TROS seems to have been temped with Gordy Haab's Battlefront II score

[Drew 590]

 

 

 

 

I think we now know why Williams chose not to put these on the album. Falcon Flight always seemed to be a little too different from the Williams sound and it seems that Haab's music laid the foundation for it.

 

There's also similarities with Solo. Battlefront II was seemingly composed first. Haab said he was surprised when he saw Solo in the theater because of this.

 

 

 

[Jay 37,266]

[Nick Parker 3,040]

4 minutes ago, Drew said:

Falcon Flight always seemed to be a little too different from the Williams sound

 

..........? 

[Drew 590]

1 minute ago, Nick Parker said:

 

..........? 

 

It's certainly different from the rest of the score, which had a less frantic and more melodic action style.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

3 minutes ago, Drew said:

 

It's certainly different from the rest of the score, which had a less frantic and more melodic action style.

 

Ultimately you're talking about a few seconds of similar chords and rhythms, aren't you? That's nowhere near enough to justify this claim, especially with, as many of us pointed out, the similarities and continuity of ideas from earlier scores such as ESB to this track.

[Drew 590]

Just now, Nick Parker said:

 

Ultimately you're talking about a few seconds of similar chords and rhythms, aren't you? That's nowhere near enough to justify this claim, especially when, as many of us pointed out, the similarities and continuity of ideas from earlier scores such ESB to this track.

 

Two different composers working on the same intellectual property only a few years apart just happened to have multiple instances of writing nearly identical sections of music?

[crumbs 14,287]

I'm not sure it's evidence of a temp track... after all, both Falcon Flight and Rey Training are revisions of totally different cues (and we don't know why the original versions were abandoned... I'm curious if those early versions have the same passages though).

 

But JW does review everything Gordy writes, so... who knows. Maybe something stuck in his head.

 

Ultimately Gordy is intentionally evoking Williams' Star Wars style with his music. It's no surprise there'd eventually be some overlap.

[Holko 9,491]

3 hours ago, Drew said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

um

 

 

 

 

 

[Jurassic Shark 12,008]

If TROS was temped with Haab, or even with Powell, I'd say that would be quite an insult towards JW.

[Fabulin 3,506]

.

[Jim Ware 525]

No comment on any supposed controversy, but here are the Gordy Haab session dates:

Star Wars Battlefront - January 6th, May 4th 2015 and February 22nd, June 3rd 2016.

Star Wars Battlefront II - January 30th-31st, May 3rd-4th, June 29th 2017

Star Wars Jedi Fallen Order - March 5th-6th & 26th 2019

[SilverTrumpet 638]

The Han one is interesting but not outright, the Rey's Training one is the one that stood out to me like a sore thumb....and the game and film are two years apart so BFII very clearly came first.

 

Adventure of Han being recorded in 2017 and the game releasing at the same time could just be overlap, or Haab heard it and tributed it like all his music ends up being.

[Darth Mulder 153]

Is Williams a gamer? 

[mrbellamy 6,270]

Yes

 

 

[Darth Mulder 153]

1 minute ago, mrbellamy said:

Yes

 

I know this one. I would be happy if he played this video at his concert. 

[Jurassic Shark 12,008]

27 minutes ago, Darth Mulder said:

Is Williams a gamer? 

 

We know he plays Skype with Rian.

[Drew 590]

1 hour ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

We know he plays Skype with Rian.

And Steven

6 hours ago, Holko said:

 

 

um

 

 

 

 

 

This was Haab doing his usual thing and reworking JW music and changing it. JW then took Haab’s and only changed like one note. It’s not the same kind of comparison.

[Quintus 5,399]

I know you guys prefer to play it down, but damn, listening to these samples (I'm not really interested in the direct comparisons raised), it's uncanny just how accurately Haab sounds like Williams. Like, exactly like him. 

 

In fact if some producer bod came on here and told us Haab's work was Williams, nobody on here would doubt it. You're all liars if you reckon you would be naturally alerted of a difference in a pepsi challenge! 

[Drew 590]

25 minutes ago, Quintus said:

I know you guys prefer to play it down, but damn, listening to these samples (I'm not really interested in the direct comparisons raised), it's uncanny just how accurately Haab sounds like Williams. Like, exactly like him. 

 

In fact if some producer bod came on here and told us Haab's work was Williams, nobody on here would doubt it. You're all liars if you reckon you would be naturally alerted of a difference in a pepsi challenge! 

 

Although some here think Haab's music is autopilot Williams imitation without good themes, I think his music is very impressive. We're lucky to have it.

[GerateWohl 4,321]

Just now, Drew said:

 

Although some here think Haab's music is autopilot Williams imitation without good themes, ...

Even that would be an achievement, wouldn't it?

[Taikomochi 1,136]

The second one isn’t convincing. Williams has written action cues that started that way like The Falcon. I dismiss that comparison since Haab could easily have imitated that cue.

 

The first, though... I know it’s just a short phrase, but it’s extremely similar. I don’t know how to evaluate that. Maybe Haab was using sketches of unused cues from TFA that Williams ended up reusing? Not sure.

[Drew 590]

2 minutes ago, Taikomochi said:

The second one isn’t convincing. Williams has written action cues that started that way like The Falcon. I dismiss that comparison since Haab could easily have imitated that cue.

 

The first, though... I know it’s just a short phrase, but it’s extremely similar. I don’t know how to evaluate that. Maybe Haab was using sketches of unused cues from TFA that Williams ended up reusing? Not sure.

 

Uh, the second one is Titus/300 worthy.

 

Reused alternates from TFA is also a likely possibly, especially because Abrams was familiar with what JW wrote for TFA.

[Taikomochi 1,136]

It might be 300/Titus worthy if Williams hadn’t written cues that started that way prior to Haab’s work. Just seems like a generic Williams-ism

[Quintus 5,399]

4 minutes ago, Taikomochi said:

It might be 300/Titus worthy if Williams hadn’t written cues that started that way prior to Haab’s work. Just seems like a generic Williams-ism

 

That it does. Which is why these comparisons are always a bit of a tough sell. But that last one? Suspicious. 

[TownerFan 4,983]

Haab and his team of co-composers have studied Williams' SW tropes very well so they can certainly make it sound like the perfect imitation (that's the brief they were given by the producers). They have access to score and sketches, so they can make accurate sort of transcriptions.

[SilverTrumpet 638]

The Haab sounding like Williams stuff isn't the issue. Battlefront sounding like TFA is no surprise at all.

 

When something Haab wrote in 2017 shows up in a Williams score from 2019 is when I want to get some answers. 

[Jurassic Shark 12,008]

Who cares? Haab and JW are practically one person now through osmosis.

[Drew 590]

By the Titus/300 comparison, I meant that the two excerpts are compositionally almost identical, not that it was a similar situation.

[Quintus 5,399]

1 hour ago, TownerFan said:

Haab and his team of co-composers have studied Williams' SW tropes very well so they can certainly make it sound like the perfect imitation (that's the brief they were given by the producers). They have access to score and sketches, so they can make accurate sort of transcriptions.

 

My feeling is the effectiveness of the emulation wouldn't necessarily just be limited to the Star Wars oeuvre, should something else ever be required. 

[Manakin Skywalker 4,889]

Gordy's first game project was one of LucasArt's Indiana Jones games (I can't recall the title).

[Quintus 5,399]

Basically, at this point Gordy should just be awarded the next marque Star Wars movie gig, in lieu of a then retired (from the franchise) JW. 

 

Give the chap the proper opportunity to step into them big boots. At the very least, I'd expect it to be no less effective than Gia's effort. What have Disney/we got to lose? 

[Holko 9,491]

27 minutes ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

Gordy's first game project was one of LucasArt's Indiana Jones games (I can't recall the title).

Staff of Kings. Basically just JW's Indy setpieces with the specific melodies just slightly altered.

[Tom 4,631]

I like Haab's music--he deserves bigger projects.  

 

There seems to be some sort of negative subtext to all of this. Why does it matter if TROS used his or anyone else's music as temps?  Isn't that kind of the point of a temp track?  

[Drew 590]

53 minutes ago, Tom said:

I like Haab's music--he deserves bigger projects.  

 

There seems to be some sort of negative subtext to all of this. Why does it matter if TROS used his or anyone else's music as temps?  Isn't that kind of the point of a temp track?  

 

It's fun to talk about. Plus the irony that half the people here don't like Gordy Haab's music but love "Falcon Flight" even though it seems that Haab's creative voice is all over that track.

[igger6 894]

I've long feared that the only logical explanation for JW leaving "Falcon Flight" and "The Training Course" off the album is that for some reason he had less to do with them than with the material he included.  Honestly, the more I hear "Falcon Flight," the more I hear the ESB influences to an almost distracting degree, so the less it bothers me that it might not have been as purely Williams as I wanted to believe initially.  And I always wondered if the training cue was some especially adept last-minute assistance from William Ross or someone else (maybe even Haab).  Either way, neither cue would exist or be as enjoyable without Williams' matchless themes and inventive style.

 

I literally cannot conceive of a composer of Williams' caliber listening to a Haab composition and saying, "Eureka!"  But I can easily imagine J.J. trying to quickly temp-track his rushed, high-stakes movie for a (at the time) divided and faltering mega-franchise, and settling on whatever Star Wars-sounding music he could get his hands on.  Then he gives the new cut to Williams in September or November or whatever, and Williams—old, exhausted, and probably frustrated at the general arc of tentpole film scoring over the past twenty years, and especially in this franchise he co-founded—simply thinks, "Is that how you want it?  Here you go."  That, as I say, I can imagine quite easily.

[TownerFan 4,983]

1 hour ago, Drew said:

Plus the irony that half the people here don't like Gordy Haab's music but love "Falcon Flight" even though it seems that Haab's creative voice is all over that track.

Haab’s creative voice? He was briefed to imitate Williams’s Star Wars style as closely and faithfully possible since day 1, as the music he was writing had to seamlessly merge with Williams’s cues from the films. This isn’t to diminish Gordy’s work—he’s a gifted composer and he knows how to write for orchestra, as these scores show well. But his job here was to emulate Williams’s style and voice as faithfully as he could. Hence, it’s not out of this world that he, together with his team, learned every trope to sound as Williams-y as possible to the point of sounding “more regal than the King”.

 

Also, it’s entirely possible that some of Battlefront cues ended in JJ baby’s temp score and Williams followed the template to save time (he rewrote many cues for IX up until the last minute).

[Manakin Skywalker 4,889]

I do just want to quickly add for anyone who might think that some of this music may have been recorded after TROS, Gordy uploaded these tracks to his SoundCloud account originally in 2018, and includes all of the above mentioned music. Therefore we can rule out this being a case of Gordy hearing the music early, since JW's sessions took place much later.

[Smeltington 1,436]

The apprentice has become the master!

[dylanskie 104]

"The Training Course" definitely sounds like "The Battle Unfolds," without a doubt.

[Manakin Skywalker 4,889]

It's always bothered me the way in which they temped the sequel films. For the original six films, they of course primarily used classical music accompanied sometimes by music from other films.

 

For the sequel trilogy on the other hand, as confirmed by Rian Johnson himself, about 95% of the temp music they used was John's, and mostly consisted of his Star Wars music specifically. Basically he had to keep rewriting music over and over again that he had already written years ago, without any new inspiration.

 

In fact, I've actually coined a term for this phenomenon: "Temp Incest"

 

This process typically results in physically deformed and intellectually impaired pieces of music.

[Faleel 5,326]

Yeah right, I am pretty sure the prequels had tracking from earlier scores.

 

Does this only apply to temps within the same franchise, or does it apply to same composer tracking general? Because apparently some of the LOTR temp track was from HS scores

[Manakin Skywalker 4,889]

37 minutes ago, Spider-Fal said:

Yeah right, I am pretty sure the prequels had tracking from earlier scores.

 

True, that's why I said "primarily". The temp incest wasn't nearly as prominent however in the prequels, at least not noticeably.

[crumbs 14,287]

3 minutes ago, Spider-Fal said:

Does this only apply to temps within the same franchise, or does it apply to same composer tracking general? Because apparently some of the LOTR temp track was from HS scores

 

And AUJ has some of the most shameless temp track love I've heard from a sequel (though poor Shore clearly tried to escape it).

[Nick Parker 3,040]

Another element I don't understand from the OP is the quasi-conspiratorial notion that Williams omitted the track due to shame or something of having ripped off the alleged temp. There are multiple albums he's put out over the decades where the temp track inspirations are very apparent...including Dune Sea from '77 OG. Don't see any reason for him to get sheepish all of a sudden.

 

Now that Haab's been in Lucas orchestra land for over a decade, I would be interested in hearing him write non-Williams pastiche.

[Holko 9,491]

9 hours ago, crumbs said:

And AUJ has some of the most shameless temp track love I've heard from a sequel (though poor Shore clearly tried to escape it).

At least that has the simple excuse that they're visiting the same places in the same way as in LotR, makes sense to play the Shire themes and Rivendell and so on. That Ringwraiths bit, tough...

[Fabulin 3,506]

On 12/02/2021 at 12:26 AM, Manakin Skywalker said:

In fact, I've actually coined a term for this phenomenon: "Temp Incest"

Brilliant. It has to be the second most on-point neologism I've learned this year (after "passive progressive").

[TheUlyssesian 2,473]

16 hours ago, crumbs said:

 

And AUJ has some of the most shameless temp track love I've heard from a sequel (though poor Shore clearly tried to escape it).

 

7 hours ago, Holko said:

At least that has the simple excuse that they're visiting the same places in the same way as in LotR, makes sense to play the Shire themes and Rivendell and so on. That Ringwraiths bit, tough...

Recently watched hobbit trilogy with commentary again. PJ acknowledges Shore was very frustrated on Hobbit 1 because he was constantly being asked to do re-do what he had done previously. His new Hobbit and Bilbo themes go essentially unused in the trilogy or underused. Some of the themes and concepts are also abandoned.

 

PJ said Shore was much happier scoring 2 and 3, because they presented completely new environments and contexts and characters and allowed him to write fresh again.

[Holko 9,491]

Oh, I definitely would have preferred if all the stuff in those bonus tracks got more use.

[Jay 37,266]

Shore's plan on how to score The Hobbit was perfect. PJ's decision to change so much of it to LOTR retreads was one of his worst instincts on the production 

[SilverTrumpet 638]

What was the plan? I'm very unfamiliar with the Hobbit and only saw them once.