Which OSTs do you ***NOT*** need an expansion of?

[Holko 9,526]

Are the "Abridged for children" versions the only way a work should be experienced? Hell no.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

That's like people here listening to just one track on an album!

[bollemanneke 3,348]

1. I've read one abridged book and I got a bad grade because vital plot points were omitted.

2. If a film score in its complete form drags, it's because it's a bad score.

[Jurassic Shark 12,075]

17 minutes ago, bollemanneke said:

If a film score in its complete form drags, it's because it's a bad score.

 

Ah, how nice it must be to see the world in black and white.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

11 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Ah, how nice it must be to see the world in black and white.

 

Can he though?

[Jurassic Shark 12,075]

At least in black, I reckon.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

[Edmilson 7,443]

You know, I'm gonna read Harry Potter tonight. But I'll start with the Quidditch chapter, because it'll be too dull to start with the Prologue at the Dursleys house. 

 

And actually, I'll cut some parts of the Dursleys sequences, because they drag for too long. Some parts at the school, when he is having magical classes and everything, will also be cut.

 

All in name of the E X P E R I E N C E.

[Jurassic Shark 12,075]

Yeah, the book really is too long.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Shitty book anyway.

[Thor 7,504]

As always, the analogy makes no sense. In a book, you're not adapting material from one medium to another. So try again, folks - but this time talk about books adapted to film. That'll get you closer.

[Jurassic Shark 12,075]

What about ebooks?

[Thor 7,504]

43 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

What about ebooks?

 

Still a book. Just like a TV movie and a theatrical film are both films.

[Holko 9,526]

Right. But music and music are not the same.

[DrTenma 116]

Probably, the majority of scores don't need expansions but decent OST Albums. In some cases we got those but in others we got a very short representation of the work of the composer. I agree that in some cases the expansion album is less enjoyable than the short one (for instance I usually like Marco Beltrami's scores and when some expansion leaks/gets published usually I prefer the regular album).

[Thor 7,504]

45 minutes ago, Holko said:

Right. But music and music are not the same.

 

It's not rocket science. Transferring a written text from paper to ebook is a technical transfer. It requires no aesthetic adaptation. They both have the same properties. They are still words to be read. Transferring a book's story to film, or a piece of music from one medium to another, requires adaptation. They have very different properties.

 

I've used this example before, but I think the closest a 'book to film' adaptation comes to C&C soundtrack releases, would be someone putting up a camera in front of a person that reads the book from cover to cover. I mean, it could be an interesting art installation, but it's not something I'm particularly keen on seeing. I'd rather see someone adapting the story based on the visual storytelling properties of film.

[Holko 9,526]

That analogy makes no sense.

[Jurassic Shark 12,075]

25 minutes ago, Thor said:

 

It's not rocket science. Transferring a written text from paper to ebook is a technical transfer. It requires no aesthetic adaptation. They both have the same properties. They are still words to be read. Transferring a book's story to film, or a piece of music from one medium to another, requires adaptation. They have very different properties.

 

I've used this example before, but I think the closest a 'book to film' adaptation comes to C&C soundtrack releases, would be someone putting up a camera in front of a person that reads the book from cover to cover. I mean, it could be an interesting art installation, but it's not something I'm particularly keen on seeing. I'd rather see someone adapting the story based on the visual storytelling properties of film.

 

I'd see that!

[Thor 7,504]

Quote

That analogy makes no sense.

 

It's not an analogy, it's basically the same thing (i.e. adapting a book to film and adapting a film score to album).

[Holko 9,526]

The live reading would be the analogy of smartasses saying "just watch the movie and you'll hear it" as an answer to people wanting to listen to the actual complete score as written.

[Thor 7,504]

Just now, Holko said:

The live reading would be the analogy of smartasses saying "just watch the movie and you'll hear it" as an answer to people wanting to listen to the actual complete score as written.

 

The live reading example - if that is what you meant - is indeed a very relevant analogy, because it deals with "adaptation" that completely ignores the unique properties of the new medium it's being transferred to.

[Holko 9,526]

Why are you once again just refusing the possibility that a great composer can create a completely valid piece of art without any messing around necessary? Music is music and when it works great, it works great.

[Thor 7,504]

Just now, Holko said:

Why are you once again just refusing the possibility that a great composer can create a completely valid piece of art without any messing around necessary? Music is music and when it works great, it works great.

 

I'm not refusing that at all. The "work of art" is on glorious display in the film itself. When you take the movie out of the equation, however, you need to adjust.

[Holko 9,526]

2 minutes ago, Thor said:

The "work of art" is on glorious display in the film itself.

Except when it's not. And like I said, telling someone to watch the movie just to hear the music is stupid. A movie is a movie, music is music.

 

3 minutes ago, Thor said:

When you take the movie out of the equation, however, you need to adjust.

So... refusing the possibility that a great composer could create a perfectly valid work of art without any messing around necessary.

[Thor 7,504]

10 minutes ago, Holko said:

So... refusing the possibility that a great composer could create a perfectly valid work of art without any messing around necessary.

 

Again, the "perfectly valid work of art" was already created as part of the film. When you take away the movie, it's reduced to raw materials; as mere remnants of that art work. However, if you make the right adjustments, you can reshape it into a NEW 'valid work of art', this time as an independent entity. Just as a film based on a book can be its own piece of art. Same story, different pieces of art. Same music, different pieces of art.

 

Anyways....we're going in circles on this.

[Brundlefly 2,385]

Concerning Williams '75-'05

• SpaceCamp
• The Accidential Tourist
• Presumed Innocent
• Sabrina
• Sleepers
• Stepmom
• Catch Me If You Can

[Koray Savas 2,251]

16 hours ago, Holko said:

Why are you once again just refusing the possibility that a great composer can create a completely valid piece of art without any messing around necessary? Music is music and when it works great, it works great.

No, because music in film and music on album have two different functions.

 

A score can be perfect for the film it was written for, but not be interesting or listenable as a complete and chronological album.

 

Of course it’s possible for the music to be able to fulfill both functions simultaneously, but it’s not common. 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

E.T. is a prime example of this phenomenon, where the complete score without the film makes me tune out and fall asleep, whereas the OST is exciting with lots of musical variety in the way the ideas and prepurposed and represented.

[Holko 9,526]

3 minutes ago, Koray Savas said:

 

Of course it’s possible for the music to be able to fulfill both functions simultaneously, but it’s not common. 

looks in drawer with many many expanded releases that work a ton better than their OSTs

 

Yeah it is.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

6 hours ago, Holko said:

looks in drawer with many many expanded releases that work a ton better than their OSTs

 

Yeah it is.

Good for you. 

[publicist 4,643]

20 hours ago, Brundlefly said:

Concerning Williams '75-'05

• SpaceCamp
• The Accidential Tourist
• Presumed Innocent
• Sabrina
• Sleepers
• Stepmom
• Catch Me If You Can

 

The list is much longer, especially post-1990 there are only a handful of real long adventure/fantasy score that warrant a longer release. Many are too long even in their initial releases.

 

[Richard Penna 3,687]

On 11/25/2020 at 4:42 PM, Thor said:

 

Again, the "perfectly valid work of art" was already created as part of the film. When you take away the movie, it's reduced to raw materials; as mere remnants of that art work. However, if you make the right adjustments, you can reshape it into a NEW 'valid work of art', this time as an independent entity. Just as a film based on a book can be its own piece of art. Same story, different pieces of art. Same music, different pieces of art.

 

Anyways....we're going in circles on this.

 

The only thing I'd add to this neverending debate is the idea that an already satisfactory album can be supplemented perfectly well with a bonus track or two, and still retain the independent experience you're after. I think you just need to be more open to the idea of accepting 'new' music now and again, provided it's been suitably rearranged.

 

I see releases such as the anniversary Jurassic being exactly the sort of thing aimed at you. The added suites could easily have been added to the original album, and you'd likely think as highly of it as you do the actual one.

 

Just seems a shame to me that you deny yourself hearing some great moments here and there, because you don't want anything whatsoever to be done to the first release a score gets, regardless of the limitations under which it was produced.

[Ricard 2,245]

On 11/25/2020 at 5:42 PM, Thor said:

Anyways....we're going in circles on this.

 

And you've been enjoying them for the past 20+ years

[Romão 2,274]

On 11/25/2020 at 9:30 AM, bollemanneke said:

 

2. If a film score in its complete form drags, it's because it's a bad score.

 

 

I don't think I could disagree more with this statement.

 

Take Herrmann, for example. A lot of his scores benefit greatly from shorter album presentations and combining tracks. And his scores are as brilliant as they come. But the brilliance is often enhanced by having less of it. 

[bollemanneke 3,348]

And I have to disagree with that. I find his scores I know endlessly repetitive. In that sense, I definitely agree that a short presentation is better.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

The problem with your take and many others is that you equate an album listening experience to the score’s function within the film. They aren’t the same thing.

 

This is where I agree with Thor, even though I generally like expanded and complete scores.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I think some here like putting the movie on mute, then laying the score over it with their CD player switched on, so they can recreate some isolated score track experience or something.

[Romão 2,274]

15 minutes ago, bollemanneke said:

And I have to disagree with that. I find his scores I know endlessly repetitive. In that sense, I definitely agree that a short presentation is better.

 

But you say then that because his scores play better in shorter form they are therefore bad scores?

 

[Thor 7,504]

9 hours ago, Ricard said:

 

And you've been enjoying them for the past 20+ years

 

Ha, ha. Indeed. I seem to have an endless well of energy to discuss this topic, yet the sheer repetition of the arguments (from both sides) is enough to drive you nuts. It's a form of sado-masochism, almost.

[Jurassic Shark 12,075]

Just now, Thor said:

 

Ha, ha. Indeed. I seem to have an endless well of energy to discuss this topic, yet the sheer repetition of the arguments (from both sides) is enough to drive you nuts. It's a form of sado-masochism, almost.

 

Just put it all in your signature.

[Thor 7,504]

That would be one HELLUVA long signature.

 

I think the first "organized" attack I had on C&C releases was this post on FSM, from August 11, 2000. But even that refers to previous discussions on the topic elsewhere, so it probably goes back to the late 90s. If memory serves, I started the whole "C&C" abbreviation around that time. Geez, time flies.

[Jurassic Shark 12,075]

We need an expanded 20th anniversary edition of this attack.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

C&Cs are great, but shouldn't be done at the expense of the shorter album alternative. Some folks here hold onto an antagonistic ideology that old album presentations should be eradicated and be made no longer accessible. Can't side with those extremists!

[Richard Penna 3,687]

I'm not sure I've ever read a viewpoint as extreme as that on here? You can easily have both sitting side by side (literally in some cases) for different audiences or different moods.

 

If someone is simply irritated by a release existing... can't help you there  

 

The only debate I've had is the ideal timing of expansions - I see no reason whatsoever why there should be any artificial delay (i.e. outside of practical, financial, etc, reasons) to giving access to a C&C if it's going to happen. Sometimes you watch a film and fall in love with the score, and immediately want more music than the OST contains.

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

7 hours ago, Thor said:

That would be one HELLUVA long signature.

 

Use the shortened version that has been optimised for the best reading experience. And don't hesitate to swap words around.

[bruce marshall 1,315]

BLUE MAX

[Jurassic Shark 12,075]

I've never gotten into that score. It sounds like a rough first draft, missing details that could have made it a decent score.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Nobody here really "needs" film score expansions. They might just want them, but not need.

[Jurassic Shark 12,075]

How do you know?

[blondheim 1,157]

Complete scores are like complete ballets. You can listen to them without the visuals because they are highly narrative music. That being said, not all film music is A-grade material. Some of it is made against the composer's artistic wishes or to placate studios. Do they do the best they can? I am sure they do mostly but still, some percentage of films have workhouse material. Not inspired by what the composer's intent would be. A composer may fight and fight for silence because they know they can't accurately score a certain emotion but if the director insists, they must. So I do not believe all scores are inspired masterpieces. Some deserve expansion but I want what the composers wants, almost every time. At least to start. There can of course be studio involvement in that too which is why this isn't a "one size fits all" philosophy no matter how you slice it.

 

I think extremists on both sides are nuts. I have more OSTs than expandeds because I mostly agree with folks like Thor, but there are expansions I wouldn't be without. LOTR being the most blatant example I can imagine.