Datameister 2,037 Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 You know that action motif from "Ludlow's Demise", the one whose close relatives crop up in various other Williams scores? Minor key...fast tempo...usually triplet-based...has a characteristic melodic arc starting on the tonic, working its way up to the fifth or octave with an immediate jump back down to the tonic? I've always assumed TLW was the first time this idea showed up in Williams' work, but I'm realizing I could easily be wrong. These are the scores I can think of at the moment that use this motif: The Lost World the first two Potter films Minority Report The Last Jedi Am I missing any? In particular, am I missing any before TLW, or do we think that was Williams' first time sharing that musical idea with audiences? Tydirium 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smeltington 1,436 Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 Check this out mister: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,281 Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 Oh man you clearly missed @Falstaft's great video on this https://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?/topic/23213-john-williams-plagiarizing-himself/page/3/&tab=comments#comment-1720705 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datameister 2,037 Posted October 14, 2020 Author Share Posted October 14, 2020 Good stuff! As the end of the video points out, some of these are rather more distant relatives, but it's interesting to hear them included as well. I take it no one has any obscure but clear pre-TLW antecedents to point out? I'm not aware of any, but it would be an interesting twist. Falstaft 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falstaft 2,132 Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 11 minutes ago, Datameister said: I take it no one has any obscure but clear pre-TLW antecedents to point out? I'm not aware of any, but it would be an interesting twist. I'm really curious about this too. Granted, there are plenty examples of sort of sawing string patterns in pre-TLW Williams, but nothing with quite with the specific Ludlow melodic profile. One of these days, someone'll have to pore over the string parts in action & tension cues in, say, JP1 or Empire of the Sun to see if there are any precedents... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edmilson 7,384 Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 33 minutes ago, Datameister said: Am I missing any? You forgot one of my favorite Ludlows: the one used in The Patriot. Jurassic Shark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,281 Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 Falstaff points that one out in the thread I linked to Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falstaft 2,132 Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 5 minutes ago, Edmilson said: You forgot one of my favorite Ludlows: the one used in The Patriot. Such an underratedly awesome track. Brutal. Edmilson 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tydirium 1,166 Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 This is one of my all-time favorite JW motifs. I remember back in mid-2015 listening to that section in "The Quidditch Match," and thinking about how all I ever wanted is a SW sequel score that features that. Then TLJ came along and my dream came true! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,281 Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 I haven't seen The Patriot in 20 years and haven't heard the score in a long time either. I think I'll be rectifying both soon! To answer Data's original question, I don't recall every hearing this riff before The Lost World personally I think my favorite use of it after the original is in the Quidditch cues Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faleel 5,333 Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 While (probably) not a ludlow appearance, I always liked this ostinato from 1941: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,281 Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 Reminds me of Superman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falstaft 2,132 Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 Since that video, I did catch two subsequent, somewhat loose usages, one in The Post (listen especially at 3:16-3:19)... ...and one, quite loose, in The Rise of Skywalker. Will 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faleel 5,333 Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 2 minutes ago, Jay said: Reminds me of Superman Yes, very Golden Gate/Growing Up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,024 Posted January 8, 2021 Share Posted January 8, 2021 On 10/14/2020 at 7:59 PM, Jay said: I haven't seen The Patriot in 20 years and haven't heard the score in a long time either. I think I'll be rectifying both soon! 2021 expanded edition of The Patriot confirmed! Edmilson 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,281 Posted January 8, 2021 Share Posted January 8, 2021 We actually watched The Patriot in December, the first time I'd seen the film since I saw it once in theaters over 20 years ago. I thought the film was decent; Not perfect, and absolutely fell short of the potential the production had, but worth watching. The score... eh, I wasn't wowwed by it. I was expecting to be blown away after all the hype it's been getting in recent months on JWFan, but I dunno, it didn't seem that special to me. I listened to the OST album twice after watching the film and was again not super wowwed. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I dunno about expansion possibilities; It's OST was Hollywood Records so only Intrada could expand it (although of course Mondo go to expand Zimmer's M:I 2 for vinyl so who knows). But the real issue is that I think Centropolis Entertainment has some weird rights-hold on it that would make licensing difficult Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smeltington 1,436 Posted January 8, 2021 Share Posted January 8, 2021 I'm not so sure about this score either... the Patriot is the only track I skip on Lights, Camera, Music. It feels empty somehow. It's going to be a tough call whether to buy an expansion when it eventually comes out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,281 Posted January 8, 2021 Share Posted January 8, 2021 Oh I'll buy it, and hope that it changes my opinion on the score, but for now, it's not near the top of my most desired Williams expansions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,024 Posted January 8, 2021 Share Posted January 8, 2021 18 minutes ago, Smeltington said: the Patriot is the only track I skip on Lights, Camera, Music. The orchestral balance is all wrong in that recording. 18 minutes ago, Smeltington said: It feels empty somehow. It matches the movie then! Although I have to say it's fun escapism. Cue escapism debate... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smeltington 1,436 Posted January 8, 2021 Share Posted January 8, 2021 2 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said: The orchestral balance is all wrong in that recording. Well it didn't ruin the other tracks for me, just the Patriot! 2 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said: Cue escapism debate... Escapism sucks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,024 Posted January 8, 2021 Share Posted January 8, 2021 16 minutes ago, Smeltington said: Well it didn't ruin the other tracks for me, just the Patriot! Duh, I meant in that recording of The Patriot theme! 16 minutes ago, Smeltington said: Escapism sucks! No way! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smeltington 1,436 Posted January 8, 2021 Share Posted January 8, 2021 2 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said: Duh, I meant in that recording of The Patriot theme! So all the tracks are balanced except that one, you say? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,024 Posted January 8, 2021 Share Posted January 8, 2021 1 minute ago, Smeltington said: So all the tracks are balanced except that one, you say? That's certainly the worst. Most of the others are acceptable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerateWohl 4,326 Posted January 8, 2021 Share Posted January 8, 2021 I watched the Patriot in TV shortly after watching also Braveheart for the first time and was wondering about all the similarities in the story and in Gibson's character. I was never really interested in the score but the expansion might change my mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smeltington 1,436 Posted January 8, 2021 Share Posted January 8, 2021 1 hour ago, Jurassic Shark said: That's certainly the worst. Most of the others are acceptable. That's how I feel about the album too, compositionally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,024 Posted January 8, 2021 Share Posted January 8, 2021 19 minutes ago, Smeltington said: That's how I feel about the album too, compositionally. NOOO! I'm talking about the mixing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bounty95 557 Posted January 8, 2021 Share Posted January 8, 2021 "The North Star" alone would be worth buying the expansion! Edmilson 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edmilson 7,384 Posted January 8, 2021 Share Posted January 8, 2021 It's interesting to see a more mixed reaction to The Patriot here at JWFan; when I watched the movie for the first time I was totally blown away by how good the score was in context. The movie is terrible, but Williams' score is easily the best aspect of it. If I was an Oscar voter back in 2001, I'd totally vote for Williams (even though I know my colleagues would vote for Gladiator or Crouching Tiger). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smeltington 1,436 Posted January 8, 2021 Share Posted January 8, 2021 1 hour ago, Jurassic Shark said: NOOO! I'm talking about the mixing! Well what do I know about that! I'm not the man with the golden ears. 20 minutes ago, Edmilson said: when I watched the movie for the first time I was totally blown away by how good the score was in context I can imagine that's the case. TLJ for example I enjoy on the album, but it actually made a stronger impression on me in the film, because it complemented the onscreen action so well. Plus I've only heard an overblown concert piece from the Patriot and not the actual score, and I tend to enjoy Williams' scores more than his concert versions. So perhaps the expansion will be revealing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nefaeryous 3 Posted January 9, 2021 Share Posted January 9, 2021 Parts of "The 1960's – The Turbulent Years" from Nixon remind me of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artguy360 1,843 Posted January 9, 2021 Share Posted January 9, 2021 The love theme and main theme from The Patriot are both really nice compositions. The music is quite effective in the film but I'm not very familiar with the music on its own. I'd love an expanded release. Jurassic Shark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted January 9, 2021 Share Posted January 9, 2021 It's run-of-the-mill Williams, but that's still something. My main problem with this kind of Williams-scoring is how unimaginative and *safe* it is, but that's what him got the job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted January 9, 2021 Share Posted January 9, 2021 19 hours ago, Smeltington said: The Patriot is the only track I skip on Lights, Camera, Music No joke, this is my most listened to track on that album Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,024 Posted January 9, 2021 Share Posted January 9, 2021 It's still a fun suite! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverTrumpet 638 Posted January 9, 2021 Share Posted January 9, 2021 The Patriot score was one of those that just hit me the right way at the right time. I adore it. I'm day 1 to revisit it again via an expansion. Disco Stu and Edmilson 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smeltington 1,436 Posted January 9, 2021 Share Posted January 9, 2021 7 hours ago, Disco Stu said: No joke, this is my most listened to track on that album Haha well I'm happy for you! Is the same composition on the OST, or is it unique here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smeltington 1,436 Posted February 5, 2021 Share Posted February 5, 2021 I never noticed this Ludlow before! In "Dance of the Earth", from Stravinsky's Rite of Spring. Can be heard at 0:48 of the above video. The first few seconds of it sound the most like Williams, then it evolves a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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