Which completely unreleased Williams score would you most like to get a release?

[Jay 37,322]

We're only talking scores to feature-length films in this thread, not anything he's composed for shorts, television, or other mediums.

 

For the first poll question, I elected to omit The Sugarland Express (1974) because it would be the clear winner.  For all the other scores, I'd love to see youtube embeds that show off what the score is like in some of these films!

 

For the second poll question, I elected to omit The Poseidon Adventure (1972) and Pete N Tillie (1972) because they received specialty label editions very recently.  And for this question, by "redone" I mean whatever you want it to mean- a longer program, a shorter program, a different program, different mastering - tell us how you'd like to see one of these scores presented differently than the first specialty label release presented it!

 

Images isn't mentioned in either poll because while there was no OST album, the promo that came out around the time of the film seemed to be a planned OST program that just didn't end up getting released, so I put it on this poll intead.

[Thor 7,478]

Now THIS is a topic up my alley! Thank you, Jay. I voted STORY OF A WOMAN for the first (obviously) and CONRACK for the second. There's only some 10-15 minutes of unreleased music for that, as it's very sparsely spotted. The 6-minute "Main Title", which has already been released, is really the bulk of the score. But hey -- I wouldn't be opposed to the whole thing being released as a bonus on some other release. It's certainly short enough to sustain a C&C.

 

If memory serves, there's quite a bit of original score on VALLEY OF THE DOLLS (which is not on your list). The soundtrack album unfortunately displays none of this. I would be interested in a soundtrack release in the style of TOM SAWYER or GOODBYE MR. CHIPS to showcase some of this.

 

I'll get back with individual comments on each of these later.

[Jay 37,322]

2 minutes ago, Thor said:

If memory serves, there's quite a bit of original score on VALLEY OF THE DOLLS (which is not on your list). The soundtrack album unfortunately displays none of this. 

 

It had an OST album... so it's not on a poll about "completely unreleased scores".... This is like your Spielberg/Willliams thread post all over again!

[Thor 7,478]

3 minutes ago, Jay said:

 

It had an OST album... so it's not on a poll about "completely unreleased scores".... This is like your Spielberg/Willliams thread post all over again!

 

True. Except the OST only displayed Williams' arrangements of Previn's music, not his score. As such, the original score is technically unreleased. Just as with the score portions on the deluxe editions of TOM SAWYER or GOODBYE MR. CHIPS. But I can't really remember how much it was; it's been a long time since I saw the film (and it's an immense bore to get through!).

[Jay 37,322]

You're splitting hairs, being pedantic, and missing the intended point of discussion of this thread.

 

I'd love to learn more about the scores that have gone without a release of any kind in this thread, not talk about ones that have received an OST album supervised by Williams.

[Jurassic Shark 12,033]

Just now, Jay said:

You're splitting hairs, being pedantic

 

JWFan^TM

[Thor 7,478]

Wow, Jay. Just trying to add calmly to the discussion here. You're not exactly inspiring more input with comments like that.

[filmmusic 1,823]

9 minutes ago, Thor said:

I voted STORY OF A WOMAN for the first (obviously) and CONRACK for the second

Same here..

 

Story of a woman is gorgeous, and for the second question, I don't feel anything should be redone (is there anything missing from the other scores?) except for Conrack.

[Jay 37,322]

Well it's frustrating to try to create a thread to discuss the great unreleased works of the maestro, and the very first reply is picking apart things and missing the essence of what we are hoping to discuss

 

Tell us more about why you picked Story of a Woman.  What's the score like?  Got a youtube clip that shows off a nice highlight?

[filmmusic 1,823]

4 minutes ago, Jay said:

Got a youtube clip that shows off a nice highlight?

Undoubtedly this is the highlight of the score featuring the 2 main themes:

 

 

[Thor 7,478]

6 minutes ago, Jay said:

Well it's frustrating to try to create a thread to discuss the great unreleased works of the maestro, and the very first reply is picking apart things and missing the essence of what we are hoping to discuss

 

Is it a HUGE problem that I also want to add VALLEY OF THE DOLLS to the list? Does that denigrate the discussion somehow? I count it as a completely unreleased Williams score, just as I do for the OSTs of TOM SAWYER and GOODBYE MR. CHIPS. They have soundtrack albums, but none of his score. Personally, I thought that was a useful piece of input. It was not intended as 'nitpicking'.

 

Quote

 

Tell us more about why you picked Story of a Woman.  What's the score like?  Got a youtube clip that shows off a nice highlight?

 

It's Williams in romantic JANE EYRE mode (only less British, more Italian). Lush and melodic. It also has long stretches with just music and visuals, allowing Williams to develop his themes upfront. Most evident in the Cortina sequence, which I was about to post, but which I see filmmusic just did. Why Williams doesn't want this out, is beyond me, but I'm guessing it has something to do with the low quality of the movie.

[Jay 37,322]

It does seem like an odd choice to Williams to say no to once the elements were found.

BTW, I came across thread thread where Roger mentioned it.  Here is is:

 

http://www.intrada.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7754

 

In the thread, Roger indicates they found elements for both Rare Breed and Story of a Woman, but Williams said no.

 

He also indicates they could not find elements for The Plainsman or Screaming Woman.   The Screaming Woman, incidentally, is not on the poll because it was a TV movie, not theatrical, and  it only contains 43 seconds of Williams music.

[filmmusic 1,823]

3 minutes ago, Jay said:

they could not find elements for The Plainsman

Oh, I didn't remember that. This is a pity. But, you never know.

I hope it's not another Jayne Eyre case here...

[Thor 7,478]

Thankfully, in the case of THE RARE BREED, we at the very least have the almost 20-minute suite to keep us "warm" while we wait for Williams to turn around. Good to hear that they've found the elements.

[Jay 37,322]

Does anybody know what The Plainsman's score sounds like?

[filmmusic 1,823]

2 minutes ago, Jay said:

Does anybody know what The Plainsman's score sounds like?

 

[Thor 7,478]

Yes. There are elements of dated drumkit beats and pop chorus in the beginning of the film, but overall, it's a pretty good Williams western score. Traditional and open Americana. I mean, it's not on the level of his other westerns, but good enough to warrant a release.

 

 

[Edit: Dammit, filmmusic beat me to it again, albeit with a different clip. You're too quick for me!]

 

Incidentally, I've only ever seen this film dubbed in Spanish, sans subtitles. Hoping to see it with the original English one day.

[Jay 37,322]

That Story of a Woman clip was great!  I remember now that I've listened to this before.  It's good to know the elements are preserved, so we'll get to hear it all in normal quality and free of sound effects.... some day.

 

The Plainsman - oh boy!  Those 2 clips were both fun!  Doesn't sound particularly dated to me, I really enjoyed it!

[Thor 7,478]

The chorus singing "Laudate" (or some such thing) with the drumkit backdrop is very 60s, and I was surprised to hear it in a western setting when I first heard it, but I think it's cute! 

 

THE SECRET WAYS would probably be my second choice after STORY OF A WOMAN. His first proper, dramatic score. The film is pretty good too, a kind of THE THIRD MAN Light. I always expect "Duel of the Fates" to start up when the flute ostinato kicks in around the minute-mark in the opening credits:

 

 

[MrJosh 892]

I chose Storia for the first vote, mostly because of the mystery and hype around it, I haven't listened to any of the clips from movie rips. I almost picked Gidget Goes to Rome though, because that I've listened to bits of from the movie itself and it sounds like a really fun score. 

 

I had a hard time with the 2nd chunk, but chose The Paper Chase. I don't know if there's music missing from the FSM combo release, but I enjoyed the score quite a bit on that, so...that's my pick. 

[Jay 37,322]

I can't remember for certain now, but I think I might have read once that the one cue released is the only score in the film?  Not sure

[blondheim 1,157]

I chose Heartbeeps for the second choice only because I think the sound could be better. This is a score that would have benefited from having a Williams-curated album selection.

[Jay 37,322]

If they uncover paperwork that indicates he had planned out an OST program at some point, it should be included on a second disc of a new edition!

 

And yes, 2001 was so long ago now - I'm sure a new edition could sound better!

[MrJosh 892]

8 minutes ago, Jay said:

I can't remember for certain now, but I think I might have read once that the one cue released is the only score in the film?  Not sure

The Paper Chase has 12 tracks on the FSM release (and maybe that's the complete score, I don't know), it's Conrack that only has the one cue. And I think you're right that there's hardly any score in Conrack overall, though I think there is more than just that one Main Title...I haven't really listened through the TwilightTimes iso score yet. 

[Jay 37,322]

Woops that's right, I had them flipflopped in my head.  There was a later Varese CD that re-released the same Conrack track, and there is a Twilight Time blu ray with an isolated score track. 

But The Paper Chase only exists on 3,000 copies of the FSM Poseidon Adventure CD that is long OOP

[Thor 7,478]

24 minutes ago, MrJosh said:

I chose Storia for the first vote, mostly because of the mystery and hype around it, I haven't listened to any of the clips from movie rips. I almost picked Gidget Goes to Rome though, because that I've listened to bits of from the movie itself and it sounds like a really fun score. 

 

It is! Even though Williams wasn't involved with the songs, he plays around with the melodies, primarily "Gegetta", in his own score too. It also has some proper, dramatic underscoring, like the scene where Gidget dreams she's in ancient Rome. Some shades of Alex North's SPARTACUS in this, I've always thought.

 

 

6 minutes ago, MrJosh said:

The Paper Chase has 12 tracks on the FSM release (and maybe that's the complete score, I don't know), it's Conrack that only has the one cue. And I think you're right that there's hardly any score in Conrack overall, though I think there is more than just that one Main Title...I haven't really listened through the TwilightTimes iso score yet. 

 

Yes, as previously mentioned, there are some extra 10-15 minutes in the film beyond the "Main Title", if memory serves.

[Jay 37,322]

6 minutes ago, Thor said:

 

It is! Even though Williams wasn't involved with the songs, he plays around with the melodies, primarily "Gegetta", in his own score too. It also has some proper, dramatic underscoring, like the scene where Gidget dreams she's in ancient Rome. Some shades of Alex North's SPARTACUS in this, I've always thought.

Woah, that sounds neat!  Is that scene on youtube?

[Thor 7,478]

2 minutes ago, Jay said:

Woah, that sounds neat!  Is that scene on youtube?

 

To my surprise, the whole film was put on Youtube a couple of months ago. First time I've seen the whole film there, it's only been clips. Go to 30:35 here:

 

 

[Jay 37,322]

Quote

Yes, as previously mentioned, there are some extra 10-15 minutes in the film beyond the "Main Title", if memory serves.

 

 

Yea that sounds right, in terms of what's heard in the film (and on the Twilight Time isolated score track).  Of course, who knows if more music was recorded, that got dropped form the film!

[King Mark 3,626]

For the first I voted Rare Breed because the re-recording has great music and the second Conrak has only 1 cue released

 

Unless the find stereo masters for Family Plot

[Jay 37,322]

13 minutes ago, Thor said:

To my surprise, the whole film was put on Youtube a couple of months ago. First time I've seen the whole film there, it's only been clips. Go to 30:35 here:

 

That was lovely!  Part of it reminded me a bit of a part in Indiana Jones 3

 

Damn, I wouldn't have guessed this film had a score that sounded like this.  Very cool!

 

 

2 minutes ago, King Mark said:

Unless the find stereo masters for Family Plot

 

I wonder how Williams would have arranged this score for a OST album back in '76, and what parts he would have used for concert arrangements

[MrJosh 892]

As far as the other completely unreleased scores: I like the dramatic theme and some of the unsettling underscore in I Passed for White, I like some of Because They're Young and how Williams plays with that theme (which is not a theme of his own, am I right?). Daddy-O main title is cool and some of the jazzy stuff. 

 

I wonder how much of the source music is Williams in both Daddy-O and I Passed for White. There's some party/ club scenes in both I think. 

 

 

I'm currently completely unfamiliar with The Plainsman, The Rare Breed and Daddy's Gone a Hunting.

[Jay 37,322]

Got a youtube video showcasing the dramatic theme of I Passed For White or the Daddy-O main title?

[MrJosh 892]

 

Here's I Passed for White (very start is the main title theme, which is reprised at the end). 

 

 

I like some of the simple underscore, such as around the 7:30 mark. 

 

 

 

 

I have to look harder for Daddy-O.

 

[Thor 7,478]

8 minutes ago, MrJosh said:

As far as the other completely unreleased scores: I like the dramatic theme and some of the unsettling underscore in I Passed for White, I like some of Because They're Young and how Williams plays with that theme (which is not a theme of his own, am I right?).

 

You're right. The title song became an instrumental, Shadows-like hit with Duane Eddy and the Rebels after the movie, but Williams had nothing to do with it. He does some neat arrangements of it in the movie, though.

 

As for I PASSED FOR WHITE, that is a curious affair. Overly melodramatic at times (especially the abortion scene!), and sounding a bit like David Raksin. It's very hard to find Williams' voice in it. 

 

 

 

Quote

Daddy-O main title is cool and some of the jazzy stuff. 

 

I wonder how much of the source music is Williams in both Daddy-O and I Passed for White. There's some party/ club scenes in both I think. 

 

Williams didn't write any of the Dick Contino songs in DADDY-O. I'm not sure if he wrote any of the other source music.

 

[Edit: Damn, I'm too slow with the Youtube clips again because I have to type out comments too!]

[Jay 37,322]

5 minutes ago, MrJosh said:

Here's I Passed for White (very start is the main title theme, which is reprised at the end). 

 

Huh.  Not what I was expecting!  You can't even really hear Williams' voice in this music at all!

 

5 minutes ago, MrJosh said:

I like some of the simple underscore, such as around the 7:30 mark. 

 

Holy cow the acting in this movie is quite sub-par!

 

[MrJosh 892]

yeah I certainly wouldn't have guessed 'John Williams' if someone quizzed me with that main title

[filmmusic 1,823]

52 minutes ago, MrJosh said:

I have to look harder for Daddy-O.

here's the whole movie (from 14' and on albeit with commentators)

 

and here there are samples from the bootleg soundtrack (which is acrually a dvdrip):

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Daddy-Original-Soundtrack-John-Williams/dp/B00HRCCK0M

[Thor 7,478]

Watching the MST3K broadcast of DADDY-O is hopeless if you want to really experience the movie, even though that's all we had for a number of years. The film is out on DVD, so I recommend that instead. If you're a hardcore fan, that is. If you don't want to acquire the film, I guess it works as a 'sample' of what it is.

[Jay 37,322]

Story of a Woman is easily winning the poll with twice as many votes as the next contender

[blondheim 1,157]

I had honestly never heard Story of a Woman before today and it immediately shot to the top of the list for me. As a description, Jane Eyre-ish is dead on the money. His early 70's sound is under-rated. I need to spend more time there

 

Otherwise I would have picked The Secret Ways, that sounds very promising as well

[King Mark 3,626]

7 hours ago, MrJosh said:

yeah I certainly wouldn't have guessed 'John Williams' if someone quizzed me with that main title

yeah it sounds like Golden Age music 

[Thor 7,478]

Yes, as previously noted, it's reminiscent of David Raksin's LAURA. Perhaps Williams was a bit like Elfman early in his career, i.e. channeling his heroes. We know how much he likes Raksin and that score, in particular. So like Elfman infused PEE-WEE with Herrmann and Rota, Williams infused I PASSED FOR WHITE with Raksin. You can hear the same in his songs for the WAGON TRAIN episode "The Jenny Tannen Story" too; sounds like something composed for Broadway musicals in the 40s, nothing like Williams at all (and "Tomorrow", in particular, sounds like yet another Raksin melody). In either case, would be interesting to read some background info on the score in the liner notes, should this ever be released.

[TownerFan 4,983]

It's perfectly understandable from JW's point of view to think that these early scores are not commendable for an official album release. Artists tend to be very self-critical about what they perceive as trial-and-error works done at the beginning of their career. Plus, some of those stuff is really old and might not sound good enough to justify an album release.

 

Of course it's important to get as much stuff possible for historical and archival purposes and I too would welcome any kind of release of any JW work. Btw, it's an obsession as justifiable as wanting expanded releases of virtually everything

[Thor 7,478]

25 minutes ago, TownerFan said:

Of course it's important to get as much stuff possible for historical and archival purposes and I too would welcome any kind of release of any JW work.

 

Sure. What Williams himself may feel about the scores, does in no way influence my desire to have it and enjoy it. He's entitled to his opinion, I'm entitled to mine. Hopefully we'll see a few more completely unreleased JW scores in his and my lifetime.

[Jay 37,322]

I am sure the powers that be are trying the it hardest to get everything out 

[Jay 37,322]

How well does the Rare Breed suite that's been released cover all the different themes and ideas the full score has?

[Thor 7,478]

When I finished watching THE RARE BREED for the first time, I remember thinking "wow, the Silva suite is actually quite representative". It even had that cute little theme for the Vindicator - the rare breed in question. But there was no research behind it or anything, just an immediate gut feeling. It's been many years since I saw the film now. I'll let others that have the film fresher in mind respond with more detailed feedback.

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

On 12/3/2020 at 11:57 AM, TownerFan said:

It's perfectly understandable from JW's point of view to think that these early scores are not commendable for an official album release. Artists tend to be very self-critical about what they perceive as trial-and-error works done at the beginning of their career. Plus, some of those stuff is really old and might not sound good enough to justify an album release.

 

 Thank You. 

[Jay 37,322]

Well after 39 votes, The Rare Breed and Story of a Woman easily won, which I guess is not very surprising.

 

And people seem most interested in new editions of Heartbeeps or Conrack out of the titles that didn't get an OST album but the specialty labels already tackled once