"Knights of Ren" Motif Appreciation Thread

[Falstaft 1196]

Here's a theme that doesn't get much love -- The Knights of Ren motif:

 

It's not quite the most original of Williams's themes. Heck, it's about as generic as you can get in his style: a repeated note, followed by semitonal double neighbor figure. Blame it on the uninspired, underwritten antagonists it's supposed to depict, I guess.

 

Perhaps the theme's punch is diminished due to a certain fuzziness of signification. In fact, on my first couple of listens I took it, wrongly, to be an additional Kylo Ren theme. The main culprit in this confusion is the first, ear-grabbing rendition accompanies the big Exegol building during the opening sequence -- not the KoR themselves. (Whether this is tracked, spliced, or something else I have no clue.)

 

 

 

Still, there are some neat treatments throughout the score. My favorite is probably for the reforging scene (2M2), owing to the slippery string accompaniment and the way it kind of lines up with the rhythm of the hammer strikes. It's also noteworthy that, right away, we're getting two different versions of the theme, one that begins on the 5th scale degree (as on Exegol) and one that begins on the tonic (reforging).

 

 

What I'm really interested to hear JWfan's opinion on in is the ostinato figure underneath the theme in 3M6 "Knights of Ren," which accompanies their "cool" aerial pose after landing on Pasaana. (Starts at 47 seconds below)

 

 

 

Tell me that doesn't sound a little -- even a lot -- like the ostinato from Duel of the Fates? Has this been remarked upon elsewhere? The DOTF-line is extremely hard to hear clearly against soundeffects, but I'm fairly certain it's either G-A-G-F#-E,  A-A-G-F#-E, or a combination of the two. Maybe relevant that E-minor is the key DoTF is most strongly associated with, and that's what this cue is in too. And rumor had it that Williams did record some form of DoTF for Episode 9. Anyone able to clean up the audio here to make that ostinato more audible?

 

Edit: Listening even more carefully, I'm not hearing DotF that much any more in this cue -- instead, I'm getting a Bb-A-Bb-A-G-E-E pattern. But it's still very hard to make out discrete pitches. Oh well!

[Fabulin 2376]

I always thought about this scene, from a Disney film 20 years earlier, ever since I heard what Williams wrote for the rock scene context:

In fact, the music James Newton Howard wrote for the 0:48 /  0:55 moments also seems related

 

Ever since I noted about 15 minutes worth of cinematic similarities between TFA and another Disney film, Atlantis, and later a few little but striking ones in TLJ and TROS, I expect that there is some sort of behind-the-scenes Disney learning on past projects. As for music, Williams' "The Scavenger" and "Crystal Chamber" JNH wrote have a vague but intriguing similarity, even though when scrutinized, they are very different in details.... very telling since Rey is clearly based on the two female characters from Atlantis, the monumental-ruins-scavenger, myths-knowing, stick-fighting princess Kida, and the mechanical genius Aud(rey), and then there is the film's second theme, in Atlantis' case the happy U.S. Gilded Age militaristic / big brass "The Submarine", and in TFA the Mahler 9th theme / Jerry Goldsmith orchestration / Williams military counterpoint sort of theme in MOTR.  This time too I can imagine Abrams asking Williams for a menacing, scared brass for the Knights of Ren scene, based on JNH's music for Dinosaur,  even if that would be the only relation to that score (Notice even the Exegol lighting and aesthetic choices in the Knights of Ren example above, as compared to the Carnotaurus scene in 1:25 of my link).

 

Edit: or consider these tracks:

 

 

The knights of Ren aesthetic is all in there.

[BrotherSound 673]

6 minutes ago, Falstaft said:

The main culprit in this confusion is ts first, ear-grabbing rendition accompanies the big Exegol building during the opening sequence -- not the KoR themselves. (Whether this is tracked, spliced, or something else I have no clue.)

We can’t know for sure yet, but it’s most likely from (1M2? 1M22? 1M2 v2?) “The Ninth Beginning”. The November 11th cut had 0:40 of this cue with six seconds of Kylo’s theme immediately after the main title, and the OST has 0:40 of something with 6 seconds of Kylo’s theme before continuing with what we now know is 1M8 Approaching the Emperor [or Nursery]. Since the November 11th cut appears to have opened directly on Exegol, eschewing the Mustafar segment entirely, it probably accompanied that same shot in the earlier cut, too.

[artguy360 1049]

The heavy use of timpani reminds me of JW's OT style but otherwise, this tiny motif is really unimpressive and unimportant. The most minor of new additions.

[Ludwig 823]

4 hours ago, Falstaft said:

Edit: Listening even more carefully, I'm not hearing DotF that much any more in this cue -- instead, I'm getting a Bb-A-Bb-Ab-G-E-E pattern. But it's still very hard to make out discrete pitches. Oh well!

 

I'm hearing something like A-G-Bb-A-G-F#-F#-G, repeating. I can't make out an E in that run, but it sounds like there's more than that line going on, but it may be sound effects. In any case, even with the indistinct tones we're hearing, it seems that Williams is drawing on his trusted friend the octatonic scale here for this accompaniment, E-F#-G-A-Bb-C-Db-Eb-E. The melody is drawn from another scale, if you want to call it Phrygian or Hungarian minor (rotated to start on the 5th note).

 

What I think is cool about this is that it doesn't rely on a single technique or scale, as we usually expect from most film music passages. Instead, it combines techniques and makes them hang together nicely. Williams generally does this by having melody and accompaniment do different things. And it kind of makes sense here - the swirling, menacing aerial shot is matched by the swirling, menacing accompaniment figure while the identity of the Knights is pounded out by the melody (itself related to Ren's aggressive theme).

 

And while this theme is indeed somewhat generic as one of the film's new leitmotifs, I think the ST has shown us how good Williams is at taking a set of themes and running them through very different variations, notably Rey's theme and March of the Resistance over the trilogy, and now with this Knights of Ren theme in this film, which strangely does not adhere to a kind of Ur-form, but is quite varied with pretty much each statement. 

[Not Mr. Big 2796]

1 hour ago, artguy360 said:

The heavy use of timpani reminds me of JW's OT style but otherwise, this tiny motif is really unimpressive and unimportant.

No it isn't

[carlborg 186]

For some reason I always associated the timpani short motif with the KoR rather than the motif Falstaff listed.

 

 

[stravinsky 136]

This little motif sounds just very uninspired. A kind of been there done that feel to it. In fact the entire score feels like that for me. A big disappointment compared to his music for Ep VIII which had two great themes. The Ach To music as well as the Rebel desperation motif.

 

[Jay 17652]

I love the Knights of Ren motif!

And how funny that every scene with them can be compiled into a 2 minute youtube video.  Clearly they were intended to play a larger role and JJ hacked them almost entirely away

 

I wonder if there's any cues in the vaults featuring more development of their music...

[stravinsky 136]

You hardly see them in the movie and no close ups. Just fleeting glimpses. Watching that clip reminded me of what utter dreck the movie was. 

        Still would be interesting to hear stuff from the vaults. I'm hoping my opinion of the whole score would suffer a seachange. How much music is there that has never been heard? 

 

[Jay 17652]

1 minute ago, stravinsky said:

How much music is there that has never been heard? 

 

Nobody on this board has anyway of knowing the answer to that question

[Remco 469]

I think the motif is cool, doesn’t need to be more than it is for these redundant characters.

 

As for Duel of the Fates, I’m absolutely convinced that these are all false rumors that originated in clickbait websites taking Don Williams’ words about the ‘Phantom’ theme totally out of context. I don’t think it was ever recorded or even planned.

[crumbs 8170]

On 9/23/2020 at 7:59 AM, stravinsky said:

        Still would be interesting to hear stuff from the vaults. I'm hoping my opinion of the whole score would suffer a seachange. How much music is there that has never been heard? 

 

Well, JW said 226 minutes of music were recorded and the film itself has less than half that much (I think only ~100 minutes of music in the film is actually from the TROS recording sessions, while another ~10 minutes was tracked from other scores).

[Smeltington 653]

On 9/19/2020 at 10:44 PM, Ludwig said:

this Knights of Ren theme in this film, which strangely does not adhere to a kind of Ur-form, but is quite varied with pretty much each statement. 

 

Spot on! I was going to mention that too. I love that the tune is a little different every time. If you recall the theme in your head, your idea of it is compiled from all these variations in the score rather than one definitive concert or end credits rendition, much like a lot of the themes from the LotR films.

 

Not sure why people are comparing it to any of the major themes, since it's not meant to fit that capacity. This is one of those ideas like Boba Fett's motif that doesn't need to be fleshed out any more than it is. And unlike many other minor themes from this trilogy, I was happy that this one was used at every opportunity and was easy to identify even on the first viewing of the film.

 

The simplicity of the theme and the intensity of most of its arrangements gives it an urgent feel of menace. It suggests the kind of imminent danger that would trigger a fight or flight response from the heroes. MOVE! The Knights of Ren are gonna stomp your ass. Of course this is one of the many, many cases where Williams conveyed what the filmmakers should have conveyed better, but didn't, so he had to help them (since Knights of Ren don't do anything in the film).

 

The straightforward brutality of this theme is a great foil to the other new villain theme, Anthem of Evil, which has a more subdued, regal feel that suggests Palpy's more distant, scheming, behind-the-scenes type of threat.

[gkgyver 1562]

If you didn't tell me that was supposed to be a motif attached to something, I would have never guessed it had any sort of significance. 

As others noted, it's a generic Williams brass outburst. 

Considering he used to write impressive brass fanfares like the end of Anakin's Dark Deeds as a one-and-done just thrown in, this motif is a bit dire. 

[SilverTrumpet 119]

It almost feels like he didn't even think of it as a theme or motif, but it was just the mood he felt when those guys appeared on screen so he wrote it down.

[Falstaft 1196]

On 9/25/2020 at 9:53 AM, Remco said:

As for Duel of the Fates, I’m absolutely convinced that these are all false rumors that originated in clickbait websites taking Don Williams’ words about the ‘Phantom’ theme totally out of context. I don’t think it was ever recorded or even planned.

 

Your skepticism is warranted, but all I can say is I have it on good authority that, at minimum, DotF was performed -- possibly as part of an alternate End Credits suite that never materialized.

[Muad'Dib 1258]

2 hours ago, Falstaft said:

 

Your skepticism is warranted, but all I can say is I was told from someone directly involved with the TROS recording sessions that, at minimum, DotF was performed -- possibly as part of an alternate End Credits suite that never materialized.

 

Holy shit!

[Nick Parker 2841]

5 hours ago, Falstaft said:

 

Your skepticism is warranted, but all I can say is I was told from someone directly involved with the TROS recording sessions that, at minimum, DotF was performed -- possibly as part of an alternate End Credits suite that never materialized.

 

Orchestra members' and involved Lucasfilm/ recording studio staff's homes shortly after JWFan reads this:

 

 

[Remco 469]

16 hours ago, Falstaft said:

 

Your skepticism is warranted, but all I can say is I was told from someone directly involved with the TROS recording sessions that, at minimum, DotF was performed -- possibly as part of an alternate End Credits suite that never materialized.

Oh wow, I really had no idea! Thanks for sharing