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Any music by JW you wish he had done differently?


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Low energy effort? The score to The Last Jedi would give many a great composer a run for their money!

I thought the recent message board update was supposed to get rid of this bug.

Any Star Wars (or any other for that matter) music by JW you wish he had done differently?  For me, I wished the final seconds of TROS would have wrapped up more themes since that is the final seconds

Sometimes I wished that John would have asked his son, Joseph, to write out some cues for Chamber of Secrets, Attack of The Clones and Catch Me If You Can, you know like Joel Goldsmith did for his dad's work on Star Trek: First Contact, Peter Bernstein on Elmer's score for Wild Wild West, and Andrea Morricone did with his dad on Cinema Paradiso. You know, help him and save some time while writing very BIG pictures to score and additional music for few more Harry Potter movies. I kinda thought of that since I've read that liners note of Jerry Goldsmith's score for Star Trek First Contact

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In continuing off desires on how to have done the end credits for TROS differently, it kills me that Williams didn't cease the opportunity to give us a Rey's Theme 2.0 of sorts to tie up the entirety of her theme in a nice bow as well as to comment on how much she as a character has changed. The theme itself gets such a workout throughout the film, what with all the numerous new variations and exciting new areas the theme is taken, that it is a big headscratcher on my end that what we get instead for the end credits is more or less what we got in the TFA end credits. I heard the first few bars of that opening build in the theater and I was really preparing myself for something special. He could have even played around a bit with the thematic connection between the TROS A-theme and her theme during the credits given how they follow one another in the finale. 

 

On 9/23/2020 at 2:51 PM, igger6 said:

Personally, I wish "The Birth of the Twins" had had at least some nod toward any of the three character themes that existed for Luke and/or Leia by that point. 

 

At least they each get their singular themes mentioned when they are dropped off at the destinations that will ultimately shape who they are as we encounter them in the following film. The lack of a musical mention for their brother/sister relationship used to bother me, but I later came to accept it as I feel like Williams intended for that to be the thematic representation of their relationship as siblings as they understand it, not the audience. It is not until that understanding emerges between the two that the theme can play and, well, they're not quite there yet in Episode III. The theme I also thinks acts as a commentary on how their relationship has evolved, and their relationship in ROTS is needless to say only just beginning. 

 

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6 hours ago, NewBlueEyes said:

Sometimes I wished that John would have asked his son, Joseph, to write out some cues for Chamber of Secrets, Attack of The Clones and Catch Me If You Can, you know like Joel Goldsmith did for his dad's work on Star Trek: First Contact, Peter Bernstein on Elmer's score for Wild Wild West, and Andrea Morricone did with his dad on Cinema Paradiso. You know, help him and save some time while writing very BIG pictures to score and additional music for few more Harry Potter movies. I kinda thought of that since I've read that liners note of Jerry Goldsmith's score for Star Trek First Contact

 

Well, Joseph has done a number of things for his dad's scores - like in RETURN OF THE JEDI or A.I. But it's mostly things with an electronic or pop-infused style, or lyrics. I'm not sure Joseph is up to the task of writing elaborate orchestral music; at least there's been nothing in his work that suggests this, not even his own score work like the TV series MIRACLES. So he's not quite on Joel Goldsmith or Peter Bernstein's level in that sense.

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4 minutes ago, Bespin said:

I wish he wrote the score of The Sugarland Express himself, instead of letting Toots Thielemans improvising all his solos, so he would be proud to release it today.

 

The harmonica is mostly present in the theme. Most of the score is shuffling percussion-type music that Thielemans was not involved with. I'm guessing that is the real reason for why he doesn't want it released; i.e. the absence of musical interest. But he's wrong, of course. It's kinda interesting, and deserves to be out there - if only for the historical significance alone.

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1:43 - 1:46 always stuck out to me as ill judged; JW is usually good with counterpoint, but here it sounds like he just couldn't be bothered!:

 

 

Also - and I realise this is quite subjective - I think the Schindler's List soundtrack is too sentimental. It is lovely music on its own, but I don't see the connection between it and my understanding of the events upon which the film is based. The only track which I feel comes close to capturing the tone is:

 

 

As for the other 150 hours of JW music...can't really fault it! :john:

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16 hours ago, theBT said:

 

What the hell? 

JFKs, Nixons and Shindlers are nice, probably just in the top 100 

He should have skipped the whole 90's no wonder he was done and wanted to retire. 

 

I think the 90's are my favorite decade of JWs output

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On 9/26/2020 at 2:48 PM, Romão said:

 

I think the 90's are my favorite decade of JWs output


no way for me. I much prefer the 70, 80 and 2010‘s to that decade, where in my opinion he  did not know in which direction to develop, tried a lot of new things which mostly did not work very well (electronic stuff), and I considered more soundtracks misses than hits. Luckily something changed, first partially with Episode 1 in 1999 and HP in 2001, and then again in 2010 with Tintin and War Horse, where he found his true voice again. I 

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2 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

:lol2:

 

We can just agree to disagree. But it is not a very mature or polite reaction to just laugh at a reasoned opinion. 

51 minutes ago, Jay said:

Instead of ranking calendar decades against each other, what if you split the options at a different point?

Say 55-64 vs 65-74 vs 75-84 vs 85-94 vs 95-04 vs 05-14

 

This way is too easy, 75-84 wins of course. 

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5 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Oh, I thought it was a joke.

 

Then i would have included a smiley. I honestly had always problems with the mostly cheap and jarring sounding electronics in JW soundtracks. Only at the end of the 90s he seemed to have managed a grasp at a Intelligent and creative use of them, e.g some parts of Sleepers are quite good. I find that strange since he showed in Witches of Eastwick already a better use of electronics than in most soundtracks in the decade afterwards. 

 

So to get back on topic, the one general thing I would have liked JW to compose different was a much more restrained an cultivated use of electronics in some of his soundtracks. 

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I wish he hadn’t re-orchestrated the transition from the finale score cue to the end credits of (most of) the Star Wars films from Empire onwards. I much prefer the more strings and woodwind version in Star Wars compared to the brassier arrangement from Empire onwards. I do, however prefer the fuller brass hit that opens the main title crawl from Empire onwards. I don’t exactly know different it is from Star Wars but definitely some additional notes in the later version (which I don’t think changed throughout any of the later scores although I could be wrong).

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4 hours ago, Jay said:

Instead of ranking calendar decades against each other, what if you split the options at a different point?

Say 55-64 vs 65-74 vs 75-84 vs 85-94 vs 95-04 vs 05-14

Interesting.

I see the OOs as A.I, MR, WOTW,

10s , WH, LINCOLN

90s JP, SL, JFK , NIXON

80s E.T., INDYx2,  WOE, ,

70s TPA, SW, SUPE, ESB, ROTLA, JAWS, CE3k

 

Most fit the decade they were composed in.

RAIDERS and ESB are 70s scores.

The last two INDYS fit the 80s.

JAWS 2 sounds like the EIGHTIES!

I would start 80s at 1982 .

90s at 1991.

70s at 1972

00s at 2001

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11 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Except he didn't do that much electronics in the 90s, and you even like one of the scores that features it the most. So I don't see what's to complain about. :)

 

This is factual incorrect. A lot of scores from the late 80s to the early 00 feature electronics used as a "color" in some part: Always, Presumed innocent, Far and Away, Home alone, Jurassic Park, Nixon, Sleepers etc.  

 

And I honestly  don't really know, why have a milder view on Sleepers. Perhaps I have the impression that here he really tried to integrate the electronic sound into the acoustic orchestra, instead of letting it stick out like a sore thumb.

 

10 hours ago, Thor said:

 

He was - and is - generally very restrained when it comes to the use of electronics. And especially in the 90s. It was far more overt and 'hokey' in the 80s, with stuff like "Training Montage" from SPACE CAMP or the Crimebuster theme from HEARTBEEPS.

 

Those two are truly horrible, but exceptions in this time period. In contrast to late 80s to early 00, where it became more the norm. 

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8 minutes ago, Thor said:

Indeed. All of those have very organic, restrained use of electronics as colour (performed by Randy Kerber most of the time?). A criticism like that would make far more sense if directed at someone like Goldsmith.

I wish he used electronics more.

It really enhanced the scores where it appeared.

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Well I just don't like it, for me it sounds cheap and annoying. But of course, tastes are different. I was just posting my personal answer to the topic of this thread, and that's it. 

 

2 hours ago, Thor said:

Indeed. All of those have very organic, restrained use of electronics as colour (performed by Randy Kerber most of the time?). 

 

I disagree

 

2 hours ago, bruce marshall said:

I wish he used electronics more.

It really enhanced the scores where it appeared.

 

I disagree vehemently.

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Not sure how you can disagree so strongly, Gurkensalat? I mean, when compared to most other orchestrally-oriented composers who occasionally use electronics, Williams must surely be one of the most discrete and restrained. Or is it because you don't like any trace of electronic music whatsoever?

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Well, I don´t dislike electronics whatsoever, but I am extremely skeptical. I was raised on classical music and discovered Williams as an extension of composers like Richard Strauß, Holst etc. So whenever I hear an electronic sound, I ask myself, why is it here, could it not have been better replaced by an acoustic instrument?

 

I dislike most electronic sounds because of their sound nature which is grating to me. There are exceptions of really well employed electronics that contribute something valuable to the orchestration, but they are few. Mostly I find them unnecessary, cheap sounding, badly integrated and without merit. The only places I accept them are, if they contribute a sound color that cannot be produced naturally and integrates well with the overall sound, or if you want to produce a special sound that cannot be made on another instrument. For example I accept the electronic sound in the cave music in TESB, but question the electronics in the end credits of Presumed Innocent, because those could have been played on a real instrument and would have resulted in a more pleasing sound.

 

As I am writing this I realize that in essence it is a question of instrumentation. Some people dislike the (over-)use of Xylophone, for example, I dislike the (over-)use of electronics.

 

Fun anecdote: Long time I found the Vger music in Star Trek 1 by Goldsmith one of the few examples of acceptable use of electronics. Only to learn that this striking sound has been produced on an acoustic instrument!  

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Your preference is fair enough. I'm obviously on the completely opposite side; I adore electronic music in all shapes and forms and probably wouldn't have been interested in film music without it. But in the case of Williams' work, I think the discrete colours have a significance that would otherwise not have been attained with an acoustic instrument. I love the 'chilly' paranoia sounds of PRESUMED INNOCENT. Or the pulsating, 'techno thriller' ostinati in "Dennis Steals the Embryo". The use of a drum kit and electronics to mirror the youths' energy and determination in SLEEPERS (and its 'urban' vibes).

 

Being this restrained, but also with a conscious purpose, is the way to go for an orchestral composer whose grasp of electronics is limited. Goldsmith is the ultimate 'horror example' of the opposite, especially in the 80s. He was no doubt fascinated by the technology, but very rarely managed to integrate it organically in his scores. They stick out like a sore thumb, like those old people getting on Facebook for the first time and posting endlessly about nothing. :)

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4 hours ago, Thor said:

I love the 'chilly' paranoia sounds of PRESUMED INNOCENT

 

And this still sounds so good! Not dated at all.

 

4 hours ago, Thor said:

Goldsmith is the ultimate 'horror example' of the opposite, especially in the 80s. He was no doubt fascinated by the technology, but very rarely managed to integrate it organically in his scores. They stick out like a sore thumb, like those old people getting on Facebook for the first time and posting endlessly about nothing. :)

 

So I'm not the only one with this impression!

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4 minutes ago, bruce marshall said:

Goldsmith beautifully integrated electric keyboards in many sixties scores.

 

His 60s use of synths was interesting. But from the 80s onwards, it became a gimmick that completely decimated the beautiful orchestral material underneath. He was waaaaay out of his element here.

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2 minutes ago, Thor said:

 

His 60s use of synths was interesting. But from the 80s onwards, it became a gimmick that completely decimated the beautiful orchestral material underneath. He was waaaaay out of his element here.

Have you heard LEGEND.

I'm sure you prefer the TD score, but JG did a GREAT job with synth on that one.

 

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32 minutes ago, bruce marshall said:

Have you heard LEGEND.

I'm sure you prefer the TD score, but JG did a GREAT job with synth on that one.

 

Actually, LEGEND is my ultimate 'horror example'. Gorgeous, Ravel-ian music completely decimated by synth farts!

 

Don't get me wrong, I still love the score, but that particular aspect is a huge point of irritation every time I listen to it.

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1 hour ago, Thor said:

 

Actually, LEGEND is my ultimate 'horror example'. Gorgeous, Ravel-ian music completely decimated by synth farts!

 

Don't get me wrong, I still love the score, but that particular aspect is a huge point of irritation every time I listen to it.

I don’t dislike it quite as much as Thor but I totally understand where he’s coming from. If Legend were totally synth free I doubt anyone would feel there was a thing missing. I’m glad they don’t ruin the score for me, but I’d be happy to have an expanded version with synth free alternates of a fair number of cues (sorry Jerry, please forgive me...). I think he did one admit that he got a bit carried away in his experimentation at times but there was always some level of artistry in even his sub-par efforts. 

 

On the other hand, there are plenty of other Jerry scores with synths that I think work just fine. Star Trek V springs to mind. The ethereal synths for the Barrier and Shakaree are great and provide sounds that both mix with the orchestra without overwhelming it while also providing a timbre that couldn’t really be achieved acoustically.

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" synth Farts"?!😳

 

26 minutes ago, Tom Guernsey said:

 

 

On the other hand, there are plenty of other Jerry scores with synths that I think work just fine. Star Trek V springs to mind. The ethereal synths for the Barrier and Shakaree are great and provide sounds that both mix with the orchestra without overwhelming it while also providing a timbre that couldn’t really be achieved acoustically.

Great example.!!!

Music to us, " farts" to Thor

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On 9/28/2020 at 3:20 PM, Arpy said:

I wish The Last Jedi had a stronger thematic core that pulled that score together the way the Trio theme and Rey's Theme did for the other two films. I just felt like TLJ was a bit all over the place.

 

I thought the same even more about Revenge of the Sith. I must confess, I did not like the finale starting with Leia's theme. I would have liked to hear original music from this film.

And I am not such a big fan of Battle of Heroes. In the film there was a lot of great music, that I would have loved to hear in the finale from the music for General Grievious up to Anakin's Betrayal.

But these are complains on a very high level. Revenge of the Sith is still a great soundtrack, my concerns are more on especially on the finale.

 

And yeah from time to time I think, when a piece is obivously sounds too much like a copy of a classical piece. For example "Hatikvah (Hope)" from Munich sounds like a 70% copy of Smetana's Moldau. Anyway sometimes I wonder when quotes from other pieces are credited and when not. I mean in classical music it was quite common to use themes from other ocmposers and include them in their work. Sometimes you have a variation on a theme by someone. Some other time it is not mentioned. For example, Williams' "Song for World Peace" obviously quotes Richard Strauss' "Also sprach Zaratustra", but on my CD it is not credited. Probably it is too obvious. Would be interesting if there are some regulations around that or at least a state of the art. If there is some, I don't see through it. :blink:

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51 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

I thought the same even more about Revenge of the Sith. I must confess, I did not like the finale starting with Leia's theme. I would have liked to hear original music from this film.

And I am not such a big fan of Battle of Heroes. In the film there was a lot of great music, that I would have loved to hear in the finale from the music for General Grievious up to Anakin's Betrayal.

But these are complains on a very high level. Revenge of the Sith is still a great soundtrack, my concerns are more on especially on the finale.

 

And yeah from time to time I think, when a piece is obivously sounds too much like a copy of a classical piece. For example "Hatikvah (Hope)" from Munich sounds like a 70% copy of Smetana's Moldau. Anyway sometimes I wonder when quotes from other pieces are credited and when not. I mean in classical music it was quite common to use themes from other ocmposers and include them in their work. Sometimes you have a variation on a theme by someone. Some other time it is not mentioned. For example, Williams' "Song for World Peace" obviously quotes Richard Strauss' "Also sprach Zaratustra", but on my CD it is not credited. Probably it is too obvious. Would be interesting if there are some regulations around that or at least a state of the art. If there is some, I don't see through it. :blink:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatikvah

 

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