Opinion on Jonn Powell's work for Solo

[blondheim 1,157]

I don't think complexity always equals brilliance. Clint Mansell doesn't write in Williams' symphonic idiom either, and he is an excellent composer. Neither did David Bowie, and likewise.

 

Now, if you wanted to call Giacchino a pastiche artist, I would hear that argument.

[Arpy 4,145]

2 hours ago, publicist said:

There's no great score in there, because Giacchino is just unsuited to write in Williams' symphonic idiom. The last time he - or his many helpers - halfway got there was in 2005's Ratatouille, which has a great cue called 'Dinner Rush', that may be nowhere as complex in orchestral layout as JW, but it makes up for it with pure kitchen-sink playfulness. It's been all downhill since then.

 

What drives me up the wall isn't so much the fact that many guys like Rogue One but the pattern behind it: the number of people who genuinely do not hear much of a difference between a brilliant symphonic mind - or even a rather good one like Powell - and MG, who clearly can't harmonize a tune or develop an ostinato beyond a musical third-grader, is growing - and i will fight that to the last, futile as it may be. 

Urgh. 

 

 

 

'wHy Do pEOPle LiKE thIS mUSic?'

 

 

[publicist 4,643]

Worse than peasants, undertakers of a once (often enough) great artform that is now but a pale shadow of what it once was.

[blondheim 1,157]

This conversation has become depressingly elitist. Music is for everyone. Humming in a field? Music. Comparisons of music, sure, but no-one is unsuited to it.

 

To say film music has to be at a certain level of education and harmony and construction is myopic in the extreme. Wagner once made these arguments as well, that simplifiying and folking up music, making it 'pop' was going to be the death of music. That paper was rife with Anti-Semitism, but still, his argument: That when composers stop writing complicated music and instead write simple music to please the people, the listeners will get dumber and appreciate only simple music, until only simple music is demanded, and then only simple music is made. A fragile point that doesn't hold up to history. Music is extending in all directions, forwards and backwards, and that is okay.

[Arpy 4,145]

2 hours ago, publicist said:

Worse than peasants, undertakers of a once (often enough) great artform that is now but a pale shadow of what it once was.

 

[Jurassic Shark 12,075]

1 hour ago, blondheim said:

when composers stop writing complicated music and instead write simple music to please the people, the listeners will get dumber and appreciate only simple music, until only simple music is demanded, and then only simple music is made.

 

And it's happening in the world right now.

[publicist 4,643]

1 hour ago, blondheim said:

This conversation has become depressingly elitist. Music is for everyone.

 

So? Who's stopping ya? Just don't expect a lot of thumbs up for your choices.

[Datameister 2,042]

7 hours ago, publicist said:

There's no great score in there, because Giacchino is just unsuited to write in Williams' symphonic idiom. The last time he - or his many helpers - halfway got there was in 2005's Ratatouille, which has a great cue called 'Dinner Rush', that may be nowhere as complex in orchestral layout as JW, but it makes up for it with pure kitchen-sink playfulness. It's been all downhill since then.

 

What drives me up the wall isn't so much the fact that many guys like Rogue One but the pattern behind it: the number of people who genuinely do not hear much of a difference between a brilliant symphonic mind - or even a rather good one like Powell - and MG, who clearly can't harmonize a tune or develop an ostinato beyond a musical third-grader, is growing - and i will fight that to the last, futile as it may be. 

 

Well, you probably won't win any of them over with hyperbole like that.  I agree (as would MG himself) that Williams' command of the symphony orchestra is on a whole different level. I also admit I've lately been less energized by Giacchino's work than I was early in his career. But "can't harmonize a tune"? IMO, you'd have better luck in your "fight" by leveling criticisms that are actually grounded in reality.

[publicist 4,643]

2 minutes ago, Datameister said:

Well, you probably won't win any of them over with hyperbole like that.  I agree (as would MG himself) that Williams' command of the symphony orchestra is on a whole different level. I also admit I've lately been less energized by Giacchino's work than I was early in his career. But "can't harmonize a tune"? IMO, you'd have better luck in your "fight" by leveling criticisms that are actually grounded in reality.

 

I said 'beyond a third grader' and that's exactly what it sounds like to me. It sure is enough for younger listeners as it superficially checks the usual film music boxes, if a huge chorus is included, even better. But again, the few moments i take to post here once in a while i will make sure that the bar is not leveled down too fast (before scores like R1 inevitably become the gold standard).

[blondheim 1,157]

3 minutes ago, publicist said:

I said 'beyond a third grader' and that's exactly what it sounds like to me. It sure is enough for younger listeners as it superficially checks the usual film music boxes, if a huge chorus is included, even better. But again, the few moments i take to post here once in a while i will make sure that the bar is not leveled down too fast (before scores like R1 inevitably become the gold standard).

 

I don't believe anyone has called it the gold standard. I said I liked it better than Solo, others have merely stated they like it more than the criticism. Liking something and raising it up on a pedestal aren't the same thing. I like popcorn but I wouldn't call it a dinner. This is the danger of hyperbole for effect, you end up putting words in someone else's mouth. As you exaggerate your own comments, you end up exaggerating the comments of others.

 

No big deal, we all do it. I just wanted to clarify that my thoughts on it were what they were, and were not that.

[Arpy 4,145]

No one's claiming R1 is the gold standard or ever will be. Giacchino has become a prominent figure in championing the symphonic film score in the modern blockbuster, but he doesn't represent a particular movement. If anything he's still under the very large shadow cast by the likes of Williams, Goldsmith and Horner.

 

 

[publicist 4,643]

As eternal optimist, I say it will become eventually. And yes, this is sour grapes, as i have lost interest in the hobby a long time ago and am kind of dubious if there's ever a renaissance of music with a capital M as vital part of moviemaking - not as subservient as it tends to be now, either minimalist or temp track-infested. There are a handful of quite good scores each year, seldom by Hollywood guys, though (which is in part because many movies are conformist cineplex fodder).

[bruce marshall 1,315]

14 hours ago, publicist said:

BBlah..blah .....blah..

Yadda..yadda...yaddda.

😁

[Remco 685]

@publicist is right though.

 

Everyone is free to like R1 as much as they want, but Gia sounds like an amateur if you’re accustomed to classical music and by extension JW’s idiom.
 

And I don’t think that’s elitist to say – since Gia deliberately mimics an existing idiom, there are some objective ways to look at the quality of it. Again, whether you like the music or not, that’s something else.

 

[blondheim 1,157]

12 minutes ago, Remco said:

@publicist is right though.

 

Everyone is free to like R1 as much as they want, but Gia sounds like an amateur if you’re accustomed to classical music and by extension JW’s idiom.
 

And I don’t think that’s elitist to say – since Gia deliberately mimics an existing idiom, there are some objective ways to look at the quality of it. Again, whether you like the music or not, that’s something else.

 

I am accustomed to classical music and no one here is saying they are on the same level, especially not me. But tbh, Williams pales in comparison there as well. Giacchino is definitely a few levels below him and the other greats, but so are Silvestri, Mansell, Zimmer, etc. Music has become more intimate and chamber-like. I prefer the big grand capital-R Romantic stuff myself, but I don't think Giacchino has ever said he was trying to be Williams, I think that is something other people have said about him and that he is now judged by. I wouldn't call him amateurish, but admittedly on the level of a Brian Tyler, not a Jerry Goldsmith or a James Horner. Elfman also doesn't sound classical by any stretch of the imagination, which is why his re-recordings and concert performances always sound so thin. The original recordings are engineered to within an inch of their lives. They sound fantastic but are very hard to replicate without Elfman's micro-managing.

 

My point being that all Star Wars scores aren't required to sound like Williams, and being obviously influenced by him isn't a fact that requires him to produce Williams-quality work or be rejected as unsuitable, or amateurish. Imo.

[publicist 4,643]

Ok, Giacchino didn't shave his head, wore a black turtleneck and faked a John Williams ID card, so he probably really didn't try to be Williams. But his stuff still sounds like a poor man's Williams, so obviously he *was* asked to emulate Williams, and he did what he could (not much). The thin claim he's only influenced but isn't required to write on the *quality level*...you must know how desperate that sounds. 

 

The fact that MG even came into such esteemed position is reason enough to state that standards have slipped: not because the guy can't write at least occasionally fine Pixar scores for mostly small-is ensembles, but because he's even considered to inherit JW's most important franchise. And I bet the maestro wasn't happy with the results, either (if he ever heard them).

 

PS: can someone change Jonn Powell's name to John?

[blondheim 1,157]

13 minutes ago, publicist said:

The thin claim he's only influenced but isn't required to write on the *quality level*...you must know how desperate that sounds.

 

? I am influenced by Gustav Mahler (obviously) but I could not possibly write on his quality level, nor am I required to try. So actually I don't know how desperate that sounds.

[publicist 4,643]

Mahler, my ass. It sounds like a Star Wars fanboy looking for ever more ludicrous rationalizations and in final analysis, that's probably exactly what it is.

[blondheim 1,157]

Hear what you like. I grew up with Star Wars, I would admit that I am a fan, but I more ravenously devour Mahler and everything he wrote and would be more apt to sensationalize my opinions of him.

 

Which rationalizations were ludicrous? It would be helpful. It seems I may need to have this argument again. In fact, since you said ever more ludicrous, a ranked list of my opinions and how ludicrous they are would be even better, now that I think of it. I'd like to chart the progression.

[Remco 685]

19 hours ago, blondheim said:

 

? I am influenced by Gustav Mahler (obviously) but I could not possibly write on his quality level, nor am I required to try. So actually I don't know how desperate that sounds.

If that’s the case, then you’d probably not attempt to finish the orchestration of his 10th symphony. 
 

Maybe you think it’s far-fetched, but I think it’s the right comparison to make for any composer coming near the SW universe and composing a score in Williams’ style and idiom.

 

Unless they’d attempt something else, like Goransson and to a lesser extent, Powell. But I’d say Powell has more chops than both Giacchino and Goransson anyway.

[Arpy 4,145]

18 hours ago, publicist said:

The fact that MG even came into such esteemed position is reason enough to state that standards have slipped: not because the guy can't write at least occasionally fine Pixar scores for mostly small-is ensembles, but because he's even considered to inherit JW's most important franchise. 

It doesn't impinge on Williams' legacy. Those scores are still there and everyone (here at least) recognizes their value and importance. This argument just sounds as childish as the people making the claims that George Lucas ruined their childhoods with the Prequels.

[blondheim 1,157]

I personally would never touch the tenth, no. I've listened to the results of others doing so and formed opinions.

 

I mentioned above that it is my personal view that the name Star Wars doesn't have to be synonymous with Williams' musical language. Obviously, if you felt otherwise, we would disagree. I was excited to hear that Desplat was scoring Rogue One and then likewise excited when Giacchino was announced. I want a bunch of composers to get Star Wars scores. I'd love to hear what Newton Howard's take on Star Wars would be, or god forbid, even Zimmer. Let Howard Shore do a Star Wars movie, I mean, he did a Twilight sequel.

[Remco 685]

12 minutes ago, Arpy said:

It doesn't impinge on Williams' legacy. Those scores are still there and everyone (here at least) recognizes their value and importance. This argument just sounds as childish as the people making the claims that George Lucas ruined their childhoods with the Prequels.

 

Nobody is saying it does that. It’s just that when you consider Williams’ technical skill the golden standard for orchestral film music writing, then you must recognize the standards have lowered nowadays. There’s nothing childish about that.

 

(You could also make the argument, maybe, that from a certain objective point of view the prequels are not on the same quality of the OT without saying that Lucas ruined your childhood.)

 

@blondheim I surely agree with that. But I just don’t feel that what Gia did was his own take on SW. To me, it sounds like a poor imitation of Williams. Dare I say it, I’d even prefer to see Zimmer tackle a Star Wars film because he’d never try to emulate Williams.

[blondheim 1,157]

I never disagreed that there is a difference in quality between Williams and Giacchino. A vast difference, imo. I balked at a little of the elitism: such and such is unsuited to write music, shouldn't be allowed to write music, shouldn't touch this franchise, etc.

 

And @Remco I don't think Rogue One sounds anymore like imitation Williams than all the rest of Giacchino's output. That was a fact that bothered me for a while. Other than Incredibles, I avoided Giacchino like the plague until the Cloverfield Overture. That is when I could still hear Williams but finally his own voice started to shine through, for me. After that, I became a middling fan. I don't know how many five-star scores the man has done, but he delivers solid 3s and 4s. Nothing wrong with that. He has moments of occasional brilliance. I have compared him to Brian Tyler before in this thread, and I feel like that is an accurate comparison.

[Arpy 4,145]

22 minutes ago, Remco said:

 

Nobody is saying it does that. It’s just that when you consider Williams’ technical skill the golden standard for orchestral film music writing, then you must recognize the standards have lowered nowadays. There’s nothing childish about that.

 

(You could also make the argument, maybe, that from a certain objective point of view the prequels are not on the same quality of the OT without saying that Lucas ruined your childhood.)

 

@blondheim I surely agree with that. But I just don’t feel that what Gia did was his own take on SW. To me, it sounds like a poor imitation of Williams. Dare I say it, I’d even prefer to see Zimmer tackle a Star Wars film because he’d never try to emulate Williams.

 

What standards have slipped? Were there standards to begin with? The face of film music is constantly shifting, yes, there will be those whose impact and influence is greater and longer-lasting, but that's not to say we won't have more artists to arise in the future who come to shape what and how music functions in film. 

 

On your last point to Blondheim: I think it's blindingly clear, especially after Desplat was forced out, that Gia was hired to make an approximation of Williams' scores. Rogue One was already plagued with issues, and this being the first non-Williams theatrical score, it seems they wanted whoever was writing the score to sound that way.

 

I would like to hear what Giacchino might offer in the future with the restraints removed, more time. There are moments in Star Trek Beyond and later, with Fallen Kingdom that are clearly Giacchino in his element and seemingly more free. 

 

 

 

 

 

[publicist 4,643]

1 hour ago, blondheim said:

I never disagreed that there is a difference in quality between Williams and Giacchino. A vast difference, imo. I balked at a little of the elitism: such and such is unsuited to write music, shouldn't be allowed to write music, shouldn't touch this franchise, etc.

 

But it's exactly what it is: a guy who writes film music - tons of - but hasn't got the chops to follow a big romantic symphonic template Williams has set for *this* saga just shouldn't be his successor, period. All I hear in your and my special friend Arpy's reasonings is a rather curious relativism to the point where I can already the big hurrahs when MG finally takes over the franchise (not unlikely with JJ's involvement).

 

Back to the slipping standards, right now I give Disney the benefit of the doubt that they had little choice after Desplat was fired. But if they hired back MG in earnest after what he delivered here instead of someone with a solid command of the idiom and a symphony orchestra - that would prove to me that they just don't care. Because SW, a series I haven't watched in many years and not even listened to the scores a lot, deserves better, musically after 9 Williams installments.

[blondheim 1,157]

Star Wars doesn't have to be grand and symphonic and romantic. Give me chamber Star Wars, synthetic Star Wars, Star Wars on period instruments.

[Remco 685]

But when it is trying to be grand, symphonic and romantic, it should be judged by the standard of Williams' 9 scores.

 

[blondheim 1,157]

I disagree. Giacchino writes Giacchino music. Williams writes Williams music. No one should be faulted for writing in their voice with their style. Those things are difficult to develop and are things to be proud of. Harry Potter's Nicholas Hooper comes under fire for the same thing sometimes, and I think it is unfair there as well. I, for one, like having different composers try and re-invent the wheel when it comes to franchises. Zimmer did an excellent job with Batman. He isn't Elfman, but who cares? It's great to have both. I can think of at least a dozen franchises that have benefited from this approach. All of this is subjective however, all I can do is state my position. I am not trying to win hearts and minds. I think Rogue One was trying to be exactly what it was. And if it went a bit rogue while doing it, well I can forgive that.

[Thor 7,504]

I don't even want to talk about the Giacchino effort, as it's one of the few scores that actually got me physically angry.

 

As for Powell's SOLO, I think it's better than all of Williams sequels. How's that for controversy?

[blondheim 1,157]

I appreciate a polarizing opinion. I seem to have plenty of them. I think The Last Jedi might be the best Star Wars album we've ever had, after Attack of the Clones. That's just me. I reacted very strongly to the Rogue One score when I watched it in theatres. If someone didn't like Giacchino, I can understand why they would loathe this score. It is him on auto-pilot, so everything you would hate is pushed to the extreme. Simple, Disney-fied melodies and tons of Williams emulation. But I think it also carries the mark of experience that something like Jupiter Ascending had. I thought it was charming, I hesitate to use the word cute. Especially given how serious that film was. That dichotomy screamed at you, imo. I liked that. Giacchino might find that condescending because I do think he was trying to write something beyond his capabilities but there it is.

 

I love Powell, and I loved Solo but it was nowhere near as inspiring as I thought it was going to be after his announcement. Knowing what he was capable of, I was mildly disappointed when I grabbed the score on album and ran it through the first time. I came around but it had to grow on me a little. I wanted stronger melodies and he has them in him. Hidden World had them. I think one of his best scores after the Dragons is Horton. Nailed Seuss on the head.

[Remco 685]

This discussion is going in circles, but again I think we disagree on the content of R1's score. You hear it as being in Giacchino's own voice, @publicist and me think differently.

 

That also means I think you can't make the comparison between Zimmer/Elfman Batman and Williams/Giacchino Star Wars. 

 

[blondheim 1,157]

I think if you can tell it is a Giacchino score just by listening to it, and I believe you can, then it is in the man's voice. If you don't hear any Giacchino-isms and only Williams emulation, then that's that.

[Arpy 4,145]

2 hours ago, publicist said:

 

Because SW, a series I haven't watched in many years and not even listened to the scores a lot, deserves better, musically after 9 Williams installments.

Error! Does not compute!

 

 

 

[publicist 4,643]

2 hours ago, blondheim said:

I disagree. Giacchino writes Giacchino music.

 

No, he writes - in this case - lackluster Williams impersonations leavened with what i'd call 'Giacchino epic', meaning the kind of simplistic film music-lite stuff he does for i.e. Jupiter Ascending. Neither fish nor fowl.

[gkgyver 1,645]

1 hour ago, blondheim said:

I think if you can tell it is a Giacchino score just by listening to it, and I believe you can, then it is in the man's voice. If you don't hear any Giacchino-isms and only Williams emulation, then that's that.

 

If by Giacchino-isms, you mean repetitive loops, lego block music, mostly bland themes, and reductive adapting of Williams' music because of lack of finesse, then yes, that is the man's voice. 

[blondheim 1,157]

I think we can all agree he imitates John Williams and is not on his quality level, whether you can bear listening to his stuff or not.

[Evanus 217]

What's giving me the creeps is that most SW fans seem to think RO's score is some kind of masterpiece. We're doomed!

[blondheim 1,157]

Haha, I would definitely not call it a masterpiece, no.

[Fabulin 3,511]

17 minutes ago, Evanus said:

What's giving me the creeps is that most SW fans seem to think RO's score is some kind of masterpiece. We're doomed!

Apparently it is not against Giacchino's programming to impersonate a deity.

[Arpy 4,145]

If Giacchino does become the favoured composer to do more Star Wars films, I would be satisfied knowing that Publicist was crying on a fan forum about slipping standards and how much he hated Giacchino. I wouldn't go so far as to say it was sado masochism, but there's some part of me that enjoys the suffering of those who, like Pub, are hurt by film music choices. 

 

 

 

 

[bruce marshall 1,315]

Thor will no doubt join him in his misery😁

[TheAvengerButton 175]

I enjoy Giacchino's music, and have thoroughly enjoyed his scoring of Rogue One. It's not Williams. Neither is Powell (and I like the Solo score better than RO for sure). But then again my favorite Star Wars soundtrack isn't Williams either (Joel McNeely's Shadows of the Empire).

[blondheim 1,157]

I still hope Desplat gets a Star Wars score. I was curious to see where that would take him.

[Jules 59]

On 8/15/2020 at 12:44 AM, Thor said:

I don't even want to talk about the Giacchino effort, as it's one of the few scores that actually got me physically angry.

 

As for Powell's SOLO, I think it's better than all of Williams sequels. How's that for controversy?

I find it extremely hard to listen to Rogue One, and I think it's a hugely mediocre effort, even as someone who really likes the movie. I do think MG could have done at least a little bit better if he'd been given more than the ridiculously small 4 weeks. 

 

SOLO was great, but nothing in that score can surpass the iconic Rey's Theme or even Jedi Steps and March of the Resistance. I still love TFA, haven't seen the film since cinemas though.