The Aaron Copland (1900 - 1990) appreciation thread

[Jurassic Shark 9355]

I've been thinking about making appreciation threads for classical composers that members of the forum have shown interested in. And who knows - if we "pollute" the General Discussion with enough classical music threads, perhaps we'll get our own sub-forum!

 

First out: Aaron Copland!

 

The reason I start with him, is that I'm curious about this album on Testament, where the composer guides the Berliners through his 3rd symphony, previously unreleased until 2018. Has anybody heard it? I bet you have, @Disco Stu!

 

 

https://www.europadisc.co.uk/classical/136213/Copland_conducts_Copland_-_Symphony_no.3,_Clarinet_Concerto.htm

[Thor 5812]

Haven't heard that, no.

 

Collection-wise, I only have his Trio "Vitebsk", and the "Orchestral Works" 2CD set from Decca, which covers both concert music and film music. But, as always, listened to a great deal more over the years, through other channels. "Appalachian Spring" remains the favourite, I think. Such a benchmark for all Americana since, whether for film (primarily westerns) or other things.

[Jurassic Shark 9355]

Fanfare for the Common man and its elaboration in the 3rd movement of his 3rd symphony were my entry point. But I've listened too little to his works in recent years, my eploration somehow came to a halt. I hope to remedy that with this thread!

[Thor 5812]

22 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Fanfare for the Common man and its elaboration in the 3rd movement of his 3rd symphony were my entry point. 

 

Actually, that could be mine too, back in the 90s. But not the original version, but rather Emerson, Lake and Palmer's version on their WORKS, VOLUME 1. To this day, I prefer that more. Yeah, sacrilege, I know.

[Jurassic Shark 9355]

Please leave this thread at once.

 

[Naïve Old Fart 7536]

5 hours ago, Thor said:

 

Actually, that could be mine too, back in the 90s. But not the original version, but rather Emerson, Lake and Palmer's version on their WORKS, VOLUME 1. To this day, I prefer that more. Yeah, sacrilege, I know.

Sacrilege? No! It's a fantastic version, especially when followed directly by PIRATES. It's a great one-two.

 

 

4 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Please leave this thread at once.

 

Foxtrot Oscar.

[Jurassic Shark 9355]

Well, good day Richard, how nice of you jo join.

[Disco Stu 15469]

3 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

The reason I start with him, is that I'm curious about this album on Testament, where the composer guides the Berliners through his 3rd symphony, previously unreleased until 2018. Has anybody heard it? I bet you have, @Disco Stu!

 

An under rehearsed performance, as is so often the case with these guest conductor circuit concerts.  The scherzo movement, particular knotty for the brass, is especially cringey.  The trumpets.... the horror....

 

The other movements come off adequately enough, though with certain moments that stand out to someone like me who’s listened to the symphony a hundred+ times.

[Jurassic Shark 9355]

5 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

 

An under rehearsed performance, as is so often the case with these guest conductor circuit concerts.  The scherzo movement, particular knotty for the brass, is especially cringey.  The trumpets.... the horror....

 

The other movements come off adequately enough, though with certain moments that stand out to someone like me who’s listened to the symphony a hundred+ times.

 

Glad I asked before putting it in the basket then. How's the Molto Deliberato movement?

[Disco Stu 15469]

4 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

Glad I asked before putting it in the basket then. How's the Molto Deliberato movement?

Unless you have a very particular interest in the Berlin orchestra, or are a weirdo collecting all Copland Third releases like me, you will be far better served by one of the other recordings out there by Slatkin or Bernstein or Mata, etc.

 

Not least because this wasn’t exactly a professional sounding recording, being for radio in 1970.  It’s amazing how high quality the radio broadcasts for some orchestras are nowadays.

[Jurassic Shark 9355]

1 minute ago, Disco Stu said:

Unless you have a very particular interest in the Berlin orchestra, or are a weirdo collecting all Copland Third releases like me, you will be far better served by one of the other recordings out there by Slatkin or Bernstein or Mata, etc.

 

Not least because this wasn’t exactly a professional sounding recording, being for radio in 1970.  It’s amazing how high quality the radio broadcasts for some orchestras are nowadays.

 

I don't mind less than stellar sound if it's a standout performance/interpretation, but I get your point.

[Disco Stu 15469]

So is the idea of this thread to quarantine all my Copland posts here, out of the general classical threads?  

[Jurassic Shark 9355]

Busted!

 

[Naïve Old Fart 7536]

3 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Well, good day Richard, how nice of you to join.

Any time, my friend 

[AC1 3807]

16 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

I don't mind less than stellar sound if it's a standout performance/interpretation ...

 

This is exactly the point of view of every composer and classical musician. When they talk about "a great recording" it's never about the sound. 

[bruce marshall 1259]

20 hours ago, Thor said:

 

Actually, that could be mine too, back in the 90s. But not the original version, but rather Emerson, Lake and Palmer's version on their WORKS, VOLUME 1. To this day, I prefer that more. Yeah, sacrilege, I know.

Fantastic version!

Copland liked it also😁

[AC1 3807]

He liked the money.

[bruce marshall 1259]

Emerson tells a great story about meeting Copland.

You can read it for yourself, smart alec!

[Naïve Old Fart 7536]

1 hour ago, AC1 said:

He liked the money.

It's not just about the money, Alex. Yeah, I'm sure he enjoyed his new revenue, but the E.L.P. version also brought a renewed exposure to Copland's music, and that can only be a good thing.

How many teenagers, brought up on the likes of Genesis, Yes, and King Crimson, had heard of Copland, before 1977?

[Jurassic Shark 9355]

2 hours ago, AC1 said:

 

This is exactly the point of view of every composer and classical musician. When they talk about "a great recording" it's never about the sound. 

 

Is that a good thing or a bad thing to you?

[Thor 5812]

16 minutes ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

It's not just about the money, Alex. Yeah, I'm sure he enjoyed his new revenue, but the E.L.P. version also brought a renewed exposure to Copland's music, and that can only be a good thing.

How many teenagers, brought up on the likes of Genesis, Yes, and King Crimson, had heard of Copland, before 1977?

 

I'm very much in that category. My dad listened to a lot of classical music while I was growing up, but I didn't really care for it at the time. I had to find my own path, and that was through instrumental electronic music and prog rock. Or stuff like LSO Plays Classic Rock. Or 'art rock' like ELP that incorporated classical music. I would have come to Copland much later if it hadn't been for that version on WORKS.

 

I also got a new revived interest in the composer in the late 90s or early 2000s, when I found out he was one of Elliot Goldenthal's teachers.

[Jurassic Shark 9355]

Geez, did this thread derail quickly. @Disco StuStu, you're our only hope to get this thread back on track.

[Thor 5812]

Derail? How so? We're talking about our pathways into Copland here.

[bruce marshall 1259]

46 minutes ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

It's not just about the money, Alex. Yeah, I'm sure he enjoyed his new revenue, but the E.L.P. version also brought a renewed exposure to Copland's music, and that can only be a good thing.

How many teenagers, brought up on the likes of Genesis, Yes, and King Crimson, had heard of Copeland, before 1977?

 

THE POLICE were big. " "Roxanne" was number one

27 minutes ago, Thor said:

Derail? How so? We're talking about our pathways into Cop Land here.

 Mine was easy; I rented the DVD. 😎

 

[Jurassic Shark 9355]

23 minutes ago, Thor said:

Derail? How so? We're talking about our pathways into Copland here.

 

Oh, I just saw "LSO Plays Classic Rock".

[bruce marshall 1259]

1 minute ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

Oh, I just saw "LSO Plays Classic Rock".

I really wish they would expand that one. So much good stuff is missing.

I wish they recorded " LSO Plays Prog Rock"

[Disco Stu 15469]

3 hours ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

How many teenagers, brought up on the likes of Genesis, Yes, and King Crimson, had heard of Copland, before 1977?

ELP had already recorded an arrangement of Copland before that!  “Hoedown” from Trilogy in 1972!  And then they even opened their 1974 live album with that piece.  Incidentally, Trilogy is also my favorite ELP album but this is the wrong thread for that conversation.....

[Jurassic Shark 9355]

22 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

Incidentally, Trilogy is also my favorite ELP album but this is the wrong thread for that conversation.....

 

 

It's no secret that my favorite Copland work (of those I've yet heard) is his 3rd symphony. My first Copland CD was the Naxos recording with James Judd and the New Zealanders, and I still think it's quite a good recording.

 

 

I can't say I'm that into Billy the Kid, regardless of the recording.

[Naïve Old Fart 7536]

3 hours ago, Disco Stu said:

ELP had already recorded an arrangement of Copland before that!  “Hoedown” from Trilogy in 1972!  And then they even opened their 1974 live album with that piece.  Incidentally, Trilogy is also my favorite ELP album but this is the wrong thread for that conversation.....

Er...yeah...getting back on topic...

I'd completely forgotten about Hoedown! 

 

Ps TRILOGY is good, but BRAIN SALAD SURGERY is better 

[AC1 3807]

8 hours ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

How many teenagers, brought up on the likes of Genesis, Yes, and King Crimson, had heard of Copland, before 1977?

 

As a proggy teen, I bought ELP's Pictures At An Exhibition, but I was not a fan. Never really checked out their other albums. I had a feeling they were not my kind of band. 

[Naïve Old Fart 7536]

Try them, now. You might like them.

[bruce marshall 1259]

2 hours ago, AC1 said:

 

As a proggy teen, I bought ELP's Pictures At An Exhibition, but I was not a fan. Never really checked out their other albums. I had a feeling they were not my kind of band. 

Emerson's previous band THE NICE are ten times better.

Check out the amazing " Five Bridges suite".

His best piece until the magnificent Piano Concerto!

[Thor 5812]

OK, now it's off-topic.

 

To bring it back:

 

Another Copland piece I've always enjoyed is "Quiet City". I recently did a thread on 'ethereal cityscapes' over on FSM, and that would fit in there (at least parts of it). I also like the "Lincoln Portrait", kinda the benchmark for Williams' THE UNFINISHED JOURNEY.

 

I guess I should check out his symphonies again. It's been a while since I listened to those (and I can't even remember which ones it were).

[Jurassic Shark 9355]

If only he could complete it one day!

[Bespin 6830]

Is it the Disco Stu thread?

[Yavar Moradi 1689]

His ballets are great and I also like his opera The Tender Land pretty well. He wouldn't make my top 5 American composers (Samuel Barber is my favorite, and I also adore Howard Hanson, Roy Harris, and David Diamond) but he's good. His concert works are hit-or-miss for me. I know people adore his 3rd symphony, and while I like a lot of it, his reworking of Fanfare for the Common Man in this symphony has always bothered me; I far prefer the original standalone version of that work.

To be honest I think Copland did some of his best work ever for film. He only did a half dozen Hollywood film scores (and some non-Hollywood short films) but they are all superb. He won an Oscar for The Heiress of course, but ironically that work was the most screwed-around-with and alas there is no representation of his score as originally intended (even on the Intrada release paired with The Red Pony which is as good as it can be, considering). I'd hoped Naxos might tackle it after their excellent new complete recordings of Of Mice and Men and Our Town:
https://www.chandos.net/products/catalogue/ZH 0124

But alas that never even came out on CD so it doesn't seem likely...

 

Yavar

[Jurassic Shark 9355]

35 minutes ago, Yavar Moradi said:

his reworking of Fanfare for the Common Man in this symphony has always bothered me; I far prefer the original standalone version of that work.

 

But it's got strings, man, strings!

[Disco Stu 15469]

Today is exactly 30 years since Copland died.  He’s my favorite composer who’s ever lived if that wasn’t clear.

 

I’ll take the opportunity to recommend a piece from his final, very underrated ballet titled Dance Panels, composed in the late 1950s.  This “Pas de Trois” movement is a perfect example of how he was so good at writing incredibly tender, heartfelt music in a highly personal voice without ever veering even close to saccharine or maudlin.  I think it was partially down to his near skeletal approach to orchestration, especially for the winds, which often focused on passing around shorter solo phrases rather than section writing.

 

 

[Disco Stu 15469]

Be warned: if you are annoyed by semantic hair-splitting in music do not read this post!

 

There's often discussion on what should be counted as symphonies in Copland's oeuvre.  For instance, currently the wiki page for his Third Symphony (on which I maintain the discography section) someone recently added "If the early Dance Symphony is included in the count, it is actually Copland's fourth symphony."

 

I disagree with this statement while also agreeing that in a way the Third Symphony is his fourth!

 

If we allow for the evolution of the term symphony over time, my own personal definition for the modern era would be: extended, non-programmatic orchestral work made up of contrasting sections (and/or movements) intended as a defining personal statement by the composer.  I am fully aware this opens up a whole can of worms for a lot of people 

 

Copland's Dance Symphony is in actuality a ballet suite consisting of almost completely unedited sequences from the ballet Grohg that he wrote while living in Paris (and which has never been staged as an actual ballet, but has been performed in full by orchestras without choreography a few times).  This does not meet the "non-programmatic" standard of my definition.  Nor do I think he intended it as a 'defining personal statement'.  He created this suite only because he wanted to submit something to an RCA Victor music competition in 1929 and did not have his Symphonic Ode, which he had been working on for nearly two years, ready in time.

 

For me, this is the list of Copland's core symphonic works that meet my definition above (years are premiere performances, not composition dates).  Obviously, I consider all of these essential and great works.

 

1. Symphony for Organ and Orchestra (1925) (later re-orchestrated without organ as Symphony No. 1)

2. Symphonic Ode (1932)

3. Short Symphony (1934)

4. Third Symphony (1946)

5. Connotations (1962)

 

Other than the Third Symphony (which I very non-controversially consider his magnum opus) the piece that most speaks to my personal sensibility is the Symphonic Ode, which I think is incredibly underrated.  I also consider Symphonic Ode and Connotations to be 'sibling works.'  Both are about 20 minutes long, both are cast in symmetrical arch forms, and both are in Copland's intense "laying down the law" voice.

 

[Jurassic Shark 9355]

2 hours ago, Disco Stu said:

If we allow for the evolution of the term symphony over time, my own personal definition for the modern era would be: extended, non-programmatic orchestral work made up of contrasting sections (and/or movements) intended as a defining personal statement by the composer. 

 

Shouldn't a definition of the symphony include something about development of the thematic material?

 

Can of worms opened...

[Yavar Moradi 1689]

So...Beethoven’s Symphony No. 6...isn’t a symphony, because it’s programmatic?

 

Yavar

[Disco Stu 15469]

I mean I don't consider the Alpine Symphony a symphony either.  But really I don't give a toss about Beethoven so people categorize him however they like as far as I'm concerned.

[Yavar Moradi 1689]

I don’t see why programmatic symphonies aren’t symphonies. I can understand why the Lord of the Rings “Symphony” and Copland’s Dance Symphony taken from Grohg aren’t (just marketing), but saying something isn’t a symphony just because it’s not “absolute music” strikes me as a really odd point of view and one fairly outdated as well.

 

Yavar

[Disco Stu 15469]

 

[Disco Stu 15469]

Quote

“I don’t think the Symphonic Ode has been properly appreciated yet. Personally I think it’s one of my best works."

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2016/jun/07/from-the-classical-archive-1960-aaron-copland-interview

 

Sadly, the Symphonic Ode is still not properly appreciated 60 years after that interview.  The two obscure Copland works that I evangelize for, two absolute masterpieces, are the Symphonic Ode and his Piano Quartet.

 

The Ode is loud and grand and clangorous and expansive, Copland reflecting and commenting the modern society around him.

 

The Quartet is no less intense but in a deeply inward-looking, psychological manner.

 

 

 

[Disco Stu 15469]

Here is a newly uploaded video of Brett Mitchell, notable Williams fan and @TownerFanguest, introducing and performing excerpts from Copland’s wonderful suite from his opera The Tender Land. 

 

 

[Disco Stu 15469]

Last year a new critical edition of the original Appalachian Spring ballet score was published.  Naturally I bought this new edition for study and for my collection of Copland scores.  It came with great essays and commentary about the ballet and was especially useful to me for parsing through all the different versions and permutations of the ballet and its suite form that have appeared across the decades.

 

https://sites.google.com/a/umich.edu/musa/publications/musa-forthcoming-aaron-copland-appalachian-spring-original-ballet-version

 

Anyway, here is a great podcast interview with the two editors of the new edition

 

https://newbooksnetwork.com/appalachian-spring

[Jurassic Shark 9355]

Unless I've missed it, it's about time some of the big record companies released a proper Copland box. I wouldn't mind a reissue of Sony's Copland collection collected in one box.

[Jurassic Shark 9355]

I purchased this album for practically nothing today. Do you approve, DS?

 

 

[Jurassic Shark 9355]

Paging @Disco Stu to the Copland thread.