Thor 7,478 Posted November 6, 2020 Share Posted November 6, 2020 4 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said: OK, but that doesn't bother you in other OSTs. Yes. An OST should always be representative of the score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theMaestraX 106 Posted November 6, 2020 Share Posted November 6, 2020 I'm over that now. Shame it's not as if I'm in therapy or something.....ooops yes I am. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,177 Posted November 6, 2020 Share Posted November 6, 2020 5 hours ago, Thor said: An OST should always be representative of the score. The key word here being "should". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,478 Posted November 6, 2020 Share Posted November 6, 2020 1 hour ago, Marian Schedenig said: The key word here being "should". The key is "re" in representative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,033 Posted November 6, 2020 Author Share Posted November 6, 2020 What about those instances when the OST fails to be a good representation of the score? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,478 Posted November 6, 2020 Share Posted November 6, 2020 Just now, Jurassic Shark said: What about those instances when the OST fails to be a good representation of the score? Then that's a shame. Like those "songtracks" that only have a single score cut or two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,033 Posted November 6, 2020 Author Share Posted November 6, 2020 A good thing we have expanded releases then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,478 Posted November 6, 2020 Share Posted November 6, 2020 For those types of releases, sure. I prefer to call them 'score-only' releases, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,033 Posted November 6, 2020 Author Share Posted November 6, 2020 But there's certainly also score-only OSTs that fail to be a good representation of the score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,478 Posted November 6, 2020 Share Posted November 6, 2020 Sure. But in this particular case, I was talking about the 'songtracks'. LPs like TOM SAWYER and GOODBYE MR. CHIPS are representative of Williams' arrangement skills, but not of the score. As such, I need the versions that contain the score bits too. Normally a representative selection of this material would do, but in both of those cases, the score portion is relatively small, so I think I have most, if not all of the tracks in my iTunes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,033 Posted November 6, 2020 Author Share Posted November 6, 2020 I agree about that. But what do you do when an OST isn't a good representation of the score, by your own standards? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Penna 3,675 Posted November 6, 2020 Share Posted November 6, 2020 Thor complaining about not enough music? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,478 Posted November 6, 2020 Share Posted November 6, 2020 16 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said: I agree about that. But what do you do when an OST isn't a good representation of the score, by your own standards? I tend not to think about it, and just enjoy it as is. But I would condone an expansion in such instances, providing it's arranged for listening, of course. I'm trying to think of an example, but it's not easy as I pay so little attention to the film's music when I listen to soundtracks. Maybe Vangelis' ALEXANDER, which omits a couple of central themes - so you might make a case it's not 'representative'. I love the OST as is, but I wouldn't mind a slightly longer version with those themes incorporated. I can think of several 'songtrack' examples, though. The 'songtrack' of BATMAN & ROBIN, which contained only one score track, if memory serves, is obviously not representative of the score. However, the 50-minute score album that Goldenthal prepared (but which was never released) is. Similarly, the 'songtrack' of Arnold's GODZILLA was not representative of the score, but his promo programme was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,033 Posted November 6, 2020 Author Share Posted November 6, 2020 13 minutes ago, Thor said: But I would condone an expansion in such instances, providing it's arranged for listening, of course. I I assume you meant to write wouldn't there. 14 minutes ago, Thor said: Similarly, the 'songtrack' of Arnold's GODZILLA was not representative of the score, but his promo programme was. That score sucks in any form. 1977 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,478 Posted November 6, 2020 Share Posted November 6, 2020 10 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said: I assume you meant to write wouldn't there. No, would is correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,033 Posted November 6, 2020 Author Share Posted November 6, 2020 You would condone an expansion in such instances, providing it's arranged for listening? That doesn't make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,478 Posted November 6, 2020 Share Posted November 6, 2020 1 minute ago, Jurassic Shark said: You would condone an expansion in such instances, providing it's arranged for listening? That doesn't make sense. How doesn't that make sense? An expansion can be arranged for listening. It neither has to be complete nor chronological. Jurassic Shark and 1977 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,033 Posted November 6, 2020 Author Share Posted November 6, 2020 Oh, I'm sorry, I was reading condone but thinking condemn. My English isn't great when half asleep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Penna 3,675 Posted November 6, 2020 Share Posted November 6, 2020 2 hours ago, Thor said: How doesn't that make sense? An expansion can be arranged for listening. It neither has to be complete nor chronological. A rather large number are, but they're usually dismissed by you over length. I'd say the Hobbit 'special' editions fall under that category - they're absolutely arranged for listening, yet contain far more score than a normal release. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,033 Posted November 7, 2020 Author Share Posted November 7, 2020 Well, the Hobbit scores are boring in all of their releases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted November 7, 2020 Share Posted November 7, 2020 1 minute ago, Jurassic Shark said: Well, the Hobbit scores are boring in all of their releases. Amen to that. Jurassic Shark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naïve Old Fart 9,507 Posted November 7, 2020 Share Posted November 7, 2020 Ok, so a quick LOTR/HOBBIT question: How can the three former scores garner so much adoration from just about everybody, yet the three latter scores get so much hatred? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holko 9,499 Posted November 7, 2020 Share Posted November 7, 2020 I don't think people hate the scores, just the movies. DOS is one of the best of all 6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,033 Posted November 7, 2020 Author Share Posted November 7, 2020 Because Shore lost his inspiration along the way. I don't blame him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naïve Old Fart 9,507 Posted November 7, 2020 Share Posted November 7, 2020 Do JWfaners think that, after their falling-out, over KING KONG, Jackson was obliged to invite Shore back for THE HOBBIT, and that Shore was obliged to accept? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,033 Posted November 7, 2020 Author Share Posted November 7, 2020 Probably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post crocodile 7,989 Posted November 7, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted November 7, 2020 46 minutes ago, Naïve Old Fart said: Ok, so a quick LOTR/HOBBIT question: How can the three former scores garner so much adoration from just about everybody, yet the three latter scores get so much hatred? What didn't help was how they were presented in the films. The first score was the most present but was heavily rewritten so that the main "highlights" were: theme not written by Shore and the returning material from LOTR (often used in quite a cut and paste way). The second score is definitely more original but was somewhat undone in editing and mixing. The third one is even worse in that regard. Unlike the LOTR music, The Hobbit scores were never really allowed to be heard and therefore their impact and presence were diminished. And I imagine average fan, discouraged by the music as heard in the films, couldn't be bothered to get through the 2-hour soundtrack albums. They probably should have been released as single disc standard editions. As for the lack of inspiration, I don't know. The films themselves don't really offer the same kind of scope and feel quote scattered in storytelling. Karol crlbrg, Tom Guernsey, Jay and 1 other 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Penna 3,675 Posted November 7, 2020 Share Posted November 7, 2020 3 hours ago, Naïve Old Fart said: Ok, so a quick LOTR/HOBBIT question: How can the three former scores garner so much adoration from just about everybody, yet the three latter scores get so much hatred? My personal viewpoint: they're just not as good as the LotR scores. With almost all of the former's thematic material gone, Shore's relying on a new set of themes which overall aren't anywhere near as strong. And with the films being way, way (way) longer than they needed to be, there's more of a need for filler music. While LotR certainly has some filler scoring (almost all, IMO, in RotK), it's everywhere in The Hobbit. Naïve Old Fart and Tom Guernsey 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Guernsey 2,281 Posted November 7, 2020 Share Posted November 7, 2020 Hard to disagree with @crocodile’s assessment. The lack of the strong, unifying themes of the LOTR trilogy is a key weakness. I’ve listened to all of the Hobbit scores several times and the Misty Mountains theme is still the only one I can recollect and that’s not even by Shore (although it’s a pretty great theme and is incorporated very effectively). The comments about single disc versions feels pretty accurate. They are hard work at double disc length (hence me banging on asking for anyone who has managed to produce a one disc album edit of each as I think it might help to get to know them better) and almost kinda weird to produce two versions of each score both of which are quite long. Still, it’s Shore in Middle Earth, so feel worth persevering with... And what @Richard Penna said! Naïve Old Fart 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Penna 3,675 Posted November 7, 2020 Share Posted November 7, 2020 2 hours ago, Tom Guernsey said: They are hard work at double disc length (hence me banging on asking for anyone who has managed to produce a one disc album edit of each as I think it might help to get to know them better) and almost kinda weird to produce two versions of each score both of which are quite long. This! it was baffling from the beginning why both the standard and SEs were two-disc affairs, with differences that even we (as score enthusiasts) can't quite understand. I reckon most people would've greatly enjoyed a 75 minute OST from each Hobbit, with those few who really like these scores (I'm not one of them) buying the extended releases. And yes, when by far, the most memorable melody from the film was written by the source guys, something's gone wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,177 Posted November 7, 2020 Share Posted November 7, 2020 4 hours ago, crocodile said: As for the lack of inspiration, I don't know. The films themselves don't really offer the same kind of scope and feel quote scattered in storytelling. I would add that I've always considered the LOTR scores' strengths mainly on the narrative side rather than the purely musical side. Shore's big feat was coming up with all his themes and styles to represent the many aspects of Middle-earth involved in the story, and then combining them "narratively". And since the narrative is good and (at least on a non-superficial level) quite complex, the scores also gain a dramatic arc and thematic diversity. Also, the films are good (and the book is yet on another level, but the films do a good job of incorporating hints to many things that were otherwise cut or just glossed over, and Shore wisely carries that over into his scores), and if you've seen the films repeatedly, or even just once but are familiar with the book, you know the narrative and can easily follow the score's arc. I don't think it would work nearly as well with no knowledge (and perhaps even with only a superficial knowledge) of the plot. It has that in common with Wagner's Ring: A significant part of its long-term enjoyment comes on an intellectual level, from tracking the use of themes and how their combinations and variations carry the narrative. If I were to apply Thor's reasoning that a soundtrack album has to be completely independent of the film and the narrative, only the main thematic set pieces would be allowed on an OST (perhaps the suites from the EE credits). But that would of course not be representative of the scores, and therefore also be disqualified. These scores need their narrative (not because listening to them is in any way about reliving the films, but because their musical intent - even more than that of most other narrative compositions, I think - *is* Tolkien's narrative). The Hobbit scores simply don't have that: The book is much simpler, straighforward, episodic (which I would say doesn't fit Shore's style, but neither do the films portray that), and less culturally varied, and while I still believe that it could probably be turned into two good films by sensibly incorporating the back story that is hinted at (even if Tolkien himself wasn't "aware of the significance" when he wrote it), PJ & Co failed at that and ended up with something that doesn't much reflect the original narrative of the book, either. So unlike with LOTR, knowing the book and perhaps seeing the films once doesn't give you enough context to follow whatever musical narrative the scores may have been able to derive from the films. Holko 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted November 7, 2020 Share Posted November 7, 2020 All three Hobbit-scores were a slog to get through, plus the outsized releases didn't help any. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,478 Posted November 7, 2020 Share Posted November 7, 2020 Indeed. The only thing I remember from them is the "Over the Mountains" theme or whatever it was called. I have the MUSIC FROM THE HOBBIT AND THE LORD OF THE RINGS compilation from Silva, and that's all I ever need from these three scores. I love the two first movies, though, unlike most of my colleagues. Interesting discussion progress here -- from soundtracks you've missed to a small stint of C&C to the LOTR scores. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smaug The Iron 510 Posted November 7, 2020 Share Posted November 7, 2020 1 minute ago, Thor said: Interesting discussion progress here -- from soundtracks you've missed to a small stint of C&C to the LOTR scores. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,033 Posted November 7, 2020 Author Share Posted November 7, 2020 It's like a plague. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holko 9,499 Posted November 7, 2020 Share Posted November 7, 2020 OK, to bring it back on track - At one time, for a couple years in fact, the LotR CRs were 100% my most regretted missed purchase, they mostly sold out before I ever read the book or saw the movies. I was absolutely ecstatic when the reissues were announced and now I proudly have all 3 with the EE DVDs next to my Tolkien books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1977 1,743 Posted November 7, 2020 Share Posted November 7, 2020 I missed the US edition of TBOTFA SE and had to get the EU version instead, which does not match the US SEs of AUJ and TDOS that I have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,033 Posted November 7, 2020 Author Share Posted November 7, 2020 One of them's digipak? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1977 1,743 Posted November 7, 2020 Share Posted November 7, 2020 They're all digipaks but the US ones are different (better) while the EU one looks cheap. The EU "Hobbit" logo has gold foil but the cover itself is flat whereas the US logos match the film posters and the fronts are embossed and more chunky. The insides of the US ones from memory also look better. It's similar to the differences between the UK and US LOTR EE DVDs, the UK boxes are cheap and nasty while the US ones look premium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rough cut 1,714 Posted November 7, 2020 Share Posted November 7, 2020 This might be interesting for anybody who’s trying to “get through” The Hobbit scores. I’ve no idea whether it is representative of what might be considered “the best” cues from each score, as I’m not too familiar with them. Also, it’s much too short, I guess it might’ve been more comprehensive if the creator had given at least 25 mins from each film - this compilation gives us about 10! Still, I guess you can consider it an easy- to-access sampler, a brief overview of sorts. - An Unexpected Journey Old Friends The Hill of Sorcery A Very Respectable Hobbit The World is Ahead The Edge of the Wild Over Hill Roast Mutton Axe or Sword - The Desolation Of Smaug Thrice Welcome Wilderland Beyond the Forest The Forest River Girion, Lord of Dale My Armor Is Iron - The Battle of the Five Armies Fire and Water Beyond Sorrow And Grief Guardians Of The Three Battle for the Mountain Mithril Sons of Durin To The Death Vourage and Wisdom There and Back Again Tom Guernsey 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Scorefan 4 Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 On 11/2/2020 at 11:16 AM, Richard Penna said: I was disappointed at having missed the promo of Young's The Tower that Intrada gave out with one of his scores, years ago. It was actually the opposite. Intrada sold The Tower as a release and gave away a promo of the Core, courtesy of Christopher Young. That was well before Intrada officially released the Core. Speaking for myself, I regret not buying some of the early John Morris comedy scores La-La-Land put out. I did manage to get Haunted Honeymoon and Clue, but I missed out on the rest. I didn't really appreciate how great those releases were until they were gone. There are some others as well, including a few Goldsmith expansions I waited too long before pulling the trigger, as well as the giant 10 Commandments set from Intrada. Oh well. I still have plenty of great music to listen to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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