Saving Private Ryan vs. War Horse

[bruce marshall 1,315]

10 minutes ago, bruce marshall said:

No, there aren't . Especially since it was originally the main title for one if the greatest of all WWII films.

Check it out.

 

[Josh500 1,615]

1 minute ago, bruce marshall said:

 

 

Yeah, I hear the resemblance. Dunno, maybe it did serve as an inspiration.... I somehow doubt Spielberg used this as a temp track, though. 

[bruce marshall 1,315]

19 minutes ago, Josh500 said:

 

I just listened to it. 

 

 

Well, it's an American movie, that's why it has a strong pro-American bias. Nobody denies that. Even Spielberg himself admitted that. 

 

I know this comes as a shock to many people (Americans), but the Soviet Union defeated the Nazis, period. The Americans entered the war in the very last stages, when it was already abundantly clear that the Nazis were losing.... With the crazy anti-Russian propaganda bs going on in the US, most Americans aren't aware of that, and even if they did, they probably wouldn't care, either. 

Well, the Russians were fighting for their lives. And remember, Hitler and Stalin signed a treaty which allowed Russia to invade Poland and Finland.

America didn't have to enter the war. Nobody invaded us.

Without our entry into the war , Germany could have very well conquered WESTERN Europe.

The Normandy invasion was Canada, England and U.S. We paid a heavy price to liberate France

America entered the war in the " last stages"? We entered immediately after Pearl Harbor. US troops fought in North Africa and Italy in 1942-1943.

We had also been providing aid to England and Russia from the beginning. We were not an autocracy where a leader could take the country to war unilaterally.

The Pacific war was a horror show.

[Josh500 1,615]

On 11/28/2020 at 2:34 AM, bruce marshall said:

Well, the Russians were fighting for their lives.

America didn't have to enter the war. Nobody invaded us.

Without our entry into the war , Germany could have very well conquered WESTERN Europe.

The Normandy invasion was Canada, England and U.S. We paid a heavy price to liberate France

 

I'm not trying to belittle the contribution of the US, France, and the British in the war, don't get me wrong.  But like I said, one shouldn't try to rewrite history. Hitler invaded the Soviet Union, and the Soviets with their Red Army beat and defeated the Nazis. The Americans were simply on Russia's side. 

 

One should see the whole picture, it's not like America came and defeated Hitler, even though that's the image the Americans like to present and spread... Incidentally with movies just like Saving Private Ryan. 

[bruce marshall 1,315]

12 minutes ago, Josh500 said:

 

Yeah, I hear the resemblance. Dunno, maybe it did serve as an inspiration.... I somehow doubt Spielberg used this as a temp track, though. 

They seem to go together, musically and thematically.

Both great!

[Josh500 1,615]

1 minute ago, bruce marshall said:

They seem to go together, musically and thematically.

Both great!

 

Agreed. 

 

The beginning is rather similar, but the climax of HTTF is pure John Williams.... 

[bruce marshall 1,315]

17 minutes ago, Josh500 said:

 

I'm not trying to belittle the contribution of the US, France, and the British in the war, don't get me wrong.  But like I said, one shouldn't try to rewrite history. Hitler invaded the Soviet Union, and the Soviets with their Red Army beat and defeated the Nazis. The Americans were simply on Russia's side. 

 

One should see the whole picture, it's not like America came and defeated Hitler, even though that's the image the Americans like to spread... 

SPR is not about any of that.

It's about the Normandy invasion and the battle of France. EVERY country has made films about their war heroism- even countries that were conquered. What is wrong with America doing the same.

Let's face it, ever SINCE WWII we have a pretty horrible legacy of warmongering.😥

14 minutes ago, Josh500 said:

 

Agreed. 

 

The beginning is rather similar, but the climax of HTTF is pure John Williams.... 

Glad you noticed the similarity at the  beginning 😊

Ironically, 49th PARALLEL was a ' propaganda' film intended to spur the U.S. into the war!

 Watched today , it plays as a powerful and deeply moving allegory on the battle.between democracy and Fascism.

Criterion released it. Check out this discussion:

.https://filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?forumID=1&pageID=3&threadID=41174&archive=1

[GerateWohl 4,336]

I wrote it before. I think, one inspiration might have been Non Nobis Domine of Patrick Doyle from Henry V. It also has this pastoral character and is performed in the movie as a Hymn to fallen soldiers.

 

Biggest difference: Since Henry V as a movie is rather a statement against the senselesness of war SPR is rather meant as a monument to celebrate the heroes of war. And I think, that was part of the criticism on the film, that it is far from pacifism, and that kind of WW2 movie propagating that there is something like a "Good War" against evil. In a way that seems to be underlined by the church like soundtrack that seems to underline that something holy is going on.

Of course historically the heroes portraied in the film didn't start the war. It was Hitler and his army. Still it is worth discussing if the movie glorifies war and if yes, if this is a bad thing to do so.

Anyway, the movie is impressive in many was.

[Holko 9,499]

1 minute ago, GerateWohl said:

SPR is rather meant as a monument to celebrate the heroes of war. And I think, that was part of the criticism on the film, that it is far from pacifism, and that kind of WW2 movie propagating that there is something like a "Good War" against evil.

That was my impression the one time I saw it, and why I didn't have to think for a second, just picked War Horse over it.

[Thor 7,465]

3 hours ago, GerateWohl said:

I wrote it before. I think, one inspiration might have been Non Nobis Domine of Patrick Doyle from Henry V. It also has this pastoral character and is performed in the movie as a Hymn to fallen soldiers.

 

I doubt that. HENRY V is very British in sound, SPR is very American. And history is full of hymns dedicated to fallen soldiers. But you're right that they're both in that category,

[Steve 589]

5 hours ago, GerateWohl said:

SPR is rather meant as a monument to celebrate the heroes of war. And I think, that was part of the criticism on the film, that it is far from pacifism, and that kind of WW2 movie propagating that there is something like a "Good War" against evil. In a way that seems to be underlined by the church like soundtrack that seems to underline that something holy is going on.

Of course historically the heroes portraied in the film didn't start the war. It was Hitler and his army. Still it is worth discussing if the movie glorifies war and if yes, if this is a bad thing to do so.

Anyway, the movie is impressive in many was.

That's a typical problem of american WWII movies. Band of Brothers is also in some parts that way. Fury (2014) is maybe the worst WW2 film I ever watched.

 

For story and sountrack I prefer War Horse. As a movie I prefer Private Ryan, though. SPR soundtrack lacks the joyful moments that War Horse has. I like both scores, but SPR is more a soundtrack for Good Friday.

[Holko 9,499]

9 minutes ago, Steve said:

That's a typical problem of american WWII movies.

Their death cult (military) wouldn't have it any other way.

[Brundlefly 2,385]

10 hours ago, Josh500 said:

Hmmm, yeah, maybe. But then what about Schindler's List...? 

It doesn't really apply to the similarity I described.

[GerateWohl 4,336]

6 hours ago, Thor said:

 

I doubt that. HENRY V is very British in sound, SPR is very American. And history is full of hymns dedicated to fallen soldiers. But you're right that they're both in that category,

One reason for me seing a relation here was that to me Hymn to the Fallen sounded supprisingly british. And why write a choir for the endtitles? There is no choir in the remaining soundtrack. 

[bruce marshall 1,315]

I think the criticism is retrospective.

Following WWII, America assumed the role of " cops of the world" . We have invaded countless countries, overthrown governments and supported anti- Democratic regimes.

As a devoted pacifist, I am ashamed for my country.

But, for one moment in history, we were on the RIGHT SIDE, and helped save civilization.

So, SPR can not in any way be seen as " glorifying" war. Not if you have actually seen it ( Howard Zinn obviously hadn't when he slammed it).

 

 

Fyi Hungary was also a Fascist country and  part of the Axis along with Japan ....Italy....

Nazi Germany.

 

 

My point?

No point.

 

10 hours ago, GerateWohl said:

 

 

Biggest difference: Since Henry V as a movie is rather a statement against the senselesness of war SPR is rather meant as a monument to celebrate the heroes of war. And I think, that was part of the criticism on the film, that it is far from pacifism, and that kind of WW2 movie propagating that there is something like a "Good War" against evil. In a way that seems to be underlined by the church like soundtrack that seems to underline that something holy is going on.

Of course historically the heroes portraied in the film didn't start the war. It was Hitler and his army. Still it is worth discussing if the movie glorifies war and if yes, if this is a bad thing to do so.

An interesting interpretation.

As far as the score goes, it's more mournful than " holy" to my ears

 

As far as " glorifying" war:

I must repeat , SPR was the FIRST major film to show , graphically, what happens to the.human body under.fire.

I saw it in the first run and let me tell you- it was shocking. Nobody was prepared for the images of decapitation, disembowlment, and limbless soldiers.

How this can be called glorification, eludes me.

The soldiers were portrayed as MEN., not heroes. Many acted ignoble or cowardly.

Please try to watch the film objectively and without the baggage of anti- American imperialism.

Germany was an enemy that had to be defeated. All who helped in that cause deserve our praise and thanks.

P

10 hours ago, GerateWohl said:

 

 

Biggest difference: Since Henry V as a movie is rather a statement against the senselesness of war SPR is rather meant as a monument to celebrate the heroes of war. And I think, that was part of the criticism on the film, that it is far from pacifism, and that kind of WW2 movie propagating that there is something like a "Good War" against evil. In a way that seems to be underlined by the church like soundtrack that seems to underline that something holy is going on.

Of course historically the heroes portraied in the film didn't start the war. It was Hitler and his army. Still it is worth discussing if the movie glorifies war and if yes, if this is a bad thing to do so.

An interesting interpretation.

As far as the score goes, it's more mournful than " holy" to my ears

 

As far as " glorifying" war:

I must repeat , SPR was the FIRST major film to show , graphically, what happens to the.human body under.fire.

I saw it in the first run and let me tell you- it was shocking. Nobody was prepared for the images of decapitation, disembowlment, and limbless soldiers.

How this can be called glorification, eludes me.

The soldiers were portrayed as MEN., not heroes. Many acted ignoble or cowardly.

Please try to watch the film objectively and without the baggage of anti- American imperialism.

Germany was an enemy that had to be defeated. All who helped in that cause deserve our praise and thanks.

[GerateWohl 4,336]

12 hours ago, bruce marshall said:

Germany was an enemy that had to be defeated. All who helped in that cause deserve our praise and thanks.

No doubt. This in the end was a liberation for all including Germany itself. 

The discussion was about if this movie is an appropriat way to thank and praise the heroes. But maybe you are right. I have the movie in my rewatch list anyway. I will give it a try.

[bruce marshall 1,315]

Btw.

Some criticized the images of American flags at the cemetery.

SS deliberately drew the color out . I think that is him  saying our glory has faded since then with our ignoble wars in Vietnam, Iraq and other places

 

 

 

 

"...Nazis attacked only Europe..."

 

The Nazis attacked countries in Africa- El Alamein and " The Desert FOX", CASABLANCA?

 

American and British troops fought the Germans and , shamefully , conquered French soldiers turned collaborators.

 

They also sent U- boats to North America to attack U.S and Canada installations.

And, of course, their subs sunk many Merchant Marine  ships crossing the Atlantic

[karelm 2,903]

On 11/26/2020 at 4:40 AM, Josh500 said:

 

One example. 

 

Check out the moment starting at around 8:50. One of the best quieter moments in the film, and also one of the best scored ones. When the familiar theme starts playing (so graceful, soothing, and gorgeous!), I get goosebumps. I mean wow. Spielberg's top-notch direction also helps, needless to say. 

 

 

 

 

 

You are so, so right.  This might be Spielberg's masterpiece.  Like Coppola did in Apocalypse Now, Spielberg put his heart and soul into this film and this sequence encapsulates why the film and score are perfect. 

 

One of my favorite memories was on my flight back to Los Angeles after a wonderful experience performing with Marin Alsop and the amazing musicians and friends in the Baltimore Symphony Orchestra.  My instrument wouldn't fit in the overhead, so had to fly in a seat.  Evacuation rules required it was the first row window seat to not block any passengers in case there was an evacuation.  So my instrument and I were boarded first and in the front row.  Next were a group of 20 senior citizens that were all part of the Honor Flight Network (a non-profit organization whose mission is to transport Veterans to Washington DC to visit memorials dedicated to their service and sacrifice).  

 

This was one of the most enjoyable flights I had ever taken making the five-hour flight feel more like 30 minutes it was over so quick.  The man sitting next to me was known as the “kid” because he was the youngest one at 87.  He was a rear gunner on a B-17 bomber.  I told him I was a pilot which excited him as we began talking aviator to aviator about what he saw and experienced flying dozens of dangerous missions, the fright of the Luftwaffe, friends he lost, and the incredible randomness of great tragedies.  He almost started tearing up recalling a routine mission with several of his friends where all on board died because the plane simply flew into a mountain.   

 

I could feel the cold, noise, smell, fear, cramping, claustrophobia inside the rear and belly turret of these long missions over enemy terrain.  He said the introduction of the P-51 Mustang was a game changer because they would now have armed escorts on their dangerous missions who were as agile (probably more so) than the Luftwaffe.  They frequently didn't even know what happened to their friends.  After difficult missions, they simply returned and noticed airplanes missing.  No word of what happened to their friends...are they now POW?  Did the plane ditch in the sea?  Were they survivors hoping to be rescued?  They had no answers, just an empty bunk where their friend used to be.  How terrifying it must have been to fly these missions before the P-51 where it must have felt like they were a large sitting duck!  Now at least, they had a chance.

 

Half way through the flight, many of these men had to go the bathroom so my front row chair became a rotating door of great stories from these incredible veterans.   One consistent story I heard was how much they all revered one of the passengers on the flight above all else.  Finally, he made his way to the front row seat awaiting the bathroom.  When he sat next to me, we started talking and I saw his cap "101st Airborne Screaming Eagles" Infantry division.  My jaw dropped.  He was a paratrooper on D-Day who jumped from a glider behind enemy lines in the middle of the night during the Invasion of Normandy.  Against incredibly bad odds, he survived the battle telling me that night, he lost half his company.  Just imagine, in a 24-hour period losing one out of two people you trained and bonded with.  Since this was 2014, I recall he was 92.  That would make him 98 now.  I don't know his name or if he is still alive.  I will never forget him and I knew him for maybe a minute.  

 

They are true heroes. It was incredibly humbling to meet these heroes and I was reminded of them seeing interviews from Normandy on the 75th anniversary and think of them every time I see Saving Private Ryan.  I will never forget meeting them and hearing their experiences first hand.

[Tom 4,639]

This may be the most gripping posts I have ever read--well done and thank you. I find it interesting that all of this was raging during Williams's childhood. I think he even mentions that the music of the war update videos had a big impact of him.