Joe Kraemer: “I haven’t scored a single mainstream Hollywood movie since ‘Rogue Nation’”

[KK 2938]

1 hour ago, Quintus said:

I'll be more specific: when JW passes, great film scoring in the neo-romantic style will be dead. 

 

Maybe. But there are other interesting things being done in other styles of music to look out for. And no, I'm not talking about Gia at all.

 

I will agree that mainstream films are no longer the place for great music, at least for me. That whole side of the industry has more or less become giant machines for producing sound support for noisy blockbusters.

[Jay 19099]

1 hour ago, Fabulin said:

"Great"? Please name 2 examples from each of the past 5 years, Williams and Powell excluded.

 

2016 - Star Trek Beyond, Alice Through the Looking Glass

2017 - Spider-man: Homecoming, Valerian and the City of A Thousand Planets (outside of film - Xenoblade 2, Hollow Knight, Breath of the Wild)

2018 - Jurassic World: Fallen Kingdom, Ocean's 8, Ant-Man and The Wasp (outside of film - God of War, Celeste)

2019 - Spider-man: Far From Home, Jojo Rabbit (outside of film - The Mandalorian Season 1, Mr Robot Season 4)

2020 - Soul, Wonder Woman 1984 (outside of film - The Mandalorian Season 2, Medal of Honor Above and Beyond, Final Fantasy VII Remake)

[Quintus 5265]

This is where differing definitions always come into it. 

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6408]

Even guys who used to be great like Elfman now do crap like Justice League. 

[Unlucky Bastard 7670]

Nothing Jay just listed made me wanna buy the albums.

[TSMefford 1040]

Excellent list @Jay Personally, I own the albums of almost all the film scores there!

[Luke Skywalker 723]

What a sad message from kramer. Really the industry innards seem to be full of shit.

 

and its very sad to hear he is struggling to make a living.

[KK 2938]

-

[Jay 19099]

2020 would have been a much more interesting year on the film front if covid hadn't pushed a lot of films that have good composers attached into 2021.  At least the tv and video game front was really strong in 2020

[Bayesian 676]

Let's see if I understand the current state of film scoring:

 

Film producers don't give a shit about the craft of film scoring.

Kraemer hasn't had a mainstream gig in 9 years.

Elfman has talked about his opportunities drying up.

Zimmer and his clone army have a stranglehold oligopoly, at least when it comes to high profile projects.

Composer assistants do all the work, yet aren't paid enough to survive. Meanwhile, Zimmer gets asked to do a Masterclass.

The studios lock away all their film music in vaults for decades and allow it to deteriorate.

The fact we get to enjoy any expanded releases comes down to the endless, heroic work of specialty label producers who appear to have to fight tooth and nail for every album they manage to produce.

Meanwhile, Disney still won't move forward in giving the world a properly expanded Star Wars. 

 

I know I'm cherrypicking here, but even so... this is a very unfortunate state of affairs. 

[Quintus 5265]

13 minutes ago, Gruesome Son of a Bitch said:

Even guys who used to be great like Elfman now do crap like Justice League. 

 

That's another major issue. To think that a now wholly average Alan Silvestri is behind the unremarkable music to what is the biggest grossing blockbuster of all time, and people apparently rave about it... that's where scoring is now, that's the zenith. 

[Jay 19099]

3 minutes ago, Bayesian said:

Kraemer hasn't had a mainstream gig in 9 years.

 

Rogue Nation came out 6 years ago, not 9

[Jurassic Shark 6569]

26 minutes ago, Quintus said:

This is where differing definitions always come into it. 

 

Yeah, when did "great" start to mean "OK"?

 

2 minutes ago, Jay said:

 

Rogue Nation came out 6 years ago, not 9

 

Just rotate the number 180 degrees and he's right.

[Romão 1494]

Although I agree there's still some great new film music to be found, you really have to dig for it, as others have said. I can't imagine a 10 or 12 year old falling in love with film music through the mainstream movies he or she watches and and enjoys.

 

The amount of great film music that was written for mainstream movies when I was 10 or 12 years is staggering. Just between 1992 and 1995, for example, we had stuff like:

 

Twin Peaks - Fire Walk with Me

Batman Returns

Alien 3

Basic Instinct

Sneakers

Bram Stoker's Dracula

1492: Conquest of Paradise

Jurassic Park

Schindler's List

The Nightmare Before Christmas

Stargate

Mary Shelley's Frankenstein

Interview with the Vampire

The Shadow

Legends of the Fall

The Shawshank Redemption

The Lion King

Cutthroat Island

Batman Forever

First Knight

Braveheart

Apollo 13

Waterworld

Batman Forever

 

And that's just a small sample of fairly mainstream stuff. People from my generation and earlier really had it easy to become film score fans

[Jurassic Shark 6569]

We're spoilt.

[Not Mr. Big 2847]

I disagree.  We are in the golden age of sound design!

[Quintus 5265]

Romão's was not even a creme de la creme list and it still utterly smashes all new music in movies. 

[Erik Woods 315]

15 minutes ago, Jay said:

At least the tv and video game front was really strong in 2020

Yes, there were very strong scores in the TV and especially the video game worlds BUT there were PLENTY of strong film scores in 2020.  I had a very difficult time trimming down my Top 10 scores of 2020 list. Lots of great stuff, unfortunately,  left on the cutting room floor.

[Edmilson 1971]

For everyone complaining that there isn't great film music being written, I think this may be helpful:

 

https://moviemusicuk.us/2021/01/26/movie-music-uk-awards-2020/

 

All the best film music that came out last year selected by a specialist.

[Erik Woods 315]

1 minute ago, Edmilson said:

For everyone complaining that there isn't great film music being written, I think this may be helpful:

 

https://moviemusicuk.us/2021/01/26/movie-music-uk-awards-2020/

 

All the best film music that came out last year selected by a specialist.

 

^ THIS!!!!!!!

[Romão 1494]

7 minutes ago, Quintus said:

Romão's was not even a creme de la creme list and it still utterly smashes all new music in movies. 

 

It really was a different time. Pretty much the bulk of the highest grossing movies from those years had great scores by really talented composers. You really have to dig much deeper these days

[Jay 19099]

The nice thing about these days, on the other hand, is that if you are curious about a score you don't have to drive to a store and buy it and hope you end up liking it, you can just subscribe to an online music service and listen to all new film music coming out for free to decide what you want to buy

[Romão 1494]

2 minutes ago, Jay said:

The nice thing about these days, on the other hand, is that if you are curious about a score you don't have to drive to a store and buy it and hope you end up liking it, you can just subscribe to an online music service and listen to all new film music coming out for free to decide what you want to buy

 

Yes, that's true and it evens out things a bit. But it's still a shame that the larger canvas for musical expression and larger orchestral budgets are not being given to more talented composers. People like Elliot Goldenthal should be in their creative prime, but instead write a score every 5 years or so

[Jay 19099]

I thought he had a head injury that almost completely halted his writing?

[Jurassic Shark 6569]

I know he was sick in some way. I'm sure @Thor knows the details!

 

1 hour ago, Erik Woods said:

True. That is some evil shit right there.

 

One has to wonder whether Balfe lobbied to get the gig before Kraemer was out of the picture, or if McQuarrie took the initiative.

[Quintus 5265]

31 minutes ago, Jay said:

The nice thing about these days, on the other hand, is that if you are curious about a score you don't have to drive to a store and buy it and hope you end up liking it, you can just subscribe to an online music service and listen to all new film music coming out for free to decide what you want to buy

 

I actually lament the passing of the days when that sort of effort was part and parcel of getting into a score. 

[SilverTrumpet 177]

So why isn't there a similar enjoyment of the effort required in finding great scores? 

[Jurassic Shark 6569]

Because you have to listen through so much mediocre music.

[SilverTrumpet 177]

But when you used to have to go out to the store to buy a score, you usually had to talk to so many mediocre people.

[Jurassic Shark 6569]

At least they didn't make mediocre music and hum it to me.

[Romão 1494]

40 minutes ago, Jay said:

I thought he had a head injury that almost completely halted his writing?

 

Yes, and the Titus/300 debacle might have soured him off working with major studios

[Jay 19099]

20 hours ago, Quintus said:

 

I actually lament the passing of the days when that sort of effort was part and parcel of getting into a score. 

 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I like investing my money in things I already know I like, more so than gambles, personally.

 

The Spotify stream is the (free) gamble.  Obtaining the physical CD once you know you like it is the reward!

[Jurassic Shark 6569]

Better check out those awesome 30 seconds clips on Allmusic!

[KK 2938]

19 minutes ago, SilverTrumpet said:

But when you used to have to go out to the store to buy a score, you usually had to talk to so many mediocre people.

Not the same thing. Back in the day, the average big movie you went to see in the theatres had some great score you came out humming in your head (re: everything on @Romão’s list). Then you go out of your way to get your hands on that music.

 

I would say that argument still held water in the 00s, which is when I got exposed to folk music. 

 

That is a much rarer occurrence now. I think post-2010, you’d be more hard pressed to find scores that inspire new generations of fans. And it doesn’t help that you have to get through an hour of meandering underscore to find 5 minutes of good stuff on the average album.

 

Thank God for Spotify algorithms, which have pointed me to artists I would never have discovered if I was just swimming around the usual Hollywood guys. Otherwise, keeping up with modern film music would truly be unbearable.

[Lord Zimmer 124]

Personally, I feel all is going fine.

[Disco Stu 10759]

4 minutes ago, Lord Zimmer said:

Personally, I feel all is going fine.

 

How are the Zimlings?

[Jurassic Shark 6569]

2 hours ago, Jay said:

I thought he had a head injury that almost completely halted his writing?

 

Listening to @Lord Zimmer can do unspeakable things to a man.

[Thor 4023]

2 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

I know he was sick in some way. I'm sure @Thor knows the details!

 

Goldenthal fell off a chair and smashed his head in the floor about 10 years ago. He's almost back to form now, but it took him a long time to recover, especially his speech. But his reluctance to do more high profile stuff in that period isn't really related to that. It's a self-imposed restriction. Back in the early 2010s, he told me he wanted to do less Hollywood action movies and more small stuff.

 

As for the age-old "Everything sucks these days! Everything used to be so much better back in the golden days of yonder" attitude, I've just learned to ignore that over the years. It's basically people stuck in Plato's cave. Sometimes, it doesn't even work to give them some names and titles to explore. You'll have to physically drag them out of the cave and show them the real world.

 

There's a LOT of great stuff being produced today, and although my taste doesn't always correspond with that of Erik and Jon Broxton (since they were previously cited), I still managed to find a long list of superb scores just last year - as I mention in my 2020 podcast, or available to view in the awards thread.

 

You just have to make an effort and explore. It's very easy, especially in this day and age, with countless podcasts and review sites and what-have-you. And you obviously need an open attitude. If you ignore all suggestions, because you've already made up your mind that everything sucks these days, and nobody will be able to convince you otherwise, you'll remain in Plato's cave for the rest of your life. Which, to some, is a comfort, I guess.

 

None of this has anything to do with Joe Kraemer and his tirade, but I can see why the discussion veered that way.

[Jurassic Shark 6569]

2 minutes ago, Thor said:

There's a LOT of great stuff being produced today, and although my taste doesn't always correspond with that of Erik and Jon Broxton (since they were previously cited), I still managed to find a long list of superb stuff just last year - as I mention in my 2020 podcast, or available to view in the awards thread.

 

I listen to your yearly webcast of highlights, and I'm sorry to say I usually don't hear much that interests me. That's of course partially due to differences in taste, but I do think scores have become more generic and musically less interesting in recent years.

[Thor 4023]

Well, how many new scores did you listen to in 2020? If your taste doesn't correspond to mine, it will probably correspond better to others. You should also check out some of the runner-ups I mentioned, or other podcasts and review sites. Erik and Jon, for example, lean more towards the classically symphonic style, which might be more up your alley. But I appreciate you taking a listen!

[Jurassic Shark 6569]

2 minutes ago, Thor said:

Erik and Jon, for example, lean more towards the classically symphonic style, which might be more up your alley.

 

It definitely is, and I found a few things on Jon's list I'll check out.

 

3 minutes ago, Thor said:

But I appreciate you taking a listen!

 

Gotta hear that ASMR voice!

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6408]

The Kids these days love Hans Zimmer.

[Harry Irene 44]

7 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

I haven’t scored a single mainstream Hollywood movie since ‘Rogue Nation’ either.

I haven't scored any film before or after Rogue Nation.

[Marian Schedenig 3281]

Joe Kraemer posted a followup thread on Twitter:

 

 

[Docteur Qui 764]

Fascinating topic. It’s interesting to see the backlash boiling up about the film composing industry. I’m not at all surprised to hear about these awful conditions, and HZ has actively contributed to it with his business model. His legacy in Hollywood will ultimately not be a musical one, but a capitalistic one.

 

I had the opportunity to move to LA a few years ago and try to crack into the industry. It didn’t take me long to weigh up the options and stay in Australia instead. I do not regret that decision, not least because right now COVID has made things even more difficult for young composers (and as a foreigner I would’ve gone broke instantly). I will never write a Hollywood score now, but I also will not be homeless, starving or exploited in an attempt to do so. Some dreams are not worth pursuing. And for what it’s worth I’ve been getting some great work here while also earning a solid wage teaching. I will be able to buy my own home in a few years which I imagine is not remotely the case for the thousands of people competing in LA.

[Unlucky Bastard 7670]

LA? What a shithole

[Ricard 1572]

As long as people think that "life is unfair", they're never gonna get what they want.

[Arpy 3761]

Kraemer's comments are refreshing to hear in what is such a hush industry, and reflective of the state of the entertainment industry at large. Crunch, deadlines and streaming culture have made the business of filmmaking, music making, game making more hurried than usual. I remember when film productions were years long and there was time to make things on a creative impulse and not to meet schedules (granted technology has streamlined things).

[Unlucky Bastard 7670]

57 minutes ago, Ricard said:

As long as people think that "life is unfair", they're never gonna get what they want.

 

Ehh sure, but when the field is disproportionately stacked against you and the goalposts are haphazardly changed on a whim by decision makers far more powerful and influential than you, all it does is discourage you from playing. Even if you keep telling yourself that life is actually "fair", you might still not get what you want, all because you're actively blocked from benefitting.

[bruce marshall 651]

Since when has being a musician guaranteed financial security or artistic freedom?