How familiar is JW with the greatest film composer who ever lived?

[InTheCity 140]

And of course that would be Shostakovich. There are endless familiarities in the music but I was wondering if there are any quotes if him talking about Dmitri? 
 

Searching for quotes or interviews

 

[Jurassic Shark 12,008]

Dunno.

[Fabulin 3,506]

Re: How familiar is JW with the greatest film composer who ever lived?

 

With himself? Quite well, I suppose.

 

Re: How familiar is JW with Shostakovich?

 

Shostakovich was one of the Russian composers Williams has said a few times to have liked in his youth.

[GerateWohl 4,321]

As far as I know Shostacovich was not very pashionate about his filmmusic work. Mostly he was forced by the authorities to underline some of their propaganda movies with his music. That is why it often has a quite militaristic style.

[Tom Guernsey 2,277]

5 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

As far as I know Shostacovich was not very pashionate about his filmmusic work. Mostly he was forced by the authorities to underline some of their propaganda movies with his music. That is why it often has a quite militaristic style.

His film music is far from his best work for sure although his score to Hamlet is superb. I’m guessing one he may have cared more about than the propaganda movies he had to score. 
 

Although to get back on topic, I thought Bach was usually considered the greatest composer who ever lived. Or Beethoven. Although I listen to more Shostakovich far more...

[Falstaft 2,132]

Off the top of my head, there is this article, which reports that he lists Shostakovich as an influence, along with Prokofiev and Stravinsky: http://www.jwfan.com/?p=4551

 

In general, I think the Shostakovich influence on JW's music is far less pronounced than Prokofiev's. Even in places where it's quite Shostakovich-ian, like parts of the Battles of Yavin and Hoth, it often seems to be more of a case of Shostakovich-being-channeled-through-Walton than direct inspiration. (Indeed, that interview emphasizes how William Walton occupies a privileged place in Williams's mind.)

 

Compare:

Shostakovich Symphony No. 10, Scherzo -- overall the most "Williamsy" in his ouput: (This particular section is itself clearly indebted to the Rite of Spring...)

 

Walton, "Battle in the Air" from Battle of Britain

 

 

And Williams "Battle of Yavin" from ANH:

 

[Loert 2,509]

I bet that JW knows Prokofiev's film music better than Shostakovich's film music (particularly Alexander Nevsky, particularly The Battle on the Ice ).

[Tom 4,631]

Just curious, but does the phrase "who ever lived" really add anything to the thread title?  Are you distinguishing the category from other possible worlds or something?  

[Thor 7,452]

Shostakovich was a great classical composer who occasionally did film music, but I wouldn't label him the 'greatest film composer who ever lived'. He wasn't really a film composer to begin with.

[InTheCity 140]

I read a biography of Shostakovich where it said fifty scores for film were composed by him.

 

Perhaps I should have said that he was the greatest composer to ever pen a film score.

 

Personally I consider him the greatest composer of the 20th century.  So much of his writing is to be found in JW - the running woodwind octaves, the menacing low string octaves, the scherzos etc 

 

 

[karelm 2,901]

Shostakovich and JW are two of my favorite composers so I love the idea of this thread.  I don't know if I would say Shostakovich was the greatest film composer ever but let's assume you are speaking in hyperbole.  It is true he composed a lot of film scores but he was the pre-imeinent soviet composer working for state media when other work wasn't available.  There is also the jazz connection but Shostakovich is coming to jazz by way of a limited Soviet exposure which doesn't really sound like Western Jazz.   Honestly, what I think you mean is Shostakovich and JW both shared a love of the Russian symphonic tradition (eg: Tchiakovsky, Rimsky-Korsakov (which gets complicated because that demands French influence too, the orient and jazz).

 

I hear E.T. finale rainbow fanfare as very similar to Shosti's No. 5 ending especially with the timpani C, G, C, G, C, G, CccccCCCCCCCC.   Shostakovich's No. 5 is in D minor (ending in brilliant D major) so the notes are A, D, A, D, A, DdddddddDDDDDDDDD which is an inversion. 

 

Shostakovich up a whole step and drawn out much further at half tempo.  Also very similar is the transition from pathos to triumph ending with the tonic-dominant timpani (or inverted to dominant-tonic but the same function of pathos transformed to triumph). 

This was also the same cluster to D major in the flying sequence of E.T.  Listen to this at 0:32 cluster to the same D major Shosti used at the penultimate close of his No. 5.

 

I believe that JW isn't a huge fan of bombast.  He does it because much of his projects demand it.  Shostakovich liked bombast because of Tchaikovsky and the Russian plus German tradition of Wagner and Mahler which we know Shostakovich loved.  As all great composers, like Stravinsky, Prokofiev, and Rimsky Korsakov, they took elements from the Austria-Germans (Wagner, Bach, Mahler, Haydn), the French (Debussy and Ravel), the West (Gershwin jazz which is also a synthesis of french, orient, and blues/spirituals) and created a hybrid synthesis.  That is art and no great artist didn't do the same.  Every great artist has a tribute to those who came before.  Which is also why anyone who claims JW is derivative is an idiot.  There is no such thing as originality. 

 

[InTheCity 140]

The very un-shy music that JW writes shares most in common with Shostakovich.  
 

Film composing as a whole most closely follows his example. 

[King Mark 3,624]

I've always found this type of thread extremely off putting on a JW fan board . 

 

Someone proclaiming as a matter of fact that some random other composer is the best who ever lived and how JW "compares".  And this guy rarely scored films and I'm sure the majority here never heard one of them. 

[InTheCity 140]

2 minutes ago, King Mark said:

I've always found this type of thread extremely off putting on a JW fan board . 

 

Someone proclaiming as a matter of fact that some random other composer is the best who ever lived and how JW "compares".  And this guy rarely scored films and I'm sure the majority here never heard one of them. 

It’s not like I am picking some random nobody - this is one of the greatest classical masters of all time .  He also composed 50 film scores all while under the eye of Stalin.

 

I’ll post some examples if I have the time.  His music speaks for himself. 

 

[King Mark 3,624]

no thanks, I don't need to be "converted" to the idea 

 

Reminds me of those treads proclaiming Lord of the Rings better than JW's entire output

 

I dunno, maybe you should have phrased it differently.

 

And we all know the best film composer who ever lived is Ilaiyaraja

[InTheCity 140]

Mark its a shame you feel that way as you are missing out on some good music.

 

here is less than a minute of interesting shostakovich moments 

 

give me 60 seconds to make the case

 

you probably also know his jovial festival overture from Summon the Heroes 

 

Morricone:

Where is golden age cinema (Raksin/Hermann) with out this harmonic language?
 

 

Menken:
 

 

CE3K Conversation:
 

 

[Bryant Burnette 654]

The premise of this thread is stupid, and the title of it is clickbait-type bullshit.  Shostakovich might theoretically have been the best composer ever to score a movie; he was definitively NOT the greatest film composer.  He wouldn't even crack the top 25.

[Fabulin 3,506]

Shostakovich's score for "The First Echelon" (1955) had a Williams-like "tradition as an anchor" approach:

1:30:48

.

.

 

Overall, most of Shostakovich's film scores, even when they sound symphonic and "impressionist", are often very crude in their approach when compared to the nuance and precision of Herrmann, Williams, Goldsmith, or Morricone.

.

 

7 hours ago, InTheCity said:

Where is golden age cinema (Raksin/Hermann) with out this harmonic language?

Quote

Another of Waxman's visitors to the Mulholland Terrace home was the man who is debatably the most important symphonist of the 20th century. Like Copland here in America, he was an industry unto himself in his native Russia. The only real musical regret of this author's life is that he never had the opportunity to meet him. His name was Dmitri Shostakovich.

There is an anecdote that Shostakovich read some of Waxmann's music and thought it to be a rip-off of his own - but then Waxmann asked Shostakovich about the year when he had composed the supposed source piece. It turned out that Waxmann's piece came earlier. Considering how often Williams' influences are actually closer to home than people think, I would say that Waxman and Herrmann were responsible for a lot of what you think is Shostakovich in Williams' music. Then there is Bartok and many other modernists, some of them perhaps obscure by now, who could have been the potential inspirations.

 

Ultimately, skilled though Shostakovich was (preludes and fugues, quartets), and perhaps the only 20th century composer capable of writing more than one or two melodies as good as JW's, he was not a better composer overall. In the end, thanks to various factors, but foremost to sensitivity combined with perfectionism and dilligence, longevity, and willingness to engage the idioms of the greatest composers and "do the real thing, with some sincerity" Williams has outdone him, just as he has outdone Herrmann, Waxmann, and Korngold.

[publicist 4,643]

5 hours ago, Fabulin said:

There is an anecdote that Shostakovich read some of Waxmann's music and thought it to be a rip-off of his own - but then Waxmann asked Shostakovich about the year when he had composed the supposed source piece. It turned out that Waxmann's piece came earlier.

 

Apocryphal, but not quite true. These claims were made by third parties, the Waxman piece in question stems from 'A Place in the Sun', while the Shostakovich facsimile was composed years later, the catch being that Shosti was without access to american movies and couldn't have possible seen or heard Waxman's piece.

[InTheCity 140]

You neglect his symphonies - his most important works. His music has a level of depth that Williams isn’t able to achieve with his forwardness.  

[Fabulin 3,506]

Do I?

[Marcus 390]

Now, I absolutely adore Shostakovich, but his film music really isn't the best part of his oeuvre, and John Williams' film music is, for the most part, far more accomplished, both as pure music and as music written to enhance and coexist with another artform.

 

Some of Shostakovich's early film music efforts are quite outstanding, but as has already been mentioned, the scores he wrote for propaganda films often feel rather tepid and uninvested, and, dare I say, emotionally dishonest. 

[Bayesian 1,353]

19 minutes ago, Marcus said:

Some of Shostakovich's early film music efforts are quite outstanding, but as has already been mentioned, the scores he wrote for propaganda films often feel rather tepid and uninvested, and, dare I say, emotionally dishonest. 

Arguably, that’s to his credit, wouldn’t we say? It suggests he wasn’t a willing propagandist. 

[Jurassic Shark 12,008]

25 minutes ago, Marcus said:

Some of Shostakovich's early film music efforts are quite outstanding

 

Are there specific film works you'd like to recommend?

[publicist 4,643]

6 minutes ago, Bayesian said:

Arguably, that’s to his credit, wouldn’t we say? It suggests he wasn’t a willing propagandist. 

 

It doesn't suggest, he was in fact facing a cruel end in some siberian gulag if he would have defied Stalin's wishes, i. e. https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20150807-shostakovich-the-composer-who-was-almost-purged

[Falstaft 2,132]

It's a curious quirk of the way we tell film music history that Shostakovich, despite being the far more productive composer for films, is basically ignored, compared to his counterpart Prokofiev, who only wrote, what, 4 or 5 scores? 

 

But those happen to be for more "important" movies, and have enjoyed an afterlife in the concert hall thanks to the composer's savvy -- and their high quality too, don't get me wrong -- Nevsky is a blast. The Prokofiev scores cast both a longer shadow in critical/scholarly discourse (see Eisenstein's Film Sense, Adorno/Eisler Composing for Films, much, much else), and, in a way, a larger influence on film musical style too. Need I mention the "Battle on the Ice"?

 

@InTheCityand others who are interested, consider checking out Joan Titus's excellent series of books on DSCH's film scores with OUP: https://global.oup.com/academic/product/the-early-film-music-of-dmitry-shostakovich-9780199315147?cc=us&lang=en&. She's doing more than anyone to raise Shosty's profile as a film composer, in the anglophone world at least

[Tom Guernsey 2,277]

1 hour ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

Are there specific film works you'd like to recommend?

As I mentioned, I’d recommend Hamlet as one of his finest scores. There’s a very fine recording of it on Naxos conducted by Dimitry Yablonsky which is the first (and I think only) recording of the full score. For a wider sampling there are several albums on Chandos in fine sound and performance that contain extended suites from a good number of his scores. An alternative would be the 4CD selection of film music and jazz suites in Brilliant Classics which I got for only a few pounds.

[publicist 4,643]

 

Shosti's 5th in D minor was a springboard for several beloved, or at least respected, Williams, Goldsmith and Horner scores, note the similarity of the opening cue to the John Cassavates head blowup scene in The Fury, or its similarity to Goldsmith's existentialist theme from 'Seconds'. Horner quoted the Largo in 'Clear and Present Danger'.

 

And below you will find, after ca. 55 seconds of the first cue, Jerry's inspiration for the sinister Final Conflict theme.

 

[Jurassic Shark 12,008]

3 minutes ago, Tom Guernsey said:

As I mentioned, I’d recommend Hamlet as one of his finest scores. There’s a very fine recording of it on Naxos conducted by Dimitry Yablonsky which is the first (and I think only) recording of the full score. For a wider sampling there are several albums on Chandos in fine sound and performance that contain extended suites from a good number of his scores. An alternative would be the 4CD selection of film music and jazz suites in Brilliant Classics which I got for only a few pounds.

 

Yeah, I recently purchased his Hamlet score on Naxos when I found it very cheap (on DVD-A of all things!), and his score to The Fall of Berlin. Looking forward to check them out!

[Fabulin 3,506]

56 minutes ago, Falstaft said:

It's a curious quirk of the way we tell film music history that Shostakovich, despite being the far more productive composer for films, is basically ignored, compared to his counterpart Prokofiev, who only wrote, what, 4 or 5 scores? 

 

But those happen to be for more "important" movies, and have enjoyed an afterlife in the concert hall thanks to the composer's savvy -- and their high quality too, don't get me wrong -- Nevsky is a blast. The Prokofiev scores cast both a longer shadow in critical/scholarly discourse (see Eisenstein's Film Sense, Adorno/Eisler Composing for Films, much, much else), and, in a way, a larger influence on film musical style too. Need I mention the "Battle on the Ice"?

 

@InTheCityand others who are interested, consider checking out Joan Titus's excellent series of books on DSCH's film scores with OUP: https://global.oup.com/academic/product/the-early-film-music-of-dmitry-shostakovich-9780199315147?cc=us&lang=en&. She's doing more than anyone to raise Shosty's profile as a film composer, in the anglophone world at least

I think I've read at least a bit of that publication at some point and was surprised that a book on such a topic even exists.

 

The most bizarre thing to me in the history of film music is that Gottfried Huppertz is completely ignored.

He was:

1) The first high profile specialist (purely) film composer, described and defended in public as such by Fritz Lang "an artist of a new kind"

2) The first composer of a film score whose music achieved an immediate large scale commercial success outside of the film

3) After a century still a composer of some of the best scores in film history with Metropolis and the Nibelungen duology.

 

Back to Shostakovich and Prokofiev, there was some recognition in the professional circles at the time. Bernard Herrmann considered Nevsky to be the greatest film score ever written (he says so in the recorded 1970 home interview) and also conducted some Shostakovich on a recording.

 

[Falstaft 2,132]

3 minutes ago, Fabulin said:

I think I've read at least a bit of that publication at some point and was surprised that a book on such a topic even exists.

 

The most bizarre thing to me in the history of film music is that Gottfried Huppertz is completely ignored.

He was:

1) The first high profile specialist (purely) film composer, described and defended in public as such by Fritz Lang "an artist of a new kind"

2) The first composer of a film score whose music achieved an immediate large scale commercial success outside of the film

3) After a century still a composer of some of the best scores in film history with Metropolis and the Nibelungen duology.

 

 

No argument there. Huppert's Metropolis is a musical marvel. I suppose the unavailability of a high-quality complete recording (or any recording?) of that score until a two decades ago has something to do with its unfairly marginal status in film music history. Because boy is it a glorious thing to hear.

 

It's easy to see the appeal Shostakovich held for Herrmann -- acerbic, sarcastic, disappointed romantics both.  

[InTheCity 140]

Glad to see some Shostakovich supporters coming out of the woodwork.

 

Another thing he shares with John Williams is that they are both polystylists,

 

Shostakovich has his very serious side : the violin concerto one, the symphony 4 

 

he has his narrative sound 

most of his late symphonies - his symphony 11 is often referred to as as a film score without a film 

 

he has his jovial sound 

symphony nine,piano concerto 2

 

his incredibly sad sound

string quartets 8:15

 

and he has his very deep instrospective sound 

symphony 10, lady Macbeth 

 

ive been investing in the hardcover works - I’m totally immersed in studying this wonderful man 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mrbellamy 6,270]

Also John Williams scored Harry Potter and Shostakovich is Harry Potter

 

[karelm 2,901]

3 hours ago, InTheCity said:

Glad to see some Shostakovich supporters coming out of the woodwork.

 

Another thing he shares with John Williams is that they are both polystylists,

 

Shostakovich has his very serious side : the violin concerto one, the symphony 4 

 

he has his narrative sound 

most of his late symphonies - his symphony 11 is often referred to as as a film score without a film 

 

he has his jovial sound 

symphony nine,piano concerto 2

 

his incredibly sad sound

string quartets 8:15

 

and he has his very deep instrospective sound 

symphony 10, lady Macbeth 

 

ive been investing in the hardcover works - I’m totally immersed in studying this wonderful man 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Shostakovich, JW, and Mahler made me a composer.  You have several challenges working against you though.  Classical people hate that you are saying his symphonies are film scores without a film.  Film score people hate that you are reducing the greatness of JW by saying he's doing the thing Shosti did.   I frankly think they aren't that similar except that they are multi faceted composers who were people that embodied their time perfectly.  Shostakovich belongs to the Russian tradition by way of Austria (Mahler) with heart on sleeves music of dissident BUT lived int he Soviet system which censored that if it came across as critical.  Everything he did must be heard with a knowledge of his time and place and its impact on him.  JW owes a debt to the Russian tradition by way of England (RVW who has a big debt to the French of Ravel), Jazz of his youth (1940s and 1950's era), and Americana.  There are alot of common touch points also consider JW was only a generation after Shosti, the most influential composer of the Soviet system but frankly, I doubt JW would rank Shostakovich as a top 10 influence.  They both share common influences.  Shostakovich is a concert composer who composed a lot of film scores.  JW is a film composer who composed alot of concert music.  The very important distinction is the music we think of as JW is probably not what he even likes but is what the project required and he as a pro, delivered in spades.  That is actually a significant difference.  Shostakovich is bombastic (yes, yes, he sometimes isn't but across his body of work he is).  JW is NOT a bombastic composer but is a professional composer who uses bombast par none because the project required it.  If you asked his opinion of what his favorite scores were from him, it probably wouldn't be the more famous blockbusters we all know him from.  For example, I doubt JW would ever listen to Star Wars because he likes it.  He would listen to it because the job required it or something like it.  I bet JW prefers Sabrina to SW, Raiders, Harry Potter, etc.

[Bayesian 1,353]

What a fascinating thread this turned into today. It made me realize how little of Shostakovich’s work I know—and how feasible it is that he could become a top 5 composer for me once I start digging into his oeuvre. I plan to get going on that ASAP.

[Muad'Dib 1,800]

1 hour ago, karelm said:

For example, I doubt JW would ever listen to Star Wars because he likes it.  He would listen to it because the job required it or something like it.  I bet JW prefers Sabrina to SW, Raiders, Harry Potter, etc.

 

I remember reading somewhere around here that JW was bored of writing fanfares for the sequel trilogy -but of course, he's a professional and he did them.

I bet he was looking forward to writing other, smaller material.

[InTheCity 140]

1 hour ago, Bayesian said:

What a fascinating thread this turned into today. It made me realize how little of Shostakovich’s work I know—and how feasible it is that he could become a top 5 composer for me once I start digging into his oeuvre. I plan to get going on that ASAP.

you have chosen wisely

 

Symphony 11 is a natural starting place for film music fans

 

7 for history buffs 

 

 

[Tom 4,631]

2 hours ago, karelm said:

JW is NOT a bombastic composer but is a professional composer who uses bombast par none because the project required it.  

This maybe one of the most insightful sentences describing Williams that I have ever heard.  

[InTheCity 140]

Wikipedia on the 11th

 

Quote

The Eleventh is sometimes dubbed "a film score without the film". Indeed, the musical images have an immediacy and simplicity unusual even for Shostakovich the epic symphonist, and an additional thread is provided by the nine revolutionary songs that appear during the work. Some of these songs date back to the 19th century, others to the year 1905. Shostakovich does not merely quote these songs; he integrates them into the symphonic fabric within the bounds of his compositional style. This use of pseudo-folk material was a marked departure from his usual technique. However, it lent the symphony a strong emphasis on tonality and a generally accessible musical idiom.^[5] They were also songs the composer knew well. His family knew and sang them regularly while he was growing up.^[6]

 

I invite anyone to watch the video i posted way above and offer a composer that time after time inspires more film music

JW's main usage of winds is copied directly from Shosty - that running octave 

 

Similar with the low strings and huge string octaves

 

its all there

[Jurassic Shark 12,008]

3 hours ago, InTheCity said:

JW's main usage of winds is copied directly from Shosty - that running octave 

 

Shostakovich is not exactly the only composer who uses running octaves in woodwinds...

[bollemanneke 3,334]

I think that Assault on Beautiful Gorky piece or whatever it's called is rather disgusting, but to each his own.

[TownerFan 4,983]

Williams described the third movement of his Oboe Concerto as "Haydn playing with Shostakovich".

 

He mentioned Shostakovich as one of the musical heroes of his youth in at least 2 or 3 interviews in the past.

[karelm 2,901]

11 hours ago, InTheCity said:

JW's main usage of winds is copied directly from Shosty - that running octave...

 

...Which they are both taking from the Russian symphonic tradition.  Compare the wind run here:

with here:

 

 

 

[InTheCity 140]

2 hours ago, karelm said:

 

...Which they are both taking from the Russian symphonic tradition.  Compare the wind run here:

with here:

 

well yes they do runs - so does ravel and debussy but Shostakovich does those angsty/piercing dimished scale runs that JW does in scores like POA - that is 99% percent shostakovich 

Not exclus

2 hours ago, karelm said:

 

 

[karelm 2,901]

7 hours ago, InTheCity said:

Not exclus

 

But my example is a chromatic run which RK did as did JW.  That's my point, you are picking and choosing examples that meet your criteria.  It's not a convincing argument because you found an example that matched what you looked for as did I matching a different example from a style they both revered.  You are sort of saying West Side Story is inspired by Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliette and I am saying both West Side Story and Shakespeare were based on the Greek tragedies of Sophocles and that is the source of their influence.  We might be saying the same thing.

[InTheCity 140]

I'm either giving you too much or too little respect 

 

this is what I'm talking about

 

 

and I think you know it

 

Shosty and JW do this, very few others 

 

scales are scales, they are meaningless and trite 

 

[Remco 685]

That does reminds me of Shostakovich, but can someone confirm that it is truly his trademark? Musical ideas like that usually don’t exist in a vacuum.

[karelm 2,901]

11 hours ago, InTheCity said:

I'm either giving you too much or too little respect 

 

this is what I'm talking about

 

 

and I think you know it

 

Shosty and JW do this, very few others 

 

scales are scales, they are meaningless and trite 

 

Probably too much AND too little respect..hahaha.  This stuff is all over Tchaikovsky and Rimsky-Korsakav, but yes I hear what you are saying.  Yes, it sounds like Shosty...doing that thing Russians do with winds.

compare with this (yes, I'll grant it's more manic hyper mode making the Tchaikovsky tame by comparison but it took about 2 seconds to find a tchaik example).

 

[publicist 4,643]

On 1/26/2021 at 1:49 AM, karelm said:

JW is NOT a bombastic composer but is a professional composer who uses bombast par none because the project required it. 

 

Well, he sure didn't dodge the bombastic assignments, and without putting too fine a point on it, he's world's worst dodger with dozens of celebratory fanfares and multiple big franchises built on bombast. 

 

My take is that Williams generally dislikes working without the resources of a big orchestra (post SW) and bombast comes with the territory.

[InTheCity 140]

well this is much closer to the Azkaban example than your quasi trills 

 

 

I don't really get the bombast argument, composers use bombast when they wish and don't use it also when they wish