Williams Opus Number index prototype

[Fabulin 3,510]

I like excel charts, and I was curious what opus number would The Rise of Skywalker have in a formal Williams catalogue, so I've decided to make one listing Williams' works in all genres, based on readily available information, with a precision of chronology set to a year. It's a prototype that gives an insight how a proper scholarly future catalogue might look like. Enjoy  and feel free to edit whatever could be improved, if you like.

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1t3wT8eQumVviGLYHhZPXsMASnh5_COfWEICbbw4hS3I/edit?usp=sharing

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Disco Stu 15,495]

My first question, and one that I don't really have a sure opinion on, is: Should individual television episodes that he wrote original underscore for be given separate catalog numbers?

[Fabulin 3,510]

16 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

My first question, and one that I don't really have a sure opinion on, is: Should individual television episodes that he wrote original underscore for be given separate catalog numbers?

I thought about it comparably to how works by composers such as Haendel, Beethoven or Chopin are organized. Not seldomly works such as collections of "pieces for orchestra", songs, polonaises, and so on are lumped together, so I thought such an approach is not inappropriate for a collection of episodes or scenes that share the same name of a TV series.

[GerateWohl 4,326]

One question that came to my mind: If you have a soundtrack, afterwards a suite gets created, then single reworks of themes, how does that count?

Example: The Force Awakens has a soundtrack, asuite, then cam Adagio from The Force Awakens. Or the recent rework of Han Solo and the Princess, does it get a separate number?

Or Star Gazers from E.T. Came many years later.

[Fabulin 3,510]

14 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

One question that came to my mind: If you have a soundtrack, afterwards a suite gets created, then single reworks of themes, how does that count?

Example: The Force Awakens has a soundtrack, asuite, then cam Adagio from The Force Awakens. Or the recent rework of Han Solo and the Princess, does it get a separate number?

Or Star Gazers from E.T. Came many years later.

Because of the diversity of such items across Williams' career, a good starting question would be whether a coherent solution for all arrangements after film scores is possible, and whether it is even needed.

 

I would be inclined to include suites such as that from The Force Awakens within one number with the score proper if Williams created them immediately after scoring the film.

 

Concert pieces and arrangements created years later (Star Gazers, the new Han Solo and the Princess) should in my view get an independent number, even if they are very close to the source material.

 

If you agree, feel free to add such pieces accordingly to the index  

[Bespin 8,475]

No need to use catalog number, each work have so far a unique name!

 

Did you get that info from my website?

 

http://www.goplanete.com/johnwilliams/composer/index.htm

 

Well, you should because you don't have good the good years.

 

For some tv series John Williams didn't wrote the theme, but participated at some episodes only, and not always from the first season of those series...

 

This is the case for Bachelor Father, the tv series began in 1957, but John Williams wrote only music for 44 episodes between 1959 and 1960.

 

Finally, NO ONE has the info who would allow him or her to correctly sort all JW by real composition date or by registered copyright ones.

 

Miguel and Thor helped me ensure my composition list is the most up to date one.

[Thor 7,463]

It's always nice to organize. A few comments on your list:

 

You have some erroneous dates, and you're missing some entries as far as TV is concerned. I think it would make more sense to give the date for when Williams did the scores, not when the series premiered. For example, M SQUAD is 1958, BACHELOR FATHER is 1959 etc. in terms of Williams' first scores. You can use this resource thread of mine on FSM as reference for the TV stuff (Williams' involvement is specified below each entry): https://www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=86871&forumID=1&archive=0

 

You're missing "Hello", his first composition that was ever recorded and released.

 

Not sure if GUNSLINGER was ever confirmed.

 

BIG G is unconfirmed, as far as I remember. Might be the name of an episode of some series, such as "Flashing Spikes" (which was also wrongly listed as an independent film, while it is in actuality an episode of ALCOA).

 

Why is "Victor's Tale" listed as its own thing, outside of THE TERMINAL?

 

You have listed "The Mission" as its own thing, but it's part of his NBC music which also includes other compositions like "Fugue for Changing Times", "Scherzo for Today", "Meet the Press"....

 

Probably a few more corrections, but that was first glance.

 

 

 

[Bespin 8,475]

Like Thor said, you forgot the "miscellaneous" compositions like these ones:

 

 

Of course, if you see recent compositions that I've missed, because in the last years I slowed down a bit to update my website... Just write me in PM, thanks!

[Fabulin 3,510]

10 minutes ago, Bespin said:

No need to use catalog number, each work have so far a unique name.

 

Did you get that info from my website?

 

http://www.goplanete.com/johnwilliams/composer/index.htm

So do all Tchaikovsky's works. The purpose is to have a view of the entire career, not just singular genres. No higher philosophy behind counting the number of works.

 

I didn't use your website, and I see it conflicts with some dates such as those in Thor's FSM list, a JWFan equivalent of said list, and Wikipedia articles. I assume you have more reliable information, so I will correct accordingly.

 

4 minutes ago, Thor said:

It's always nice to organize. A few comments on your list:

 

You have listed "The Mission" as its own thing, but it's part of his NBC music which also includes other compositions like "Fugue for Changing Times", "Scherzo for Today", "Meet the Press"....

Wiki says: ""The Mission" is an orchestral suite composed by John Williams in 1985 as a television news music package for NBC News. It consists of four movements".

Quote

You have some erroneous dates, and you're missing some entries as far as TV is concerned. I think it would make more sense to give the date for when Williams did the scores, not when the series premiered. For example, M SQUAD is 1958, BACHELOR FATHER is 1959 etc. in terms of Williams' first scores. You can use this resource thread of mine on FSM as reference for the TV stuff (Williams' involvement is specified below each entry): https://www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=86871&forumID=1&archive=0

That's exactly what I did for those TV shows, even based on your own threads on JWFan and FSM. Assuming your sources are more correct, there might be some mistakes because of other sources I used. Feel free to correct if you remember the right year.

Quote

Why is "Victor's Tale" listed as its own thing, outside of THE TERMINAL?

Because it's an arrangement for clarinet and a concert band

Quote

Not sure if GUNSLINGER was ever confirmed.

 

BIG G is unconfirmed, as far as I remember. Might be the name of an episode of some series, such as "Flashing Spikes" (which was also wrongly listed as an independent film, while it is in actuality an episode of ALCOA).

I will add a "disputed" tag to those.

 

Just now, Bespin said:

LIke Thor said, you forgot all the early "isolated" compositions like these ones:

 

thanks, will update

[Thor 7,463]

While "Hello" was recorded in 1956, the album which features it was released in 1957.

[Bespin 8,475]

2 hours ago, GerateWohl said:

One question that came to my mind: If you have a soundtrack, afterwards a suite gets created, then single reworks of themes, how does that count?

Example: The Force Awakens has a soundtrack, asuite, then cam Adagio from The Force Awakens. Or the recent rework of Han Solo and the Princess, does it get a separate number?

Or Star Gazers from E.T. Came many years later.

 

The new "Han Solo and The Princess" is a an arrangement. I consider Stargazer and Adagio from The Force Awakens as new compositions, because of their "new name given" to differenciate them from the movie works.

 

http://www.goplanete.com/johnwilliams/arranger/index.htm

 

FIXED Woops, I should add the Mutter albums...

[Fabulin 3,510]

Just now, Thor said:

While "Hello" was recorded in 1956, the album which features it was released in 1957.

To be fair, releases do not really matter for opus number catalogues.

1 minute ago, Bespin said:

 

The new "Han Solo and The Princess" and "Stargazers", for example, are arrangements.

 

http://www.goplanete.com/johnwilliams/arranger/index.htm

I will update the list with arrangements, orchestrations etc. as well. Phew, a lot to do in the evening

[Jay 37,281]

3 hours ago, Thor said:

You have listed "The Mission" as its own thing, but it's part of his NBC music which also includes other compositions like "Fugue for Changing Times", "Scherzo for Today", "Meet the Press"....

 

3 hours ago, Fabulin said:

Wiki says: ""The Mission" is an orchestral suite composed by John Williams in 1985 as a television news music package for NBC News. It consists of four movements".

 

The Mission is both the name of the overall suite of 4 movements, and the name of the first movement.

 

The Mission (Theme for NBC News)

1. The Mission

2. Fugue for Changing Times

3. Scherzo for Today

4. The Pulse of Events

 

"Meet The Press" is the name of the television show that used Movement IV.  Movement III was used for "The Today Show", Movement II was used for "Before Hours", and Movement I was used for "The NBC Nightly News" and "NBC News at Sunrise"

[Thor 7,463]

 

Quote

Because it's an arrangement for clarinet and a concert band

 

I see. But shouldn't you then also have "Escapades", the MEMOIRS suite etc. as their own thing? I know people disagree on this, but I would personally lump it all under the original score. They are technically re-arrangements, not new compositions.

 

Quote

That's exactly what I did for those TV shows, even based on your own threads on JWFan and FSM. Assuming your sources are more correct, there might be some mistakes because of other sources I used. Feel free to correct if you remember the right year.

 

Yes, the dates for Williams' first involvements in these shows are given in that FSM thread (or the season, to be precise -- click on the specific series threads under each entry for specific dates). Of course, it's up to you whether you want to list the show's first airing, or Williams' first involvement as the year in the list - but it would need to be consistent. By the way, I need to update that FSM resource thread with some new info that has surfaced since the last time.

 

7 minutes ago, Fabulin said:

To be fair, releases do not really matter for opus number catalogues.

 

That's true.

[Score 770]

2 hours ago, Fabulin said:

Because of the diversity of such items across Williams' career, a good starting question would be whether a coherent solution for all arrangements after film scores is possible, and whether it is even needed.

 

I would be inclined to include suites such as that from The Force Awakens within one number with the score proper if Williams created them immediately after scoring the film.

 

Concert pieces and arrangements created years later (Star Gazers, the new Han Solo and the Princess) should in my view get an independent number, even if they are very close to the source material.

 

If you agree, feel free to add such pieces accordingly to the index  

 

I think the most coherent way would be to give suites the same number as the corresponding film score, plus a letter. For example, if the film score to TFA has catalogue number 206, then the Suite would be 206a and the Adagio would be 206b (independently of the year of composition). Composers who gave opus number to their works were not always coherent about this issue. For example, Prokofiev gave op. 64 to the ballet "Romeo and Juliet", then he gave opus numbers 64bis, 64ter and 101 to the three orchestral suites extracted (and re-arranged) from it!

 

Also, consider that basically all the concert suites were at least a bit re-orchestrated, so I would not count any of them as part of the respective film scores. For example, the Main Title of Star Wars, as given in the concert suite, has a different orchestration from the cue recorded for the film score.

[Thor 7,463]

Don't forget the piano sonata and wind quintet either -- the earliest JW compositions that we're aware of.

[Fabulin 3,510]

32 minutes ago, Bespin said:

No need to use catalog number, each work have so far a unique name!

 

Did you get that info from my website?

 

http://www.goplanete.com/johnwilliams/composer/index.htm

 

Well, you should because you don't have good the good years.

 

Miguel and Thor helped me ensure my composition list is the most up to date one.

That's important. Thanks.

Quote

For some tv series John Williams didn't wrote the theme, but participated at some episodes only, and not always from the first season of those series...

 

This is the case for Bachelor Father, the tv series began in 1957, but John Williams wrote only music for 44 episodes between 1959 and 1960.

That's not what the list claims though. It simply gives a title to Williams' projects.

 

Quote

Finally, NO ONE has the info who would allow him or her to correctly sort all JW by real composition date or by registered copyright ones.

Then no-one should worry. This will in the end be based on the best we've got.

 

2 minutes ago, Thor said:

 

 

I see. But shouldn't you then also have "Escapades", the MEMOIRS suite etc. as their own thing? I know people disagree on this, but I would personally lump it all under the original score. They are technically re-arrangements, not new compositions.

 

 

Yes, the dates for Williams' first involvements in these shows are given in that FSM thread (or the season, to be precise -- click on the specific series threads under each entry for specific dates). Of course, it's up to you whether you want to list the show's first airing, or Williams' first involvement as the year in the list. By the way, I need to update that FSM resource thread with some new info that has surfaced since the last time.

I should fix everything according to Bespin's data in the evening, so if later you will have something that is not there, please do add it to the excel chart, or notify me per PM.

4 minutes ago, Score said:

 

I think the most coherent way would be to give suites the same number as the corresponding film score, plus a letter. For example, if the film score to TFA has catalogue number 206, then the Suite would be 206a and the Adagio would be 206b (independently of the year of composition). Composers who gave opus number to their works were not always coherent about this issue. For example, Prokofiev gave op. 64 to the ballet "Romeo and Juliet", then he gave opus numbers 64bis, 64ter and 101 to the three orchestral suites extracted (and re-arranged) from it!

Yes, that's why I do not worry about coherence too much. No classical catalogue is perfect. As for arrangements, I plan to follow the Bach Werke Verzeichnis method in this, for example: 206, 206.1, 206.2

3 minutes ago, Thor said:

Don't forget the piano sonata and wind quintet either -- the earliest JW compositions that we're aware of.

please tell me the years of those.

[Thor 7,463]

36 minutes ago, Fabulin said:

That's not what the list claims though. It simply gives a title to Williams' projects.

 

I think consistency is the key, whichever way you choose. For example, you list GENERAL ELECTRIC THEATRE as 1960, which is when Williams first got involved. But the series began in 1953.

 

Vice versa, you list BACHELOR FATHER as 1957, which is when the series began. But Williams' first score in the series was in early 1959.

 

Quote

please tell me the years of those.

 

The dates are not 100% verified for those, but a cross reference of various sources put the piano sonata at 1951 and the wind quintet at 1953. Both student pieces.

 

36 minutes ago, Fabulin said:

I should fix everything according to Bespin's data in the evening, so if later you will have something that is not there, please do add it to the excel chart, or notify me per PM.

 

Sure, I'll try to look it over when I get the time.

[GerateWohl 4,326]

2 hours ago, Bespin said:

 

The new "Han Solo and The Princess" is a an arrangement. I consider Stargazer and Adagio from The Force Awakens as new compositions, because of their "new name given" to differenciate them from the movie works.

Apart from the naming I think musically Stargazers is more equal to E.T. and Me than the two versions of Han Solo and the Princess have in common. That is by the way one point that I don't like about the new version of HSatP, it does not really sound like The Empire Strikes Back. It sounds more like something from the Star Wars prequels. 

 

[Jay 37,281]

"Stargazers" is essentially a slightly different "E.T. and Me", I dunno why he gave it a new name

 

"Han Solo and the Princess" (2018) is COMPLETELY different from "Han Solo and the Princess" (1980),  I dunno why he reused the same name

[Marian Schedenig 8,172]

This actually sounds much more substantial and worthwhile than an initial reaction might suggest. I think it's imperative to base this on *compositions* and not recordings/albums/releases. I.e. I would definitely count concert suites as their own works, unless they were actually written as part of the film score proper (e.g. the end credits). Depending on how substantial the difference to the score piece(s) is, I would then give them a sub index (like "a" or ".1") or their own separate number. It's "intent" that should count, not necessarily how far apart two pieces were created. Compare Holst's The Planets, which as a 7 movement suite has a single opus number, to Smetana's Ma Vlast, which is constructed as a cycle of separate pieces that were premiered (and are often performed) individually and therefore have their own individual opus numbers, even though they are thematically and compositionally related (at one point, one piece even starts in exactly the same way the previous one ended - if Williams were to put them on the album, he'd undoubtedly put another piece in between the two to spoil the effect). For example, I would give the Star Wars suite its own opus number, because it's a substantial reworking/development of different parts of the original score conceived as a coherent suite for concert performances. Following that logic, original TV scores would by necessity have one opus number per episode, because each of them was presumably conceived and commissioned independently from the others.

3 hours ago, Thor said:

You're missing "Hello", his first composition that was ever recorded and released.

 

Hang on… Williams started his career with a Hello World piece? How nerdy is that?

[Thor 7,463]

5 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

Hang on… Williams started his career with a Hello World piece? How nerdy is that?

 

Indeed. Always found that cute.

[The Lost Folio 183]

This thread shows very well why no film music composer employs (or has been assigned) opus numbers, and why in general most concert composers abandoned them over 100 years ago. They are very impractical and unsuited to the realities of contemporary music. A complete and detailed catalogue is a great thing to have, but a numbering scheme is something else entirely.

 

For John Williams, I would only assign numbers to the concert works. And even there, there would be lots of unconventional numbering issues. 

[Bespin 8,475]

John Williams began his composer career with a coded message:

 

Hello, Aunt Orsavella. Caribe!

 

1 hour ago, Jay said:

Stargazers is essentially a slightly different "E.T. and Me", I dunno why he gave it a new name

 

"Han Solo and the Princess" (2018) is COMPLETELY different from "Han Solo and the Princess (1980),  I dunno why he reused the same name

 

We'll call that inspiration or... lack of inspiration!

[Jurassic Shark 12,024]

Reported.

[Bespin 8,475]

My two cents, it's that JW give a new name when he wants to make us realize that it's a "new" serious composition for the orchestra, not "so" related to a movie... It's a message like: HEY ORCHESTRAS, PLAY IT, IT'S NEW!

 

"Stargazers, for harp and orchestra", admit it have more class than "E.T. and Me".

 

Like three movements of "Catch Me if YOu CAn" became a Concerto named "Escapades, concerto for alto saxophone & orchestra", which every wind player around the world already recorded.

 

And I can be wrong, but when it have a new name, you can register the copyrights a second time...

 

Mar-Ke-Ting.

 

Do you want to report that?

[Bayesian 1,359]

Unless I'm mistaken, 2010 appears to be the only year since the 1950s without a JW composition. That's remarkable!

[Marian Schedenig 8,172]

2 hours ago, The Lost Folio said:

This thread shows very well why no film music composer employs (or has been assigned) opus numbers, and why in general most concert composers abandoned them over 100 years ago.

 

Were they typically assigned by the composers themselves? Several of the most famous catalogues at least were created later on by other people. And even if the works were numbered "live", I believe it was usually a running counter of *published* works.

 

It doesn't make much sense for film composers while they're working. But it does make sense for compiling a complete catalogue of their output. If there ever should be a kritische Gesamtausgabe of Williams' works, I'd expect it to have a consistent and complete numbering scheme.

[Fabulin 3,510]

3 hours ago, The Lost Folio said:

For John Williams, I would only assign numbers to the concert works.

That's about the last thing that ever ought to be done. It places an artificial barrier between film scores and concert works, and there is absolutely no need to supply snobs with such ammunition. In fact, the chief idea of a complete work catalogue is to help break down the artificial borders.

[Marian Schedenig 8,172]

2 hours ago, Bespin said:

And I can be wrong, but when it have a new name, you can register the copyrights a second time...

 

Unless things have changed (which is certainly possible), sufficiently "substantial" changes to the content are enough to qualify for a new copyright registration. The 2nd edition of LOTR (which incorporated many of Tolkien's collected amendments and corrections) was primarily created to counter a copyright hiccup that had caused the novel to fall into the public domain in the US - most American copies at that time were unlicenced and severely flawed printings by an unauthorised publishing company. Houghton Mifflin and Tolkien launched a major campaign urging readers to not buy those cheap prints and invest in the official product instead. Aside from hurting Tolkien financially (he was short of money for much of his life), it also hurt the text - some of the mistakes of the unlicenced print found their way back into the official editions and stuck there for years, even decades.

[karelm 2,903]

Didn't he compose a universally panned musical that you're missing?  Otherwise aside from TV episodes looks good.  One can get very nit picky about such things and say what about radio adaptions (Star Wars radio) and then what about video game adaptions too?  It's certainly an impressive list! 

[mrbellamy 6,272]

27 minutes ago, karelm said:

Didn't he compose a universally panned musical that you're missing?  

 

Thomas and the King is there between Jaws and Family Plot. WON 92. But Fab didn't otherwise label it for some reason.

[Score 770]

12 hours ago, Bespin said:

Like three movements of "Catch Me if YOu CAn" became a Concerto named "Escapades, concerto for alto saxophone & orchestra", which every wind player around the world already recorded.

 

 

In the case of Escapades, the reworking is substantial. The first movement is nearly identical to the Main Titles, ok, but the second and third movements are significantly different from their counterparts in the film score. 

 

 

[GerateWohl 4,326]

30 minutes ago, Score said:

In the case of Escapades, the reworking is substantial. The first movement is nearly identical to the Main Titles, ok, but the second and third movements are significantly different from their counterparts in the film score. 

Right. And I must admit, same for both, Stargazers and Escapades, I like the original album versions better. 

 

Played live it might be different.

 

Still my favourite new arrangement of a classical Williams theme is probably Marion's Theme.

[Fabulin 3,510]

16 hours ago, Bayesian said:

Unless I'm mistaken, 2010 appears to be the only year since the 1950s without a JW composition. That's remarkable!

What's interesting to me is that after the gig-like 1960s every decade brough a very comparable number of compositions (ca. 35-40). 50 years of consistency!

 

Even this very year pulled its share, with 3 compositions announced.

[karelm 2,903]

17 hours ago, Bayesian said:

Unless I'm mistaken, 2010 appears to be the only year since the 1950s without a JW composition. That's remarkable!

 

I wouldn't think of it quite that way.  Some works span multiple years.  For example Fabulin lists the Violin Concerto as 1976 but we know he was working on it from 1974 and spent most of 1975 on it probably completing in 1976 premiering it in 1981 with multiple revisions after.  I have no doubt there are years where no work was completed but were full of compositional activity...the resulting works might not have been completed that year.  He is generally speedy but I'm sure there are projects that span years.