includes people like Beethoven, Tchaikovsky, Prokoviev, and so on. He might not be Beethoven, but I definitely think there are great classical composers (whose music I love) whose achievements are less significant than his.  

 

On the other hand, JW himself would agree with you on that point!

 

 

I'll take him over Brahms any day!😊

[Jurassic Shark 12,008]

3 hours ago, WilliamsStarShip2282 said:

Unless you are so touched by Beethoven's music to say he still is the best (and i think that with a modern audience not many people know more than his symphonies), than it is a complete dogmatic and mindless approach to just keep repeating and repeating and repeating that he is the best.

 

Mote importantly, is he better than PDQ Bach?

[WilliamsStarShip2282 308]

20 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

Mote importantly, is he better than PDQ Bach?

 

Never!!!

[bruce marshall 1,314]

10 minutes ago, WilliamsStarShip2282 said:

 

Never!!!

Hey! You stole MY shtick😡😠

 

 

I've said it before but I'll say it again.

JW is the 20th Century equivalent of Tchaikovsky.

Neither were revolutionary nor particularly innovative.

 

BOTH achieved great success through dramatic works ( ballet in PT case).

BOTH were superbly gifted composers who reached audiences through the deeply EMOTIONAL quality of their work.

😍

 Nuff said!

[Thor 7,452]

On 8/9/2020 at 6:25 PM, JW Fan said:

It is true, no and the other comments about schooling, that you can add them up and get a master's degree? By my math, that would equal six years of schooling for a master's degree, not three, and his time would not equate to a degree. 

 

Actually, the math reads as follows: 2.5 (possibly 3) years at UCLA + one semester at LACC + 1 year at at Juilliard. Total 4-4.5 years. In today's standards, a bachelor is generally earned after 3 years, a master 5-6 years, depending on institution. And today, people are able to earn their degree by combining education from various institutions. So my original statement holds true -- if using today's standards, the sheer time involved studying almost amounts to a master's degree. I'm not saying he holds a degree, just that there is a time equivalency.

 

Regardless, the most important thing for budding musicians and composers in the 50s was not to earn a degree, but to be admitted to the great mentors and teachers. Williams certainly succeeded in that regard, with people like Tedesco, Rosina Levine, Robert van Epps and others.

[bruce marshall 1,314]

-zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

M.A.

B.A.

LACC

UCLA.......😗

[JW Fan 1]

---

[bruce marshall 1,314]

No degree, no respect.

😉

[Thor 7,452]

On 11/08/2020 at 7:22 PM, JW Fan said:

Attended means did not graduate and in the US a bachelor's degree is at minimal four years of schooling not three as it is in Europe and the UK. He graduated high school in 1950 and started in the service in 1952 which would give him at most a little over a year at UCLA or Los Angeles Community College. He was let out of the service in 1954 and then went to Julliard for a year and then into the studios. 

 

Actually, the Juilliard site is incorrect. He left the air force in January-1955, not 1954. He studied a year at UCLA in the fall of 1950 and the spring of 1951. LACC in the fall of 1951, and then the air force from January-1952 onwards. He is an UCLA alumni of 1953, which means he must have continued the studies into the air force. After completing the air force in January-1955, he went more or less straight to Juilliard for a year (he was accepted into Rosina Llevine's class while stationed at March Air Force base in California in the last leg of his military career in the fall of 1954).

[JW Fan 1]

---

[Thor 7,452]

Yeah, but the web is full of incorrect JW biographies, especially as far as his early years are concerned. Even big official sites like Wikipedia. I spent years collating a number of facts and sources and details to form what I consider the most correct timeline (although it's not set in stone). So I'm more concerned about preserving and improving that than to correct everyone else's. Incidentally, the only thing the Wiki entry seems to get wrong, is the '1951' bit -- which would contradict a number of other sources. Otherwise, it's pretty much on-target.