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From what Williams score you would like to have a re-recording?


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I am just aware of two re-recordings of Williams' scores. Jaws by Joel McNeely and the Superman reconstructed score conducted by John Debney. Ok, the 2nd one was not complete. But I also was a fan of Joel McNeely's recordings of complete Herrmann scores. And a re-recording even of complete scores gives an opportunity to present a score rather as orchestral musical work than as an extracted part of the audio visual experience of a motion picture. 

So, for example I would really like to listen to a complete re-recording of all 9 Star Wars scores. Or his television scores.

Any Williams score anybody would like to see re-recorded? Or does everyone except me think, why habe a re-recording when you can get the original recording?

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In terms of re-recording entire scores, this may sound like blasphemy but I wouldn't mind the original Star wars slightly re-orchestrated for a 100 piece orchestra instead of the 70 piece they used (o

Jane Eyre, without hesitation.

Nobody will need re-recordings of any Star Wars score once Mike works his magic on them.

3 minutes ago, publicist said:

Daddy’s Gone A-Hunting 

The Reivers

Story of a Woman 

 

...all things considered.

 

I think THE REIVERS is fine the way it is. Hard to replicate that particular idiom of earthly Americana anyway.

 

But I second your picks of unreleased scores. STORY OF A WOMAN is allegedly ready to go in its original recording, but is refused by Williams for the time being. So maybe there's hope for that.

 

But yeah -- any completely unreleased score that seems lost to time.

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I can't think of any JW score I know that is badly performed, badly recorded, or that badly preserved, so I wouldn't see the point in doing it.

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9 minutes ago, Thor said:

I think THE REIVERS is fine the way it is.

 

It sounds like shit.

Just now, Jay said:

I'd love to see A.I. Artificial Intelligence re-configured and re-structured into a hour long symphony of love, loss, and technology, recorded by not-Shawn-Murphy

 

Seconded.

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1 minute ago, Jay said:

I'd love to see A.I. Artificial Intelligence re-configured and re-structured into a hour long symphony of love, loss, and technology, recorded by not-Shawn-Murphy

 

So like the OST, more or less? ;)

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2 minutes ago, Holko said:

I can't think of any JW score I know that is badly performed, badly recorded, or that badly preserved, so I wouldn't see the point in doing it.

Maybe the same reason why some listeners of classical music own 3 differnt recordings of Beethoven's 5th. Different interpretation, intonation etc.

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1 minute ago, publicist said:

It sounds like shit.

 

It's not sparkling sound or anything, but it's OK. I think the value of better sound will come at the cost of the intuitive playing in the original recording (all the banjos, jew's harps, guitars and what have you).

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2 minutes ago, Thor said:

 

So like the OST, more or less? ;)

 

No, not at all.  The OST is a very poorly done re-structuring of that score

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2 minutes ago, Thor said:

 

It's not sparkling sound or anything, but it's OK. I think the value of better sound will come at the cost of the intuitive playing in the original recording (all the banjos, jew's harps, guitars and what have you).

 

It's clipped, in a tinny 60's kind of way. The worst kind of sound. The old Blue Max was the same, both were by Sony, but unfortunately it isn't their fault. These recordings just sound bad. If I compare it to similar Schifrin scores of the time, like 'Cool Hand Luke', the difference is striking. 

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4 minutes ago, Jay said:

No, not at all.  The OST is a very poorly done re-structuring of that score

 

He, he...just jankin' your chain a bit.

 

But if we're being serious, I obviously disagree. I think the OST is a fantastic restructuring of that score - a proper tone poem!

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2 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

What about ROTJ? Most of the climax doesn't sound that good :( .

Sigh... once again, only because some moron clipped and DNRed the SE to hell and the other approving morons didn't mind. There's nothing wrong with the recording or the sources, it sounds fine in the film and great on the demaster. It just has to be redone by somebody with ears.

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I mean, what I also expect from a re-recording is higher tonal consistancy of the whole score. Due to requirements of single scenes some pieces sometimes sound mixed differently than the rest. That is why I hardly manage to listen all the way through Empire of the Sun. 

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I've never listened to Empire of the Sun and thought that some cues sounded like they were recorded differently than other cues.  Can you give more specific examples of what you're talking about?

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3 minutes ago, publicist said:

 

It's clipped, in a tinny 60's kind of way. The worst kind of sound. The old Blue Max was the same, both were by Sony, but unfortunately it isn't their fault. These recordings just sound bad. If I compare it to similar Schifrin scores of the time, like 'Cool Hand Luke', the difference is striking. 

 

Sure, I agree...at least to a certain extent. I just think that you'd encounter the "Vangelis syndrome" in this case, i.e. a person gets access to the same type of equipment as he uses, but fails to recapture or even reinterpret the music in a good way....like the BSX version of THE BOUNTY. So if you put together a rag tag band of instruments that mirrored the original, you'd face a number of challenges in terms of intuitive playing; something that - for this type of ensemble - tends to happen 'on the spot', in a given space and time. Orchestral scores are easier to re-interpret that way.

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Just now, Jay said:

I've never listened to Empire of the Sun and thought that some cues sounded like they were recorded differently than other cues.  Can you give more specific examples of what you're talking about?

While I was writing this I was also thinking my Impression of inconsistency might not come from different mixing but from the big musical variety in the score. Therefor my statement might be wrong. But another aspect what I would expect from a re-recording is a more natural sound as an orchestral work. Soundtracks especially nowadays often sound very studio mixed. They don't necessarily sound like all musicians in one room making music. 

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Star Wars: A New Hope

The Empire Strikes Back

Return of the Jedi

 

A want new complete recordings of what they actually play in live Concert Films.

 

Clean live recordings of the music as they arranged it for the concerts, you know without any edits. I want that SO BADLY.

 

I think the Star Wars Original Trilogy is the most edited score JW has ever released on disc. Well, I don't know if it's factual, but it always sounded like that to me.  Moreover, it surely was a little "challenge" to create new partitions for those concerts, because they are so many edits in the final movies.

 

I just think about the finale of ESB (for the last scene)... the version heard in the movie (which is an edit using a bit of a Yoda themed cue, I don't remember which one) never existed on paper written like that. But for the concert, they had to wrote that "arrangement", well I think they reproduced that edit. Did they?

 

1 hour ago, publicist said:

It sounds like shit.

 

No No No. You say that because you never heard the Canadian release of that score, it sounds so much better than the original release.

 

R-10473440-1577556523-2207.jpeg.jpg

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1 hour ago, Jay said:

In terms of re-recording entire scores, this may sound like blasphemy but I wouldn't mind the original Star wars slightly re-orchestrated for a 100 piece orchestra instead of the 70 piece they used (or whatever the numbers are) and re-recording it with the current LSO :)

 

I don't need any reorchestrations, but ever since The Last Jedi, I'd love to hear a good modern recording of the full OT. I've just never been a big fan of the harsh acoustics of the original recordings. Plus those muted horns in TIE Fighter Attack are ugly, LSO or not.

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2 hours ago, Marian Schedenig said:

 

I don't need any reorchestrations, but ever since The Last Jedi, I'd love to hear a good modern recording of the full OT. I've just never been a big fan of the harsh acoustics of the original recordings. Plus those muted horns in TIE Fighter Attack are ugly, LSO or not.

+1. I wish someone would pay for Williams to re-record the OT scores with those session players and the same engineering setup, because those quotes are just beautifully played and recorded. I think the biggest difference in the orchestra size is the string counts (50 or 52 in the OT, I think, vs, 60-64 in the prequels?), and to my ears Williams' OT string writing sounds fine.

 

For some reason I don't like the crash cymbal sounds in scores like CE3K or The Fury, but that's not a big enough gripe to want a new recording. I wouldn't mind a new Last Crusade though. I don't know if it's the orchestra or recording, but it's kind of a slog to listen to that one because Dan Wallin made it sound devoid of life. The Concord box sounds a little better than the original album, but it's such a flat recording that it really doesn't help. I'd also like to hear Minority Report or A.I. recorded by someone other than Shawn Murphy, although I really do like what Mike Matessino was able to do with the expansions. I was also listening to War Horse and Tintin again last week, and the trumpets--as a section--sound off in both of those scores. It doesn't sound like Williams' writing is that much different than usual, but they so thin and sort of tinny, not all the more robust sound he was getting prior to 2011, and I'm curious as to why.

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True, now I remember that some cues have a saturation problem in the loud passages, probably due to the poor mastering in those years.  Really a bad "recorded" score... and unusual for Capitol Records... 

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2 hours ago, thx99 said:

Jane Eyre, without hesitation.

 

I thought JW's sheet music was destroyed for Jane Eyre, so both the audio elements and handwritten sketches no longer exist. JW said he had to transcribe the concert suite by ear because the studio destroyed his sheet music (probably why he started archiving his own scores).

 

Someone would need to transcribe the entire score by ear from the film stems, which means any music that was edited, dialed out or revised will never be known. :(

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9 hours ago, GerateWohl said:

I am just aware of two re-recordings of Williams' scores. Jaws by Joel McNeely and the Superman reconstructed score conducted by John Debney. 

 

There's another: Midway was recorded as well and released by Varese in 1998.

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14 hours ago, Holko said:

I can't think of any JW score I know that is badly performed, badly recorded, or that badly preserved, so I wouldn't see the point in doing it.

Um, Home Alone 2?

 

and in answer to the original poster's question, I'd love someone to re-record the HP3 leaked sheet music.

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13 minutes ago, bollemanneke said:

Um, Home Alone 2?

...no? Compare the one or two slight hitches in Preparing the Trap (I honestly can't think of any other "problems") to how frankly embarrassing a lot of Conan the Barbarian sounds compared to its rerecording.

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On 10/19/2020 at 7:43 PM, Thor said:

 

I think THE REIVERS is fine the way it is. Hard to replicate that particular idiom of earthly Americana anyway.

 

 

I'd quite like a version of the Reivers concert suite without the narration to be able to just enjoy the music (notwithstanding that I do really like the narration but it would be nice to have the option. However, I'd agree it doesn't strike me as the kind of score that would hugely benefit from a re-recording.

On 10/20/2020 at 2:53 AM, crumbs said:

 

I thought JW's sheet music was destroyed for Jane Eyre, so both the audio elements and handwritten sketches no longer exist. JW said he had to transcribe the concert suite by ear because the studio destroyed his sheet music (probably why he started archiving his own scores).

 

Someone would need to transcribe the entire score by ear from the film stems, which means any music that was edited, dialed out or revised will never be known. :(

That's miserable, a lovely score, although don't know much more there is over and above the original album.

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3 minutes ago, Tom Guernsey said:

I'd quite like a version of the Reivers concert suite without the narration to be able to just enjoy the music (notwithstanding that I do really like the narration but it would be nice to have the option.

 

Sure, a rerecording of the concert suite (sans narration) would be interesting. That particular version is considerably "beefed up", anyway, compared to the more down-and-dirty original soundtrack.

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As I said in another thread, my "if I won the lottery" re-recording of an existing score would be The Empire Strikes Back. If push comes to shove, I name it as my favourite score but it's hard to argue that it sounds as good as it could. However, as I also said previously, I would record it in the manner that classical works are performed by multiple artists, treating it like a ballet/wordless opera or (rather long) tone poem. I do understand those who grumble about some of the Varese re-recordings as the recording can be a little cavernous and the performances aren't always perfect but they make good companions. However, the time and budget limitations are occasionally obvious and I'm sure all parties concerned would have liked a bit more time to do it.

 

However, for Empire, I'd try to enlist a classical conductor (one of my favourites is Esa-Pekka Salonen but I don't know what his interest would be, notwithstanding his superb Herrmann album) and a one of the top orchestras, maybe the LA Phil, PSO, BSO or LSO. The idea being to treat it as a work of art worthy of re-interpretation.

9 minutes ago, Thor said:

 

Sure, a rerecording of the concert suite (sans narration) would be interesting. That particular version is considerably "beefed up", anyway, compared to the more down-and-dirty original soundtrack.

I'm sure the Sony recording will exist without narration somewhere but I doubt anyone would have any interest in releasing it. There's a good version with a concert band with a different narrator. And yeah, it's quite beefed up, especially the entirely new music for the horse race at the end (which is, let's face it, probably most people's favourite part) which people forget wasn't in the original score.

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I mean, on the other hand we should be careful with what we wish for.

When I look at the existing re-recording of TESB, the synphonic suite with Charles Gerhardt as conductor and the National Philharmonic. It only motivated me to listen to the original recording again with more delight. A new re-recording should be better than that. 

 

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12 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

I mean, on the other hand we should be careful with what we wish for.

When I look at the existing re-recording of TESB, the symphonic suite with Charles Gerhardt as conductor and the National Philharmonic. It only motivated me to listen to the original recording again with more delight. A new re-recording should be better than that. 

 

I always thought the Gerhardt recording was quite well regarded? I certainly enjoy it as a well performed distillation of the score's highlights in good sound (although I don't think his Star Wars albums are quite as good as his Herrmann, Korngold, Waxman etc. recordings) and it's sufficiently different in interpretation to actually feel like artistic choices as opposed to being constrained by time and economics as sometimes feels the case with the Varese albums. I'm certainly not saying the original recording isn't great, it is, notwithstanding that it could sound better (if it sounded like the LLL Superman I'd die happy lol) it's just that it's a score of sufficient quality (at least I think so!) that it stands up to being interpreted as a musical work in its own right. The recording would be on that basis rather than a slavish recreation as a re-recording. With a really good conductor, I think it would be fascinating to have it interpreted in that way. I'd even be open to JW tidying up any cues that he felt could benefit from it although that seems even less likely that the project as a whole!

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21 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

When I look at the existing re-recording of TESB, the synphonic suite with Charles Gerhardt as conductor and the National Philharmonic. It only motivated me to listen to the original recording again with more delight. A new re-recording should be better than that.

 

Yes, that's one I always think of when people say these things. Do we really want more of that spectacular mess? Great performances by competent well-rehearsed orchestras with conductors who know and respect and don't mess with the material, that actually turn out better than the original, are not exactly the norm when you look through the catalogue. A quick skip or two into the McNeely Jaws and the Debney Superman (the very little I could find of it) put me off instantly too.

 

Not that I don't love the Bride of Frankenstein rerecording, the Naxos King Kong and Robin Hood, and a lot of the CPPO's relatively recent Prometheus/Tadlow/Fitzpatrick/Raine output.

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30 minutes ago, Holko said:

 

Yes, that's one I always think of when people say these things. Do we really want more of that spectacular mess? Great performances by competent well-rehearsed orchestras with conductors who know and respect and don't mess with the material, that actually turn out better than the original, are not exactly the norm when you look through the catalogue. A quick skip or two into the McNeely Jaws and the Debney Superman (the very little I could find of it) put me off instantly too.

 

Not that I don't love the Bride of Frankenstein rerecording, the Naxos King Kong and Robin Hood, and a lot of the CPPO's relatively recent Prometheus/Tadlow/Fitzpatrick/Raine output.

I like the Jaws album but the Superman one is a bit hit and miss. I do know what you mean though, as I said, you can hear the limitations and while they should be applauded for their efforts, they certainly aren't thrilling re-interpretations, but neither do I find them as terrible as some. Although of the Varese catalogue of re-recordings, few beat Vertigo and North by Northwest, both conducted by Joel McNeely, which sound terrific and are performed superbly.

 

Most of the Naxos and CPPO re-recordings are pretty great although I find some of them a bit, I dunno... neutral, in interpretation. Even the much lauded Tadlow albums (which I should note that I really enjoy and find well recorded and technically expertly performed) but a little more personality at times wouldn't go amiss for my tastes.

 

I'm trying to avoid the whole "re-recording" argument (they're old and boring!), which is why I've tried so hard to emphasise why I would want an already highly regarded classical conductor and orchestra so it was treated like any other recording of a great musical work and not a "re-recording".

17 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

It's wonderful!

Agreed!

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By interpretation, like the Gerhardt, you mean "oh, let's just slow this section down to 20% of its original tempo, totally not because the orchestra can't handle it", "I interpret this phrase with the instrument groups struggling to keep a common tempo", "here the percussion should be a mess" and "let's disregard how the absolutely iconic very opening was written, let's do it freeflow instead of recognising the tempo"?

 

 

Generally where rerecordings or "reinterpretations" don't sit that well with me is that these film scores are not like hundred+ year old pieces where only the sheet music was left behind with some written instructions, people have been playing and replaying and recording and rerecording them endlessly, and were written for a concert hall with no specific association maybe beside general ideas in the first place; film scores re written to accompany the film and that informs 100% of the writing and tempo and orchestration and energy choices before it was even recorded, then in the optimal case it was recorded fulfilling all of those. In most cases that is for al intents and purposes the completely definitive recording, that is what the music was written for, that is how it was written, imagined, meant to be. That is what it's for, that is why it even exists. You can even hear JW's different approach to writing film score cues when compared to his concert pieces - the difference makes most of the SW OSTs very jarring, when it starts off with score cues but then immediately jumps into a totally different style with a concert piece in track 2 or 3 already. Now those, the concert pieces, weren't recorded to have that specific of an association, those were written to be played freely, maybe played with and interpreted later by others, like the classical music of old.

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