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Is John Williams the Bach of our time?


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7 hours ago, Thor said:

Thanks! I'm guessing 'a lot of reasons' also encompass Wagner's political beliefs.

 

It certainly sounds like he means to include that aspect in his statement, also the way he phrases it: "not a particular fan of his". And the Ring is certainly not the most accessible of musical works; it becomes much more rewarding with repeated listening, and understanding the lyrics certainly helps make sense of the leitmotif and the overall "plan" (it is a very philosophical construct, after all).

 

As has been mentioned, Williams rarely sounds like actual Wagner. I'd be more surprised if he contested that Strauss had a significant influence on his music, directly or indirectly, see the Korngold quote. As far as the Viennese divide goes, Korngold was of course a peculiar case, as his father was a successor of  Hanslick at the Neue Freie Presse (suggested by Brahms, no less), and acted in similarly absolute ways to lobby for his son.

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17 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

Apart from the ride of the Valkyrie I never managed to keep any Wagner tune in my head for more than 30 seconds.


The opening with the Rhine music? The renounciation of love? The Valhalla motif? The crescendo of the Walsung motif when Siegfrid dies?

 

And that's just in the Ring cycle. Wagner was one hell of a tunesmith.

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3 minutes ago, publicist said:

Hans Zimmer sounds more like Wagner than Williams ever did

 

Yeah, I contemplated pointing this out, but some poor bugger will have no doubt conflated "sounds more like Wagner" to "holds a candle to Wagner", which would be bordering on heresy.

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23 minutes ago, Chen G. said:


The opening with the Rhine music? The renounciation of love? The Valhalla motif? The crescendo of the Walsung motif when Siegfrid dies?

 

And that's just in the Ring cycle. Wagner was one hell of a tunesmith.

 

The Walsung motif still is one of my all time favorite melodies. Spine tingling stuff

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He means that Zimmer is akin to Wagner in terms of sound, which is quite right.

 

Wagner's own writing is as melodious as they come. The underscore to something like the Ring is often telling every gesture in the action and every undercurrent in the drama with its leitmotives. Its a wonder.

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Korngold’s 1927 opera ‘Das Wunder der Heliane’ is essentially post-Wagnerian and the blueprint for his Hollywood scores. It’s really a gargantuan film score written in a time when film didn’t even exist. So yeah, I think it’s mainly Korngold who is the link between Wagner and Williams.

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21 minutes ago, bruce marshall said:

Still?!

Oy gevalt!

 

Yes. There's a rhetoric of "well, its offensive to Holocause survivors so we'll wait for the last of those to die out, and then we'll talk about it."

 

You'd think the same would apply to Strauss, who actually wrote under the Nazi regime, and not Wagner who was long dead at the time, but alas...

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57 minutes ago, Remco said:

Korngold’s 1927 opera ‘Das Wunder der Heliane’ is essentially post-Wagnerian and the blueprint for his Hollywood scores. It’s really a gargantuan film score written in a time when film didn’t even exist. So yeah, I think it’s mainly Korngold who is the link between Wagner and Williams.

 

Even Korngold is often a fusion of Strauss and Puccini more than directly related to Wagner though.

 

30 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

You'd think the same would apply to Strauss, who actually wrote under the Nazi regime, and not Wagner who was long dead at the time, but alas...

 

Wagner certainly was ideologically closer though. Strauss was probably too opportunistic, and generally too apolitical (which you certainly can't say about Wagner), but at least he tried to protect and defend his Jewish collaborators.

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5 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

Wagner certainly was ideologically closer though.

 

Wagner was an antisemite, yes; although not of the fascist brand being that fascism didn't exist until long after his time.

 

I bet you could find a ton of classical composers who were antisemitic, and it wouldn't have stopped anyone in my country from putting their music on the concert stage. But when it comes to Wagner, though...

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2 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

 

Even Korngold is often a fusion of Strauss and Puccini more than directly related to Wagner though.


True, but then there’s also the link through Strauss to Wagner, and Korngold did openly adore Wagner’s music if I recall correctly. I don’t think any Austro-German composer escaped his influence at the time.
 

 

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1 minute ago, Chen G. said:

 

Wagner was an antisemite, yes; although not of the fascist brand being that fascism didn't exist until long after his time.

 

I bet you could find a ton of classical composers who were antisemites, and it wouldn't have stopped anyone in my country from putting their music on the concert stage. But when it comes to Wagner, though...

 

Possibly. But it certainly seems like Wagner went out of his way more than most in propagating it, and also including it in his work. See the ending of Meistersinger, for example. Not that it would necessarily be out of the ordinary in the time it was set in, but knowing Wagner, surely any contemporary connotations are no coincidence. Add to that that the Wagner family was very supportive of Hitler (for which you can't hold him directly responsible, but as we've pointed out you can trace at least some of it back to him) and you definitely have an unusually obvious case.

 

On the other hand, perhaps Bruckner was lucky in not having any offspring.

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7 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

also including it in his work. See the ending of Meistersinger, for example.

 

I need to revisit Meistersinger. I don't recall it being overtly antisemitic; people have accused Alberich of being an antisemitic stereotype, but it was never that overt to me, either. He's a Dwarf almost straight out of Norse myth.

 

*paging David Lean's Oliver Twist*

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Okay, so very nationalistic, but not fascist nor antisemitic in any way.

 

Fine by me. There's probably more of an issue by way of modern sensibilities to be had with the Rhinemaidens "being faithful to whoever grasps us by force" bit.

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3 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Okay, so very nationalistic, but not fascist nor antisemitic in any way.

 

Fine by me. There's probably more of an issue by way of modern sensibilities to be had with the Rhinemaidens "being faithful to whoever grasps us by force" bit.

I find the Rheinmaidens refreshingly witty. Wagner knew how to write for female voices. And that laughing...

ROTFLMAOROTFLMAO

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1 minute ago, Albus Percival Wulfric said:

I find the Rheinmaiden refreshingly witty.

 

They certainly are that. Wagner doesn't always get enough credit as a Librettist.

 

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8 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Okay, so very nationalistic, but not fascist nor antisemitic in any way.

 

Fine by me. There's probably more of an issue by way of modern sensibilities to be had with the Rhinemaidens "being faithful to whoever grasps us by force" bit.

 

Very nationalistic in an aggressive way that brands anything non-German as inferior and to be resisted and fought. It was certainly a common sentiment at the time and looks much different in hindsight, but then that's the point, isn't it? One thing led to another, and the roots of the 20th century were already there (and had been, in part, for centuries) in, in retrospect, plain view. Pointing that out and discussing it is, I think, important, especially at a time when "who could have possibly known" is still a common sentiment in countries like Austria and when people refuse to see similar contemporary tendencies for what they are.

 

Which isn't to say that I'm in favour of banning Wagner (I'm not). But I can appreciate the sentiment of feeling uncomfortable about him and some of his artistic output.

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2 hours ago, Harry Irene said:

Comparing John to Bach is a stretch. He's more Wagner.

lol, some consider Wagner a superior cult figure.  I'm currently reading Wagnerism about his substantial and unprecedented impact on music and beyond. 

https://www.amazon.com/Wagnerism-Art-Politics-Shadow-Music/dp/0374285934

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32 minutes ago, karelm said:

lol, some consider Wagner a superior cult figure.  I'm currently reading Wagnerism about his substantial and unprecedented impact on music and beyond. 

https://www.amazon.com/Wagnerism-Art-Politics-Shadow-Music/dp/0374285934

I have that on reserve!

 

Check out the Stephen Fry documentary on his conflicted passion ( he is Jewish)  for THE RING etc

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1 minute ago, bruce marshall said:

Check out the Stephen Fry documentary on his conflicted passion ( he is Jewish)  for THE RING etc

 

I've long had this on my to-watch list. It doesn't exist in HD, does it?

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Fans of either the Force theme or Crimson Tide, here comes daddy!

 

There is a Dick Burton series from the early 80's that's entertaining enough and helps you to understand the troubled political history of a then-torn Germany. 

 

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I've seen that mini series.

Last I looked, it was oop.

 

In its own crackpot way, LISZTOMANIA presents an insightful, if allegorical, portrait of Wagner and his followers ( Cosima. Von Bulow).

 

It's often said that racism is a disease. I agree with that assessment.

If you read Wagner's deranged  writings on Jews, you can tell this is a person with a mental sickness.

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I've always wanted to see that mini series with Burton.

 

I absolutely adore Wagner's instrumental music (not too keen on the opera singing, as I have a problem with that in general), and also have no issues separating that from his political and philosophical leanings.

 

I also have to say that there is far more Wagner in Williams' music than there is Bach -- per this topic title. Whether Williams acknowledges it or not. In fact, Bach -- with his cold, stringent style -- is often the opposite of Williams.

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3 hours ago, Thor said:

I also have to say that there is far more Wagner in Williams' music than there is Bach -- per this topic title. Whether Williams acknowledges it or not. In fact, Bach -- with his cold, stringent style -- is often the opposite of Williams.

 

This is what I meant by the word rigid.

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I think people say cold because the music is so mathematical and math is cold. It is why we say cold, hard truth. Not that all truths are cold, just the concept of it being inarguable, I think. Romantic music is more inclined to find perfection through imperfection.

 

But then of course, there's Brahms.

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2 minutes ago, blondheim said:

I think people say cold because the music is so mathematical and math is cold.

 

Math isn't cold. It's beautiful.

 

Just now, Steve said:

The words "sappy" and "cold" in the same sentence with "Bach" is really ridiculous.

 

I said NOT sappy.

 

3 minutes ago, blondheim said:

But then of course, there's Brahms.

 

What about him?

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5 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

I said NOT sappy.

I know :D But some here seem to think so here.

 

 

BTW: Did Johnny ever mention Händel in an interview?

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8 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

Math isn't cold. It's beautiful.

 

What about him?

 

I didn't say it wasn't. Although 'is' and 'isn't' feel out of a place in a conversation about the temperature of math.

 

(I find Brahms to be the most mathematical and tight of all the Romantic-period composers I am familiar with. Not un-romantic, but coloring inside the lines.)

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Nobody is saying that mathematical precision can't be beautiful or moving. I'm very moved by a lot of Bach's music. Just not in the same way I'm moved by a piece of Williams music.

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The topic doesn't refer to musical style of the composers, it refers to their stature and status.

 

 

 

 

Fyi Bach was revered by COMPOSERS of the Romantic era. Liszt and of course Mendelsohnn who single handedly restored his reputation.

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