WampaRat 1,105 Posted October 19, 2020 Share Posted October 19, 2020 Catching up on “The Baton” podcast and on the Episode on Last Crusade he mentions Williams was approached by the producers of Batman 89’ to score the film but had to turn it down due to schedule conflicts. Its interesting to think what he could have produced. Elfman’s score fits that film like a glove. But what Williams score do you think we could point to that might give us an inkling of what it could have sounded like? The first score that comes to mind is perhaps a more action oriented take on his sound from “Dracula”. Maybe with some of the darker bits of “Witches Of Eastwick”added in...Its fascinating to speculate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,384 Posted October 19, 2020 Share Posted October 19, 2020 Whenever this topic comes up, I have to post Mike Verta's music for the Six Flags ride - a perfect meeting place between Elfman and Williams: Beyond that, I'm not a big fan of speculation and 'what ifs', so I'll leave that to others. WampaRat and Falstaft 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WampaRat 1,105 Posted October 19, 2020 Author Share Posted October 19, 2020 Ah yeah. This is a terrific piece. Great adaptation of Elfman’s themes filtered through “Williams-esque” orchestration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edmilson 7,259 Posted October 19, 2020 Share Posted October 19, 2020 A modern Williams score for Batman probably would sound like a mix of WotW, Minority Report and Prisoner of Azkaban, but in the late 80s... Maybe something like Dracula and The Fury? WampaRat and artus_grayboot 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faleel 5,278 Posted October 19, 2020 Share Posted October 19, 2020 Somethi between Dracula/Fury, TOD, TLC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,082 Posted October 19, 2020 Share Posted October 19, 2020 49 minutes ago, WampaRat said: What if Williams HAD scored Batman ‘89? It would have been a much more interesting score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,042 Posted October 19, 2020 Share Posted October 19, 2020 53 minutes ago, Thor said: Whenever this topic comes up, I have to post Mike Verta's music for the Six Flags ride - a perfect meeting place between Elfman and Williams: Huh. I had never heard that before but just listened and it didn't sound very Williams-y to me >shrug< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,384 Posted October 19, 2020 Share Posted October 19, 2020 Really? I think it sounds spot-on Williams in between the Elfman themes. Not surprising either, since Verta is one of the best Williams pastiche composers in the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WampaRat 1,105 Posted October 19, 2020 Author Share Posted October 19, 2020 I wonder if Williams would have leaned into the “Herrman-esque” vibe that Elfman channeled. Especially since he did it in the Fury. But I bet by that point in his career he would have done his own thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheUlyssesian 2,467 Posted October 19, 2020 Share Posted October 19, 2020 I actually think Williams might not have taken as dark an approach as Elfman. I still think it would have been slightly on the brighter side. SteveMc 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artguy360 1,839 Posted October 19, 2020 Share Posted October 19, 2020 I've said before that The Chamber of Secrets theme almost sounds like a JW Batman theme. I think Dracula and The Fury could work as a JW temp track to Batman 89. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted October 20, 2020 Share Posted October 20, 2020 I'm glad he didn't. Fabulin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bayesian 1,348 Posted October 20, 2020 Share Posted October 20, 2020 If the producers had managed to get Williams, would Burton have fought for Elfman? They’d already done two movies together and built a good working relationship. Or would he have been happy to work with Williams? It’s fun to think about what might have been, although I would hate to lose what Elfman wrote. And I have no desire to imagine what Batman Returns would have sounded like, or in what ways Williams’ ‘90s trajectory might have changed after Batman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew 590 Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 This was during the time that Williams was using Dan Wallin as his recording engineer. I don't even want to think about what it would have sounded like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faleel 5,278 Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 12 minutes ago, Drew said: This was during the time that Williams was using Dan Wallin as his recording engineer. I don't even want to think about what it would have sounded like. He could have used Shawn Murphy ala Empire of the Sun.... Or Armin Steiner ala Born on the Fourth of July. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mstrox 6,612 Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 Williams would probably have leaned harder on the Prince material artus_grayboot 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not Mr. Big 4,621 Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 It would have sounded like Danny Elfman in the same way that Far and Away sounded like Horner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Guernsey 2,220 Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 On 10/19/2020 at 10:11 PM, Thor said: Whenever this topic comes up, I have to post Mike Verta's music for the Six Flags ride - a perfect meeting place between Elfman and Williams: Beyond that, I'm not a big fan of speculation and 'what ifs', so I'll leave that to others. That is pretty great stuff... and I can hear bits of Williams, the opening triplet figures in particular. All the more impressive since Elfman has his descending triplets thing and yet while the rhythm is clearly the same, the usage is pretty identifiable to each composer. Dare I ask if there's a way of purchasing this? I'm pretty sure it was posted on the Williams pastiche thread and I remember wanting to add it to my library then (along with a few others). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerateWohl 4,278 Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 I am sure it would have been a more interesting score. Danny Elfman at that time was concerning soundtrack composition a solid craftsman, but Williams already an artist. When I listen to the batman soundtrack album I usually switch it off after about 15 minutes because I am bored. Different for the Batman Returns score which is much better. But Elfman became for me much more interesting from the time on when he scored spiderman. And I mentioned it before, when it comes to comparing Williams and Elfman, I really regret that Elfman never scored one of the Harry Potter sequels. His sound and theme writing would have been a perfect fit. Double Trouble from the prisoner of Askaban sounds like a lost track from "Nightmare before Christmas" anyway. He should have taken over from HP4 to my mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,384 Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 12 hours ago, Tom Guernsey said: Dare I ask if there's a way of purchasing this? I'm pretty sure it was posted on the Williams pastiche thread and I remember wanting to add it to my library then (along with a few others). Yes, I've posted the clip a couple of times. Alas, I'm not aware of any physical purchasing options. Maybe it's sold at the Six Flags park? Sometimes, these things are. Verta used to have a site where you could hear a lot of his music (both the pastiche stuff and other things), but it appears to be under construction at the moment. So you'd have to go to SoundCloud, Youtube and the like. I heartily recommend his score to FORBIDDEN WARRIOR, however, if you can find it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holko 9,397 Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 3 hours ago, GerateWohl said: Double Trouble from the prisoner of Askaban sounds like a lost track from "Nightmare before Christmas" anyway. Damn you! Now I'll never unhear "Halloween, Halloween, Double Halloween..." GerateWohl and Bayesian 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Guernsey 2,220 Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 13 minutes ago, Thor said: Yes, I've posted the clip a couple of times. Alas, I'm not aware of any physical purchasing options. Maybe it's sold at the Six Flags park? Sometimes, these things are. Verta used to have a site where you could hear a lot of his music (both the pastiche stuff and other things), but it appears to be under construction at the moment. So you'd have to go to SoundCloud, Youtube and the like. I heartily recommend his score to FORBIDDEN WARRIOR, however, if you can find it. Thanks Thor. I’ll check them out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 11,956 Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 On 10/19/2020 at 11:24 PM, Edmilson said: A modern Williams score for Batman probably would sound like a mix of WotW, Minority Report and Prisoner of Azkaban, but in the late 80s... Maybe something like Dracula and The Fury? It would sound like The Book Thief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bollemanneke 3,308 Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 If JW had done it, I would probably remember more than five notes and care about the score. Jurassic Shark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 11,956 Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 2 minutes ago, bollemanneke said: If JW had done it, I would probably remember more than five notes and care about the score. He'd write a kick-ass five-note motif. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerateWohl 4,278 Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 As I remember the Batman score it is the five notes batman motif (three fast notes up, two down slow) in an endless loop with the instrumentation of the Simpsons' main theme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,384 Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 11 minutes ago, GerateWohl said: As I remember the Batman score it is the five notes batman motif (three fast notes up, two down slow) in an endless loop with the instrumentation of the Simpsons' main theme. Then you should listen again. I can't recognize anything of what you describe in the actual score. The Batman theme is used relatively sparingly, and it has many other musical setpieces (most prominently the goosebump-inducing "Descent Into Mystery") that have nothing to do with the theme. And The Simpsons? I can't hear any Simpsons in the score whatsoever. It's full-on Wagnerian gothic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerateWohl 4,278 Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 4 minutes ago, Thor said: Then you should listen again. I can't recognize anything of what you describe in the actual score. The Batman theme is used relatively sparingly, and it has many other musical setpieces (most prominently the goosebump-inducing "Descent Into Mystery") that have nothing to do with the theme. And The Simpsons? I can't hear any Simpsons in the score whatsoever. It's full-on Wagnerian gothic! Sure I exagerated. I am just listening to it and I remember the relatively short theme was for my impression repeated a little bit too often. And, yes the roof fight was the piece that reminded me especially to The Simpsons. At least I am sure, if Williams would have done the score it would have been less repetitive. We might have got a rich at least 3 parts main theme and a beautiful secondary theme plus a recongizable action theme and a dedicated love theme apart from Prince's Scandalous. I agree, there is more to explore in Elfman's score as I am listening to it right now. After I had the Batman Returns score I never listened to the first one again. I even rather listened to Goldenthal's "Batman Forever" score than the first Batman score. Simply, the theme does not give me much. But it works in the film. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,384 Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 We might disagree on the merits of BATMAN, but we seem to agree on the merits of BATMAN RETURNS -- which blows its predecessor out of the water! GerateWohl 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 11,956 Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 36 minutes ago, Thor said: BATMAN RETURNS -- which blows I'm inclined to agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,384 Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 No, come on. You don't mean that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not Mr. Big 4,621 Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 2 hours ago, bollemanneke said: If JW had done it, I would probably remember more than five notes and care about the score. You can't even remember the sixth note?? Jurassic Shark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edmilson 7,259 Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 I'm also on team "Batman Returns > Batman", but I haven't listened to both scores in years. I hope to rectify this on the next few weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 11,956 Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 1 hour ago, Thor said: No, come on. You don't mean that. Have I ever made a joke on this forum? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,384 Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 You know I don't have a sense of humour. Jurassic Shark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trumpeteer 302 Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 I am happy to see all the comments that have sprung from the information I gave on my podcast about Williams almost scoring "Batman." I never tried to ponder what the music would sound like, but I do believe Burton would have fought for Danny Elfman, unsuccessfully. The problem is that Jon Peters was the Harvey Weinstein of his day (minus the sex stuff) and no one said no to him. So, if Jon Peters had gotten John Williams that was the final decision. That is also part of the reason Prince got involved. Burton caved in to demands that Prince write songs and he has said often that he regrets that decision. Bayesian and artus_grayboot 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 On 10/20/2020 at 8:59 AM, Marian Schedenig said: It would have been a much more interesting score. Bayesian 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveMc 2,674 Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 Williams would have written a Batman theme like Yoda's Theme, with a darker portion and a quirkier portion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oomoog the Ecstatic 314 Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 In this dystopia of Gotham... The bleak and hopeless villain theme is represented by power brass. Coming to save the night, the high winds like bats screech in procession. Overall summary: TheUlyssesian 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,384 Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 On 10/24/2020 at 5:42 AM, Trumpeteer said: I am happy to see all the comments that have sprung from the information I gave on my podcast about Williams almost scoring "Batman." Actually, I remember talk and buzz about this in the 90s, so it's old information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Ludwig 1,120 Posted October 25, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted October 25, 2020 Might it have sounded like this? "Sir Francis and the Unicorn" from Tintin works amazingly well (even with my couple of small edits)! The Illustrious Jerry, ragoz350, Holko and 4 others 4 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Fabulin 3,505 Posted October 25, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted October 25, 2020 Elfman's score to Batman is one of those I would least want to let go, even if it was to be replaced by a top 20 or 25 Williams score. There is a certain wild, simpler (yet still complex!) boldness in Elfman's music. All the wacky percussioning, playing ball with the main theme, unashamed hammering with various instrumental effects... and the instrumental choices are such a unique combination, that I fear Williams in comparison would tame it much more into the general symphony orchestra mold. That being said, @Ludwig's example shows quite well what might have been. Oomoog the Ecstatic, Ludwig and Jay 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oomoog the Ecstatic 314 Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 4 hours ago, Ludwig said: Might it have sounded like this? "Sir Francis and the Unicorn" from Tintin works amazingly well (even with my couple of small edits)! This is cute! I think some of the clips I posted would work really well too, especially the third one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,306 Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 If Williams had scored Batman I would have had one more CD in my collection. And I would be able to hum the theme today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerateWohl 4,278 Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 My issue with Elfman/Burton collaborations of that period is, that the movies and the music flow over from irony. Often even unfunny bitter irony. That gave me hardly any touch point for emotional identification or empathy. That made the music often somehow feel superficial to me. Technically brillant maybe but superficial. Cinematically it might be a good way to approach Batman. And therefore Elfman always was the better choice for Burton movies. A perfect match. But Williams is rather the expert for emotional depths. Therefore not the best choice for the early Burton. Oomoog the Ecstatic 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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