TPM original end credits

[mxsch 115]

I wonder why JW re-recorded whole end credits piece from ANH but end up using only beginning with coda for ending.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Matt S. 492]

My guess is they didn’t know how long the end credits needed to be, so they recorded the whole thing to make sure they had plenty of material to cut and paste later on.

[Datameister 2,037]

It's a mystery that's never been solved by fans, as far as I know. (I say "by fans" because obviously it wouldn't be a mystery to JW, Ken Wannberg, etc.)

 

It's kind of mystifying. Time is money on the scoring stage, so you don't record something "just because." You get the takes you need and you move on. But at the same time, I can't imagine why they would ever consider actually using Leia's theme in the TPM credits.

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

Could it be a test recording to warm up the orchestra and tune the recording equipment?

[crumbs 14,300]

1 hour ago, Luke Skywalker said:

Could it be a test recording to warm up the orchestra and tune the recording equipment?

 

I think that's the going theory.

 

I don't have the recording dates handy but if it's from the first day of sessions, this makes the most sense.

[Datameister 2,037]

1 hour ago, Luke Skywalker said:

Could it be a test recording to warm up the orchestra and tune the recording equipment?

 

That hypothesis comes up a lot, but I don't buy it. To my knowledge, that's just not needed when everyone involved is world-class. Efficiency is the name of the game on the scoring stage because you're paying top dollar for every minute.

 

@crumbs it was apparently recorded on the afternoon of the second day. 11 to 15 cues had already been recorded by that point, including some very busy action cues, which I think is really the final nail in the coffin for the warm-up/recording test theory.

[oierem 151]

4 hours ago, Matt S. said:

My guess is they didn’t know how long the end credits needed to be, so they recorded the whole thing to make sure they had plenty of material to cut and paste later on.

 

This is the logical assumption. After all, the end credits are basically two concer versions pasted one after the other. They probably just recorded the other piece just to have more material (recorded with the same quality).

Williams likes to reprise old cues without (necessarily) caring much about thematic consistency. 

As we know now, the orginal end credits for Harry Potter 3 included part of the concert version of the "Hedwig's/Nimbus 2000 theme", featuring a theme that is barely present in the film itself. 

The album version of the end credits for SW III feature the Throne Room concert version, and the film version ends with the original reprise of the Main Theme/Rebels Theme/Throne Room. Again, just for the sake of it.

I can see why Williams thought that, after so many years, they should reprise the original end credits.

[crumbs 14,300]

Maybe the credits suite was originally intended to be a combination of the ANH suite + Duel of the Fates? Then they decided to abandon the ANH redux and use his concert suite for Anakin's Theme instead. Was that concert suite recorded after the original credits suite?

 

In the ensuing films, JW made some (seemingly) odd decisions about recycling music in his credits suites anyway. Don't forget reusing Throne Room and Finale for ROTS, despite having nothing to do with the film (but purely as a victory lap for the saga). Maybe George suggested reprising the original credits suite to commemorate the return of Star Wars?

 

As for timings, it's roughly 2.5 minutes (ANH) vs 3 minutes (AT), which could easily be explained by a changing credits runtime (JW scored the film months before that was locked).

 

12 minutes ago, oierem said:

As we know now, the orginal end credits for Harry Potter 3 included part of the concert version of the "Hedwig's/Nimbus 2000 theme", featuring a theme that is barely present in the film itself. 

 

That's a very good comparison, basically the same situation as the TPM suite.

 

Considering how much shorter that original suite was for POA vs Mischief Managed, it does indicate that JW just records lots of options for filmmakers because the credits likely aren't locked/rendered during the scoring sessions.

[Holko 9,499]

I'm always confused by those Credits replacements and overtrackings and even changes between theatrical and home versions like TFA where they cut in a bit to extend a part - just speed the new longer credits up a bit and it'll fit! Are there that serious regulations about how long of a time somebody's name has to spend on screen?

[bigjimwilson 253]

I believe I'm right in thinking the Phantom Menace recording of the Main Title became Lucasfilm's go to version for many years. Is it possible they were asked to get a complete End Title for use in any other projects?.... video games and wotnot? whilst the LSO were sat there and the mic's were on, it could have made budgetary sense. Few birds, one stone etc. 

[Henry Sítrónu 494]

6th February, seems to be the second day.

 

[crumbs 14,300]

23 minutes ago, lemoncurd said:

6th February, seems to be the second day.

 

 

I'm confused, what are the differences between these pieces?

• M Throne Room (End Credits)
• 7M3 End Credits
• 7M3 End Credits (Insert)
• 7M3 Throne Room

I was under the impression 7M3 End Credits was the complete ANH credits suite and 7M3 End Credits (Insert) was Duel of the Fates, but what are the two separate listings for Throne Room...? Were these additional options for the end credits that went unused and didn't leak in any video games?

[Archive Collection 214]

Where was this version of the EC suite found? Some video game perhaps?

[Jay 37,285]

• 1M2     Star Wars Main Title = The main title recording, recorded using the published suite (bars 1-68) on February 5th
• 7M3    Throne Room = the recording this thread was created to discuss, ANH's entire end credits recorded using the published suite (bars 107-end) on February 6th
• Throne Room (End Credits) = either some kind of shorter rendition of the end credits also recorded on February 6th from the published suite that never leaked, or a full blown typo on the Dakota recording log.
• 7M3    End Credit  = What we know as "Duel of the Fates", recorded on February 10th
• 7M3    End Credits Insert = The actual opening of the end credits used in the film, the OST, and the UE to bridge from Augie to DOTF, recorded using the published suite (bars 107-124, 127-131) + 4 new bars, on February 16th

[crumbs 14,300]

Geez, what a mess!

 

Even more confusing that they used the term Throne Room so liberally when none of the music from the Throne Room portion of the suite was recorded!

 

8 minutes ago, Jay said:

7M3 End Credits Insert = The actual opening of the end credits used in the film, the OST, and the UE to bridge from Augie to DOTF, recorded using the published suite (bars 107-124, 127-131) + 4 new bars

 

So this section (Main on End) was recorded multiple times, to cover all options? Definitely sounds like a different take in the "alternate" end credits suite (7M3 Throne Room), plus the obvious differences at the end (no transition to Leia's Theme).

[Jay 37,285]

Each of my 5 bullet points was a completely separate recording

[Smeltington 1,436]

Maybe he recorded it as a possibility for the OST, rather than the film. I can think of two possible reasons.

1. He could join the main title to the end title to create a concert track like he did for the original Star Wars 77 OST. Why would he do that? Well, maybe for whatever reason he rerecorded Raiders March for the KotCS OST.

2. He could have used the end credits to close out the OST, since he already put DotF and Anakin's Theme early on, although that kind of thing doesn't usually seem to be a problem for him  

 

 

14 hours ago, Matt S. said:

My guess is they didn’t know how long the end credits needed to be, so they recorded the whole thing to make sure they had plenty of material to cut and paste later on.

 

Seems like the best theory we have.

[SilverTrumpet 638]

The Duel of the Fates in the end credits wasn't just the concert piece pasted in? 

[Jay 37,285]

There is no concert piece "version" of this.  What we call "Duel of the Fates" was titled "End Credit" by Williams when he wrote it

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's used in the end credits of the film, and Lucas of course also pasted bits of it during the end of the film also.

 

For the OST album, JW decided to put it on the OST in its own track where he titled it "Duel of the Fates", and also put it on the album again in the final track.  In other words the same identical recording appears on the album twice - It's one of 4 pieces of music that does so on this album.

[oierem 151]

In other words: both Duel of the Fates and Throne Room were indeed recorded as 7m3/end credits. Anakin's Theme was recorded as a concert piece (likely for the album). It is a rather subdued piece, not like most of the end credit pieces, which are more energetic.

[Jay 37,285]

24 minutes ago, oierem said:

In other words: both Duel of the Fates and Throne Room were indeed recorded as 7m3/end credits

 

Feb 5: They record bars 1-68 of the published suite (IE, ANH's main title), and this shows up as "1M2 Main Title" on the recording log

 

Feb 6: They record bars 107-end of the published suite (IE, ANH's end credits), and this shows up as "7M3 (Throne Room)" on the recording log

 

Also Feb 6 (Potentially), they record some other short version of the ANH end credits, this shows up as "Throne Room (End Credits)" on recording log, but this could just be some paperwork error and doesn't actually exist (I find it dubious that it has the same 1:24 length as the cue right under it - I think its a mistake that no one Xed out)

 

Feb 10: They record a brand new Williams composition he titled "7M3 End Credit", and this shows up on the recording log as "7M3 End Credits"

 

Feb 16: They record hybrid composition comprised of bars 107-124, then 127-131 of the published suite followed by 4 brand new bars that Williams titled "End Credit Part 1 Short Ending".  This shows up as "7M3 End Credits Insert" on the recording log

 

 

 

 

 

Lucas and his team play with the music in the film.  He tracks "7M3 End Credit" into several scenes instead of the music JW wrote.  The end credits are "7M2 The Big Parade" followed by "7M3 End Credits Insert" followed by "7M3 End Credit" followed by "Anakin's Theme", though there are several bits snipped out of things to fit the run time of the film.  "7M3 (Throne Room)" is completely unused.

 

 

 

JW assembles his OST album.  He decides to put "7M3 End Credit" in its own track (track #2) as "Duel of the Fates".  He makes "Anakin's Theme" track #3.  The final track is "7M2 The Big Parade" followed by "7M3 End Credits Insert" followed by "7M3 End Credit" followed by "Anakin's Theme" like the film, except "The Big Parade" is a different version than the version in the film, and "End Credit" and "Anakin's Theme" are not edited down like in the film.  They are the same mastered files that already appeared in tracks 2 and 3.  (he actually further edits Duel of the Fates by replacing some portions with material from within the same track but that's another story)

 

 

Lucasfilm starts pumping out video games.  Eventually we find "7M3 (Throne Room)" in one of them but have no idea what it is or why it was recorded.

 

 

The sheet music leaks, with the recording log, so now we know the names of all the things and how to place every bit of music we've ever heard in the film, the OST, the UE, or a video game, but still don't know why this piece was recorded.

[Henry Sítrónu 494]

What's the story behind „George's string cluster“?

 

 

[Jay 37,285]

Great question

[Datameister 2,037]

What @Jay said, @lemoncurd. Nobody knows. 

[Faleel 5,335]

Perhaps the man who's name is in the title might have at some point?

[Jay 37,285]

I'd assume he requested it to be used to plop into scenes where necessary, but then he never ended up doing so anywhere

[Henry Sítrónu 494]

Interesting, thanks!

I have to say TPM is a very special score for me. I was 12 when the movie came out and it was my third John Williams CD after JP and TLW (I started listening to soundtracks after Titanic). I really freaked out over the UE. Took me a while to realize the negative aspects of it.  

[Smeltington 1,436]

A TPM appreciator! Hooray!

[Faleel 5,335]

1 hour ago, Jay said:

I'd assume he requested it to be used to plop into scenes where necessary, but then he never ended up doing so anywhere

Didn't it end up getting used in one of the Tatooine/Maul/Probe cues?

[Datameister 2,037]

 

39 minutes ago, lemoncurd said:

Interesting, thanks!

I have to say TPM is a very special score for me. I was 12 when the movie came out and it was my third John Williams CD after JP and TLW (I started listening to soundtracks after Titanic). I really freaked out over the UE. Took me a while to realize the negative aspects of it.  

 

Similar story here. It's an incredible album mix of an incredible recording of an incredible score, with a wealth of incredible previously-unreleased material. I was overjoyed at first too. Then I started to realize how much stuff was still missing. 😋

 

@Spider-Fal @Jay It got overdubbed on top of the tracked Maul music right before the flag parade, right?

[Henry Sítrónu 494]

53 minutes ago, Smeltington said:

A TPM appreciator! Hooray!

sure, it's part of my top 5.

 

18 minutes ago, Datameister said:

 

@Spider-Fal @Jay It got overdubbed on top of the tracked Maul music right before the flag parade, right?

Oh yes indeed! UE Disc 1 Track 30, 1:48-end