Jump to content

Joe Kraemer: “I haven’t scored a single mainstream Hollywood movie since ‘Rogue Nation’”


Alex
 Share

Recommended Posts

5 minutes ago, Mephariel said:

 

The fact that you mentioned Toprak being a woman as a reason for her getting a gig is ridiculous already. Like for your age, you shouldn't be this immature. And what about Nathan Johnson, Alexandre Desplat, Patrick Doyle, Natalie Holt, Thomas Newman? How are they getting work? What about Christophe Beck, Mark Mothersbaugh, Hildur Guðnadóttir, Martin Phipps? How are they getting work. I can keep going and going. Those guys and gals are not RCP. If Kraemer can't find a job, that is on him. Everyone else has no issue finding a job.

 

As for your comment about Zimmer. I guess Ron Howard, Christopher Nolan, Ridley Scott, Gore Verbinski, Terrence Malick, and Denis Villeneuve know nothing about film music. Spielberg, who gushed over Crimson Tide and wanted Zimmer to lead Dreamworks knows nothing about film music either. James Cameron, who has enough musical sensibility to pick James Horner as a frequent collaborator said Zimmer was one of the three modern day masters, along with Horner and Williams. He knows nothing about film music either. Apparently since Dune was ranked 7th on Filmtracks community awards, even the film music community knows nothing about film music. IFMCA, a film music award committee so in love with melodic music that they nominated Giacchino 44 times, just nominated Dune as one of the scores of the year and voted Wonder Woman 84 as the best fantasy score of last year. They also know nothing about film music.

 

Only you know about film music huh? And you think Zimmer is egotistic. That is rich. 

 

BTW, have you seen Zimmer's concerts. Over 1 million people flocked to stadiums and areans to listen to...thematic and melodic music. So yeah, Zimmer did everything he could to prop up orchestra, electronic, and film music. Nobody else did more.  

 

Can you write without getting personal? If you can, I will talk to you. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, HunterTech said:

 

Except how the hell is he going to get gigs if McQ isn't there to recommend him to several peers? That's exactly how MV/RCP got running: Zimmer was too busy to do a particular score, so here's an associate of his to take care of the job. Hell, that's how even some midtier composers managed to have relatively decent careers despite not being too big. James Horner wasn't able to fully do Hocus Pocus, but was able to convince Disney to take John Debney in his place.

 

It's all about the connections you form in this incredibly tight industry, which McQ had certainly promised to help Kraemer with before he got way too over his head with what happened on RN. How else are you supposed to be hired otherwise? Because chances are, smaller gigs (which JK absolutely has plenty of) aren't exactly a guarantee for someone to upgrade to the big leagues (McCreary being the most successful recent case in this regard, and even then he's only now doing bigger pictures after so many years on television).

 

It's a cutthroat industry, and in this current climate, studios just want what's incredibly marketable and familiar, without much of a care over what it is they're selling. It's really as simple as that.

 

I love how you act like Zimmer is only guy with connections. Last time I check, McCreary, Toprak, Marianelli, Newman, Pemberton, Ross/Reznor, Holt, Beck, Desplat, etc...none of them have issues getting gigs. If you depend on ONE director to keep his promise, and that is your lifeline, that is on you. Kraemer has been around since 1998. He has plenty of time to get connections. He has plenty of time to move up in the industry. He didn't. Others did. It is really as simple as that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

5 minutes ago, HunterTech said:

You do realize Williams had to build to get to the point he was in 1975, right?

And you do realize he was very talented and very hard-working, right?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, JTW said:

Can you write without getting personal? If you can, I will talk to you. 

 

I called you out on your sexist remarks and your immaturity as others did. Doesn't matter if you don't talk to me. You don't have a counter anyway and you know it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Mephariel said:

 

I called you out on your sexist remarks and your immaturity as others did. Doesn't matter if you don't talk to me. You don't have a counter anyway and you know it.

I don't like getting insulted, not by you, not by anyone else. I don't care one bit if people can't accept the truth and out of lack of reasoning they resort to cheap shots. That's typical social media rhetoric, I'm used to it. But don't expect me to react to it, because I do not tolerate it. I never insult anyone, and that's what I expect from others as well. 

If you stay on the SUBJECT, then I'm game. Otherwise spare me your comments. Thanks. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, Mephariel said:

 

I love how you act like Zimmer is only guy with connections. Last time I check, McCreary, Toprak, Marianelli, Newman, Pemberton, Ross/Reznor, Holt, Beck, Desplat, etc...none of them have issues getting gigs. If you depend on ONE director to keep his promise, and that is your lifeline, that is on you. Kraemer has been around since 1998. He has plenty of time to get connections. He has plenty of time to move up in the industry. He didn't. Others did. It is really as simple as that.

 

Jeez, did you miss the part where I mentioned Horner and Debney on Hocus Pocus?

 

McQ and Kraemer were buddies for the longest time, so forgive me if I think it's not too unreasonable that Joe actually expected the promises to go anywhere (seeing as McQuarrie only had writing gigs for the longest time). Not to mention: these guys were acquainted with the likes of Bryan Singer, who already had his regular with John Ottman (someone who already struggles a bit finding work elsewhere). And of course, Singer is not a name you say in a good light these days, so even more bad luck there.

 

Also: a bit ironic that you dismiss him depending on the sole partnership, when Spielberg is effectively the reason Williams had as long and fruitful of a career as he did. Star Wars likely wouldn't be what it is if Spielberg hadn't been so insistent on JW to Lucas. Perhaps it’s a bit unfair using such a famous collaboration duo in a comparison like this, but that is a clear example of someone who always had the others back no matter what, leading to a wealth of opportunities once the gold struck.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, Mephariel said:

 

So because you think her music wasn't good, it means she only got hired because she is a woman? And you do know Joker won nearly every award in the books right? Seems like they made the right decision. 

 

There are many reasons why a director would choose Toprak over Williams. Perhaps she has an understanding of the current scoring landscape. Ability to use technology/synth. She is a fresh voice. She could be a great collaborator. Maybe the director likes how she does spotting. Maybe the director never met Williams or wasn't a fan...   

It's not just me, lots of other people think so. Naturally I know that Joker won every award, and imho it was because the composer was female and they wanted to award a female composer in the name of feminism and gender equality. They didn't care if it was indeed "the best" score, only the fact that it was written by a woman.

Don't get me wrong. I would LOVE it if there were one or more truly great female composers working today. Again, all I care about is the Music. If a hermaphrodite would be one of the best composers, I would be listening to their scores all the time. What I don't like is gender and race propaganda pushing people who aren't qualified and best for the job getting hired just because of their sex or race. That's sexism and racism and discrimination and the death of the art form of Film Music.

Let Talent be the only factor in hiring a Film Composer.

 

I didn't say every director, I was asking Holko. For me, there are absolutely no reason whatsoever to choose Toprak over Williams. Not because of his sex or race. But because imo he's the best in the business. Art has and should nothing to do with anything but talent.

Pushing people with insufficient talent is both discriminating more talented people and hurting art itself.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, HunterTech said:

 

Jeez, did you miss the part where I mentioned Horner and Debney on Hocus Pocus?

 

McQ and Kraemer were buddies for the longest time, so forgive me if I think it's not too unreasonable that Joe actually expected the promises to go anywhere (seeing as McQuarrie only had writing gigs for the longest time). Not to mention: these guys were acquainted with the likes of Bryan Singer, who already had his regular with John Ottman (someone who already struggles a bit finding work elsewhere). And of course, Singer is not a name you say in a good light these days, so even more bad luck there.

 

Also: a bit ironic that you dismiss him depending on the sole partnership, when Spielberg is effectively the reason Williams had as long and fruitful of a career as he did. Star Wars likely wouldn't be what it is if Spielberg hadn't been so insistent on JW to Lucas. Perhaps it’s a bit unfair using such a famous collaboration duo in a comparison like this, but that is a clear example of someone who always had the others back no matter what, leading to a wealth of opportunities.

 

I get what you are saying, but honestly, betting your career on having some sort of Spielberg/Williams relationship is a bit of risk taking isn't it? I mean, McQuarrie isn't Spielberg anyway and probably doesn't have anywhere near the connections as Spielberg. I mean, I don't care how close I am to someone at work, I would never trust someone who said, "I'll get you the biggest gig. I promise you that." I take the next opportunity available and secure my future. I just don't understand how this is not on Kraemer. Everyone else works with multiple directors and has has no trouble finding work. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, JTW said:

Let Talent be the only factor in hiring a Film Composer.

 

This.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, JTW said:

 

And you do realize he was very talented and very hard-working, right?

And he was already 44. I think, that needs to be taken into account. When he - in a way - found his musical voice he had already 14 years of scoring experience and even more as an arranger and musician.

And as he said many times he had some fortunate conditions and he worked his ass off.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 28/01/2021 at 11:53 AM, Thor said:

Even he gives a lot of vitriol about current state of affairs, I'd say that is good for him! It's only healthy to do a mix of big Hollywood projects and smaller indie affairs, if you're in a position to choose between them. Elfman has done the same thing consistently over the last two decades, and his best work is almost always the indie stuff.

 

Since this topic was ressurected, I'll have to echo my own sentiments from a year ago. Not getting hired by mainstream Hollywood isn't necessarily all bad. There are a lot of exciting things happening outside Hollywood, either on the US indie scene or in other countries. A great example in recent years is Atli Örvarsson, who - even though he did some fine things in the US too (like THE EAGLE) -- has found new inspiration and the possiblity to explore new musical territories after moving back to Iceland a few years ago, doing local productions.

 

So IMO Kraemer should look at those venues instead, even if those jobs aren't necessarily as well paid.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, Mephariel said:

 

So because you think her music wasn't good, it means she only got hired because she is a woman? And you do know Joker won nearly every award in the books right? Seems like they made the right decision. 

 

There are many reasons why a director would choose Toprak over Williams. Perhaps she has an understanding of the current scoring landscape. Ability to use technology/synth. She is a fresh voice. She could be a great collaborator. Maybe the director likes how she does spotting. Maybe the director never met Williams or wasn't a fan...   

 

None of what I said was a cheap shot. You made a sexist statement and you refused to own up to it. That is number 1 and that is on you. Number 2, if anything you can't accept the truth. I explained my argument. It is not my fault you got caught with making dumb claims. You can't accept that great directors love Zimmer, even Spielberg and Horner. You can't accept that the film music community ranked his scores highly, and IFMCA does as well. He also won numerous mainstream awards, and sold out arenas. You made a ridiculous statement saying that Zimmer fans don't know anything about film music. Basically directors, film music fans, actors, judges, everyone knows nothing. Only you do. And you still have the guts to get angry about being insulted. I think you insulted yourself more than anything.

Calling me sexist because I have an opinion which is shared by many, just because you disagree with it is an INSULT. If you call me or what I write that one more time, I will not reply to you anymore. 

 

You keep meandering. You said Zimmer made film music popular. I said he made generic, repetitive, minimalistic film music popular to the normies. I never said Zimmer wasn't a popular or appreciated composer. 

Just because he won awards or have sold-out concerts doesn't make him a GOOD composer. Big Brother is watched by a lot of people, but that doesn't make it quality television. I'm not saying Zimmer's music is as bad as Big Brother. I'm saying Zimmer is McDonald's hamburger, and Williams, Goldsmith, etc. are gourmet cuisine. That's not to say that sometimes a hamburger can't be delicious, but people who have real taste, like good food, not fast food that smells good, tastes pretty good, but overall is forgettable and low quality.

11 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

And he was already 44. I think, that needs to be taken into account. When he - in a way - found his musical voice he had already 14 years of scoring experience and even more as an arranger and musician.

And as he said many times he had some fortunate conditions and he worked his ass off.

 

Williams was already extremely talented at a very early age. He was a sensational pianist, had his own orchestra in his 20s, worked clubs, and soon after in Hollywood as a session pianist, then as an orchestrator, arranger, and finally composer and conductor. By the time he was 44, he was a seasoned veteran. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The more you say "shared by many," the more I want to ask if you have any actual statistics/testimonies to back you up. Because I'll agree with Mephariel on this: I don't think the average joe really cares all that much about the inner workings of the film score industry. They just like whatever manages to stick out to them.

 

Hell, I think a lot of the dedicated fans are more lukewarm than actually appalled, since it was common to hear that CM was certainly a score that wore its influences on its sleeves without really making a particularly cohesive package out of them. A frankly much more constructive piece of criticism that's more relevant to Toprak's strengths and weaknesses as a composer.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, Mephariel said:

Once again, completely misused the word "talent." How do you even know what Toprak's "talent" level is?

I have ears.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And I have enough knowledge of the music in the MCU to say that even the more talented composers struggled on some of the films they did, so it's actually reasonable to say that we can't really judge her talents based on the one big entry.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, JTW said:

Calling me sexist because I have an opinion which is shared by many, just because you disagree with it is an INSULT. If you call me or what I write that one more time, I will not reply to you anymore. 

 

You keep meandering. You said Zimmer made film music popular. I said he made generic, repetitive, minimalistic film music popular to the normies. I never said Zimmer wasn't a popular or appreciated composer. 

Just because he won awards or have sold-out concerts doesn't make him a GOOD composer. Big Brother is watched by a lot of people, but that doesn't make it quality television. I'm not saying Zimmer's music is as bad as Big Brother. I'm saying Zimmer is McDonald's hamburger, and Williams, Goldsmith, etc. are gourmet cuisine. That's not to say that sometimes a hamburger can't be delicious, but people who have real taste, like good food, not fast food that smells good, tastes pretty good, but overall is forgettable and low quality.

Williams was already extremely talented at a very early age. He was a sensational pianist, had his own orchestra in his 20s, worked clubs, and soon after in Hollywood as a session pianist, then as an orchestrator, arranger, and finally composer and conductor. By the time he was 44, he was a seasoned veteran. 

 

You said that Zimmer is "popular among normies who know nothing about film music." Zimmer has worked with some of the finest directors in Hollywood and his scores has won awards in the mainstream AND among film music fans, including the IFMCA. You basically saying nobody knows anything about film music, inside and outside the industry. It is a preposterous statement. And I never said that winning awards and or sold-out concerts makes him a good composer. That is something you made up. I pointed out his concerts to show that he embraced thematic and melodic music and is a champion of it. Zimmer doesn't just make minimalistic music popular, but also orchestral music. You don't think he is a good composer. That is fine. You are in the minority.  

 

Everything else you said is nothing but your opinion. To me, Zimmer is gourmet burger, his music both impressive and accessible. Nothing wrong with that.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, HunterTech said:

The more you say "shared by many," the more I want to ask if you have any actual statistics/testimonies to back you up.

Do you have any to back up what you're saying? Come on. You talk to people, I talk to people. This is not a court room trial where I or you have to present our evidences to back up our opinions. 

However I respect your opinion and I expect you to respect mine. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, JTW said:

I have ears.

 

 

 

Ears tells you whether or not her music is good to you, not whether or not she has talent. 

 

And guess what, I have ears too. Zimmer is one of the most talented composer based on my ears. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, HunterTech said:

And I have enough knowledge of the music in the MCU to say that even the more talented composers struggled on some of the films they did, so it's actually reasonable to say that we can't really judge her talents based on the one big entry.

Listen, you can like Pinar Toprak, I don't care. I don't think she's a good composer, and I believe that she wouldn't be getting the big movies if she weren't female. I wish she WERE really talented because then I wouldn't have to think that she got the job because of her sex. Then I would believe she got the job because she was talented. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, JTW said:

Do you have any to back up what you're saying? Come on. You talk to people, I talk to people. This is not a court room trial where I or you have to present our evidences to back up our opinions. 

However I respect your opinion and I expect you to respect mine. 

 

"I don't want to back up anything. Just please respect me."

 

Yeah, I am done for the night. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Mephariel said:

 

Ears tells you whether or not her music is good to you, not whether or not she has talent. 

 

And guess what, I have ears too. Zimmer is one of the most talented composer based on my ears. 

Uh... Doesn't being talented equal writing good music? 

 

I respect your opinion about Zimmer. I like some of his scores, too, especially his early ones like RAIN MAN and DRIVING MISS DAISY. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, JTW said:

Do you have any to back up what you're saying? Come on. You talk to people, I talk to people. This is not a court room trial where I or you have to present our evidences to back up our opinions. 

However I respect your opinion and I expect you to respect mine. 

 

Dude, film score fandom is such a niche that I actually would like to know where else these opinions are being held, since I see plenty of discussion about the medium that don't tread in some of these waters much.

 

I certainly have sounded a bit aggressive at points, but I just want to understand how some think better. And so far, I'm honestly a bit lost. I know I know: you have no obligation to explain yourself, but I evidently am not alone if there’s some pushback from others as well.

 

Of course, you do as you please. It's a free forum, after all.

 

4 minutes ago, JTW said:

Listen, you can like Pinar Toprak, I don't care. I don't think she's a good composer, and I believe that she wouldn't be getting the big movies if she weren't female. I wish she WERE really talented because then I wouldn't have to think that she got the job because of her sex. Then I would believe she got the job because she was talented. 

 

Well, give her some time maybe? Some composers simply take longer to develop themselves, since ultimately even the best of the best can't match the sheer willpower that is Williams. Obviously in this climate, that is an incredibly difficult thing to ask for, with how much a lot of films are made in a way to basically stifle creativity. But if Captain Marvel is supposed to be her big starting point in getting more gigs, then who knows what she might excell at from here.

 

(I could shoot myself in the foot and mention that Toprak did unofficially come out of the RCP well despite never being credited on anything, plus Giacchino needing to assist her on the CM score. But I don't think any of that would actually relevant.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 05/04/2022 at 4:19 AM, Mephariel said:

 

You said that Zimmer is "popular among normies who know nothing about film music." Zimmer has worked with some of the finest directors in Hollywood and his scores has won awards in the mainstream AND among film music fans, including the IFMCA. You basically saying nobody knows anything about film music, inside and outside the industry. It is a preposterous statement. And I never said that winning awards and or sold-out concerts makes him a good composer. That is something you made up. I pointed out his concerts to show that he embraced thematic and melodic music and is a champion of it. Zimmer doesn't just make minimalistic music popular, but also orchestral music. You don't think he is a good composer. That is fine. You are in the minority.  

 

Everything else you said is nothing but your opinion. To me, Zimmer is gourmet burger, his music both impressive and accessible. Nothing wrong with that.  

None of these things prove that Zimmer is a good composer. He is one of the most popular composers among the normies, who Zimmer and Co. have conditioned by his generic, minimalistic scores over the decades. He's got very good connections, he's a very talented producer and businessman who gets the best movies because he and his dozens of ghostwriters work quick and efficiently and the normies love what they give them, like people like McDonald's. 

Studios and directors don't care if Zimmer or his many ghosts write the music, just that it sound good and be ready on time. And Zimmer delivers and takes credit for other composers' work. 4 other composers worked on the score to DUNE, yet only Zimmer won an Oscar for it. 

 

You seem to be blinded by your love for Zimmer and don't want to see the truth that I and as a matter of fact many on this forum has said about Zimmer. But it's perfectly fine if you want to think that he's one of the greatest. It's your ears after all. 

Those familiar in the film music industry have been well aware for years that Zimmer doesn't write his scores all by himself, but many ghostwriters do the work for him and he takes credit for it and takes the big money. He has some good scores, I like several myself, but a serious film music aficionado can't take him seriously as a composer, especially knowing how he operates and how he misleads his fans. 

 

On 05/04/2022 at 4:35 AM, HunterTech said:

Well, give her some time maybe? Some composers simply take longer to develop themselves, since ultimately even the best of the best can't match the sheer willpower that is Williams. Obviously in this climate, that is an incredibly difficult thing to ask for, with how much a lot of films are made in a way to basically stifle creativity. But if Captain Marvel is supposed to be her big starting point in getting more gigs, then who knows what she might excell at from here.

 

(I could shoot myself in the foot and mention that Toprak did unofficially come out of the RCP well despite never being credited on anything, plus Giacchino needing to assist her on the CM score. But I don't think any of that would actually relevant.)

Again, I accept that you like her. I don't. I don't like when a composer looks like a supermodel rather than a hard-working artist, and I don't like it when composers are celebrated for being female rather than for writing great scores. Because it's just wrong. Wrong, because those who might be more talented are discriminated, in order to give these female composers forced jobs to prove themselves. That's not good for them, either, because they will think they're better than they really are. If I were a minority, I wouldn't want any charity. I would want an opportunity, yes, but not because I'm a minority, but because I was so talented that my work speaks for itself. 

And I see female composers appearing from nowhere lately and you can say that now they finally have opportunities, and thay might be true. But I believe forcing a director to hire someone because of their sex or race is wrong on many levels. If Toprak was so talented, I would be the first to cheer for her. But I listened to her score to CAPTAIN MARVEL and found it boring. 

And you say let her give some time to develop? She was given a major Hollywood blockbuster at such a young age. And don't tell me that feminism and tokenism didn't play major parts in it. John Williams had passed 40 when he got his first big disaster films. CM was only a success because it preceded Avengers Endgame and everyone wanted to see it. 

But I'm not saying that Toprak is a bad composer. I'm saying she's not nearly as good that she should be getting gigs as big as she does. Especially when there are many, more talented composers out there. Yes, they are men and they are white. Who cares?  All every normal person should care about is how good the Music is. I don't care if the composer is a man, a woman, white, black.

The MUSIC be good, nothing else matters. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You see, the problem I have with all this is that we're living in an age where everyone gets offended by anything that differs from what they are thinking, and they instantly get offended by and attack anyone who disagrees with them and call them names and get personal. And when that person fights back or defends themselves, they act like they were the victims and they were insulted. That's the problem with the hypocrisy people have taken on in recent years. 

 

It doesn't occur to you that I and all those other people who think like me might be offended by the opinions of those who think that Zimmer is a musical god or that people like Pinar Toprak or Hildur Guðnadóttir are not the byproducts of forced feminism and tokenism? But you know, unlike them, I don't start attacking them, get personal if I disagree with them. I simply write down my personal opinion that is shared by many people I know. And my opinion is just as valid as theirs, whether they like it or not. And this bullying, lynching mob attitude that some people on social media, or on this forum take on, is absolutely appalling and unacceptable. People should respect each other's opinions and accept the fact that they might be wrong. Or if they are right, the other one is entitled to their opinion just as much as they do. That's how a democracy works. 

 

So if someone enjoys something that I dislike, or I enjoy something someone dislikes, I have the right to say that I dislike it without getting attacked, and they have the right to say that they dislike what I enjoy without me attacking them for it. It's as simple as that. 

 

I've said this before, and I will say it again. I don't care about other people pushing back if they disagree. I don't like nor tolerate getting bullied by anyone and no one can intimidate me, no matter how many they are. I just don't care. However by politeness, reasoning, facts and kindness I can be persuaded, reasoned with. But only by that. That's how everyone should treat one another. 

 

Well imho the fast food analogy is one that works for what Hans Zimmer represents. I'm saying this by owning at least a dozen Zimmer scores. E.G. his (and his co-composers') score to WONDER WOMAN 1984 I like very much and it was one of my favorite scores of 2021. But I know how, under what circumstances he writes his scores, and that to a score like WW'84 there are 3 generic, patchworks he produces.

The Zimmer-effect has been discussed on this forum, so this is not new. it's a well-documented phenomenon, there even was an article on it in Vanity Fair not long ago. 

 

When I or anyone expresses their opinion, it's not with the intention to insult or hurt anyone's feelings. But in a society it's simply unavoidable. And someone will always be offended by something someone says. If we keep getting offended by everything, sooner or later there will be nothing left that can be discussed. That's not democracy. People should stop being so sensitive and try to accept other people's opinions even if they find it insulting or offending just because they disagree with it. We need to accept that there are people who like Hans Zimmer and there are people who dislike him. The same with Pinar Toprak and female composers, vice versa.

As long as people can have a civilized conversation, even a debate without getting personal and without attacking and insulting the other, I believe everyone benefits from it.

41 minutes ago, MaxTheHouseelf said:

 

The fundamental point I think you seem to miss with this view is that, in many fields, women are still extremely underrepresented, not because they are less "talented" (whatever that means) or less women want to do these jobs, but simply because men tend to recommend (and prefer) other men for jobs in the industry in general. This can be observed in almost all fields.

 

So at this point, I'd say it's a good thing that female composers get high-profile scoring jobs, even if it is just for the sake of being female, because it reduces gender inequality in the first place, and also means that they'll have more clout to make sure other females get into scoring as well.

 

In the end, very few will be exceptional artists and the majority will be average, just like male composers, simple gaussian statistics. But the factor of inequality, that resulted because of males giving jobs exclusively to males, has been eliminated. That's the point.

 

I just see a heated discussion with people exchanging their views, without getting into personal insults. This was the standard some years ago, good that this is still possible here, on many places on the internet, it's not.

I agree that it's good that women are represented PROVIDED they are qualified for the job they are hired for. I WANT talented women composers to get great jobs to be able to prove themselves. But above all else, I want the best possible scores to be written, and I don't want that agendas such as feminism or PC force studios and directors to hire people they don't really want to work with because they aren't the best and most talented. 

 

I know this is a very big dilemma, but I also see that the world is not dealing with this the way it should. There are extremities on both sides. People either don't want female or poc composers in the business or they want to force them by discriminating those who are clearly qualified and would be the obvious choices. Both sides think wrong, both sides discriminate another group of people.

There should be a compromise that the world of Film Music and the Audience would benefit from the most. 

 

Summa summarum: I wish that every talented film composer, regardless of their sex or skin color have an opportunity to show their qualities based on their talent and their talent alone, without anyone getting discriminated by it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, MaxTheHouseelf said:

I just see a heated discussion with people exchanging their views, without getting into personal insults. This was the standard some years ago, good that this is still possible here, on many places on the internet, it's not.


Admittedly, I mainly said that because we've either risked or have outright broken the revised rules at this point, since there have absolutely been mentioned subjects that the mod team has decided is too touchy for the forum per past incidents.

I absolutely applaud that we've been able to stay at the grounds where we're still trying to hear each other out, but I wouldn't be surprised if the higher ups step in to issue a warning soon after.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, HunterTech said:


Admittedly, I mainly said that because we've either risked or have outright broken the revised rules at this point, since there have absolutely been mentioned subjects that the mod team has decided is too touchy for the forum per past incidents.

I absolutely applaud that we've been able to stay at the grounds where we're still trying to hear each other out, but I wouldn't be surprised if the higher ups step in to issue a warning soon after.

Let's try not be so oversensitive about everything we disagree with and life will instantly become a much more tolerable place instead of an Orwellian nightmare.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, JTW said:

I agree that it's good that women are represented PROVIDED they are qualified for the job they are hired for. I WANT talented women composers to get great jobs to be able to prove themselves. But above all else, I want the best possible scores to be written, and I don't want that agendas such as feminism or PC force studios and directors to hire people they don't really want to work with because they aren't the best and most talented. 

 

I know this is a very big dilemma, but I also see that the world is not dealing with this the way it should. There are extremities on both sides. People either don't want female or poc composers in the business or they want to force them by discriminating those who are clearly qualified and would be the obvious choices. Both sides think wrong, both sides discriminate another group of people.

There should be a compromise that the world of Film Music and the Audience would benefit from the most. 

 

Summa summarum: I wish that every talented film composer, regardless of their sex or skin color have an opportunity to show their qualities based on their talent and their talent alone, without anyone getting discriminated by it.

 

The approach to deal with this problem is certainly debatable. But it's not possible to get more women into scoring without reducing the amount of men, that's inevitable and the amount of blockbusters is obviously not infinite. But yeah, not an easy topic.

 

18 minutes ago, HunterTech said:

Admittedly, I mainly said that because we've either risked or have outright broken the revised rules at this point, since there have absolutely been mentioned subjects that the mod team has decided is too touchy for the forum per past incidents.

I absolutely applaud that we've been able to stay at the grounds where we're still trying to hear each other out, but I wouldn't be surprised if the higher ups step in to issue a warning soon after.

Yeah I get what you're saying, this discussion escalated quickly :stick: But I don't know... I think we're fine :lol:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

If Joe Kraemer had known what he'd put in motion, he'd never have written those Tweets.

I wish Joe Kraemer was composing his new score to a major Hollywood film right now. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

I hope that's something we all can agree on. 

 

But I'd also like to see him getting high profile stuff outside of Hollywood.

 

He's been doing some good work with Big Finish and their Doctor Who audio stories.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

If Joe Kraemer had known what he'd put in motion, he'd never have written those Tweets.

I agree. Despite the interesting insight he offered on the state of film music these days, I don't think they'll help him getting new gigs. Hollywood doesn't like artists who complain on social media about not getting jobs. For his own sake, I wish he hasn't tweeted it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Looks like he didn’t understand the part where the film music has to please the director first. Yes, it’s a job that requires a lot of humility.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Thor said:

Since this topic was ressurected, I'll have to echo my own sentiments from a year ago. Not getting hired by mainstream Hollywood isn't necessarily all bad. There are a lot of exciting things happening outside Hollywood, either on the US indie scene or in other countries.

 

Or in video games, where Austin Wintory has pretty consistently done much more sophisticated work than film composers usually do (read: are allowed to do). I. e. Pathless, Journey, Abzu. 

12 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

I agree. Despite the interesting insight he offered on the state of film music these days, I don't think they'll help him getting new gigs. Hollywood doesn't like artists who complain on social media about not getting jobs. 

 

Hollywood also doesn't consider composers artists these days (lip service excluded). They are, as James Horner ruefully observed when he was still alive, just another technical category.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

48 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

I agree. Despite the interesting insight he offered on the state of film music these days, I don't think they'll help him getting new gigs. Hollywood doesn't like artists who complain on social media about not getting jobs. For his own sake, I wish he hasn't tweeted it.

 

I was referring to the JWFan discussions he created, but I agree with what you say. :lol:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

50 minutes ago, Koray Savas said:

Lorne Balfe continues to have a career, not because of Hans Zimmer, but because he does whatever producers/directors ask of him.

 

That's easier when you don't have your own voice.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Koray Savas said:

Lorne Balfe continues to have a career, not because of Hans Zimmer, but because he does whatever producers/directors ask of him.

 

Its as simple as that. The industry is a business. Hans Zimmer isn’t to blame for his sound being heard everywhere. It’s producers/directors that ask for that sound.

 

Familiarity = profitability. 

Harsh, but true. The movie industry these days prefer Balfe's music, not Kraemer's or Davis'. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 04/04/2022 at 6:27 AM, Gibster said:

I don’t think that is true. He said the first thing Cruise said to him when he was hired that he wanted retro


To get back to the topic a bit more: that's probably the official story, but even within the LLL booklet (which has that particular quote from Kraemer), you have McQ mentioning that he and Kraemer had a "philosophy of simplicity and minimalism" initially before it spiraled into what it sounds in the final product:

gcBQue9.jpg

 

Two somewhat differing accounts, where Joe says he was only given the instruction of retro at the start, while Christopher says the aim was different before it shifted for the final product. Also, there is the tweet JK liked that sort of gives credence to what the latter said about the score's production (plus what I wrote in the prior post).

So while I wouldn't use them as smoking guns, it really pushes that direction more than against.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 05/04/2022 at 5:41 AM, Edmilson said:

Precisely. This explains why people like Balfe and Jackman keep getting big movies and TV shows to score while more talented composers like Kraemer, Don Davis and Christopher Young are left fighting for scraps.

I mean, even Goldsmith was in a similar position in the early 90s. Tarantino was right, when he called the profession of movie composers a "ghetto".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, Docteur Qui said:

Coming to this thread a bit late, but I will say that as much as I love a good old fashioned traditional score with colourful orchestration etc... they're hardly appropriate for most films these days. 

 

You cite several things that are neither (that) new, nor really an explanation for the loss of significance of music composed for films.

 

Yes, digital has completely changed the technical/production side of things, but that's not really what drives these developments. The term 'content' is now routinely used for all kinds of media, and it describes a downgrade of sorts in the sense that we have become used to everything kinda looking and sounding the same. 

 

Of course there still would be countless films that would profit from 'traditional' scores (doesn't mean they must all sound like 'War Horse'). That they aren't written or even requested is mostly due to a generational change (the 'Stranger Things' phenomenon, whole lines of product are just based on slavishly recreated deja vú's - or the director's Spotify playlist) and the simple fact that the industry doesn't push for excellence beyond purely technical categories - certainly not for the musical artform.

 

That there are occasional beacons of light (last years sadly not much beyond Greenwood, Gordon and yeah, Dune) gives me hope that the state of things will eventually change. Until this happens i refuse to call bland pap and ACME-style uniformity an acceptable state of things.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It really doesn't matter if you have someone like Kraemer, Williams or any other non-Zimmer type scoring films these days because you won't be able to hear it under the slavish devotion to sound effects over music. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Guidelines.