Popular Post TheUlyssesian 2,478 Posted February 12, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted February 12, 2021 The new Bilbo theme is so beautiful and perfect. A shame it was essentially discarded. Smeltington, Cerebral Cortex, Evanus and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,359 Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 Shore had a fantastic, long-lined theme for Bilbo with many different ways to invoke it. In the final cut PJ replaced most of them with Shire Theme renditions Shore had a brilliant theme for the company as a whole that would have been used along with the Misty Mountains song melody from Plan 9. In the final cut PJ replaced most of these with rewrites that used the Plan 9 theme or something else Many other scenes originally had more unique music that eventually got replaced by re-recorded LOTR segments crumbs, Pieter Boelen and Jurassic Shark 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crlbrg 381 Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 20 minutes ago, TheUlyssesian said: The new Bilbo theme 17 minutes ago, Jay said: a fantastic, long-lined theme for Bilbo Which theme are you referring to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,359 Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 4:34-end 1:03-1:15 1:30-2:23 The whole track 0:31-0:45 TSMefford 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabulin 3,511 Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 Listening to these makes it obvious to me why Jackson used the Shire theme from LOTR instead. Evanus 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crlbrg 381 Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 Sorry @Jay, can I get track names instead? The videos are unavailable in my region. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,359 Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 Axe or Sword 4:34-end The Adventure Begins 1:03-1:15 The White Council (SE album version, NOT OST album version) 1:30-2:23 Dreaming of Bag End (the entire track is a concert arrangement of the theme) A Very Respectable Hobbit 0:31-0:45 crlbrg 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheUlyssesian 2,478 Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 1 hour ago, Fabulin said: Listening to these makes it obvious to me why Jackson used the Shire theme from LOTR instead. You don't think it is a good theme? Fabulin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Jay 37,359 Posted February 12, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted February 12, 2021 Most of these renditions are deliberately subdued iterations, as it was the beginning of the theme, starting with Bilbo in his home talking about how he doesn't want to go adventure out. As the 3 movies had gone on, the theme would have grown and grown with Bilbo's sense of adventure. You can hear an example of this in the "A Very Respectable Hobbit" iteration But instead PJ killed the theme and Shore had to use other stuff for Bilbo in the sequels I think the "Bard and Family" theme from DOS/BOFA is Shore trying to sneak it back in under a different guise DOS Thrice Welcome 2:43-2:52 BOFA Fire and Water 3:34-3:50 BOFA Gathering of the Clouds 1:07-1:16 BOFA Battle for the Mountain 3:08-3:21 / 3:56-4:12 Will, TSMefford and Hego-Damask-II 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAvengerButton 175 Posted February 13, 2021 Share Posted February 13, 2021 On 2/11/2021 at 1:34 PM, Tom said: I like Haab's music--he deserves bigger projects. There seems to be some sort of negative subtext to all of this. Why does it matter if TROS used his or anyone else's music as temps? Isn't that kind of the point of a temp track? Welcome to JWFan. If it's not Williams, it's ABSOLUTE GARBAGE. I kid, of course, but I am also taken aback by some of the weird elitist stuff I see people post regarding music on here. As for the comparisons, I think it's a fun discovery, but I'm not convinced that TROS was temped with Haab music. Oh, nad Haab definitely is a fine Star Wars composer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manakin Skywalker 4,892 Posted February 13, 2021 Share Posted February 13, 2021 21 minutes ago, TheAvengerButton said: Welcome to JWFan. If it's not Williams, it's ABSOLUTE GARBAGE. I kid, of course, but I am also taken aback by some of the weird elitist stuff I see people post regarding music on here. As for the comparisons, I think it's a fun discovery, but I'm not convinced that TROS was temped with Haab music. Oh, nad Haab definitely is a fine Star Wars composer. I completely agree with your first point, but honestly I think these comparisons are too similar to just be a mere coincidence. The editing was so hectic I wouldn't be surprised if JJ and his team just started using random material the sound team had on hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabulin 3,511 Posted February 13, 2021 Share Posted February 13, 2021 On 2/11/2021 at 5:45 AM, Drew said: I think we now know why Williams chose not to put these on the album. Falcon Flight always seemed to be a little too different from the Williams sound and it seems that Haab's music laid the foundation for it. 0:14-026 reminds me of the horn and trumpet writing in this track of TFU Just for fun with conspiracy theories, since Rey is basically embraced as a Starkiller-like character in TROS (finally!) it would make sense that Haab, who in contrast to Williams has likely studied Griskey's music, would be reminded of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpy 4,145 Posted February 15, 2021 Share Posted February 15, 2021 Let's say Abrams temped the film with these tracks from Battlefront, I doubt Williams would've stuck to it to such a degree as to almost plagiarize Haab. The more likely answer seems to be both composers are writing in a similar style, besides are any of those examples original to how Williams' has written for the series before? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthDementous 1,059 Posted February 15, 2021 Share Posted February 15, 2021 On 2/12/2021 at 10:26 AM, Manakin Skywalker said: It's always bothered me the way in which they temped the sequel films. For the original six films, they of course primarily used classical music accompanied sometimes by music from other films. For the sequel trilogy on the other hand, as confirmed by Rian Johnson himself, about 95% of the temp music they used was John's, and mostly consisted of his Star Wars music specifically. Basically he had to keep rewriting music over and over again that he had already written years ago, without any new inspiration. In fact, I've actually coined a term for this phenomenon: "Temp Incest" This process typically results in physically deformed and intellectually impaired pieces of music. Hell, the entire Sequel Trilogy is a product of creative incest. They even have technical incest in the final movie! The more I see franchises crash and burn after years of hiatus the more I realise how detrimental the approach of 'let's make a Star Wars movie' is, versus what it was originally which was just 'let's make a space fantasy movie people will enjoy'. Those seem like the same thing on the surface but they're not, the former leads to creative incest where you're taking influence from yourself, instead of going through the normal creative process of pulling from multiple sources. That isn't to say it didn't happen at all, I know that RJ and JJ were influenced by external sources, although in the case of the former I found it kind of amusing that he kept talking about going to the same creativity well as the Original Trilogy. Perhaps in hindsight that wasn't the best approach. Manakin Skywalker 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverTrumpet 638 Posted February 15, 2021 Share Posted February 15, 2021 On 2/13/2021 at 6:46 PM, Fabulin said: Just for fun with conspiracy theories, since Rey is basically embraced as a Starkiller-like character in TROS (finally!) it would make sense that Haab, who in contrast to Williams has likely studied Griskey's music, would be reminded of this. Haab and Griskey have worked together before. They both did music for The Old Republic. Fabulin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muad'Dib 1,802 Posted February 15, 2021 Share Posted February 15, 2021 On 2/11/2021 at 8:26 PM, Manakin Skywalker said: It's always bothered me the way in which they temped the sequel films. For the original six films, they of course primarily used classical music accompanied sometimes by music from other films. For the sequel trilogy on the other hand, as confirmed by Rian Johnson himself, about 95% of the temp music they used was John's, and mostly consisted of his Star Wars music specifically. Basically he had to keep rewriting music over and over again that he had already written years ago, without any new inspiration. In fact, I've actually coined a term for this phenomenon: "Temp Incest" This process typically results in physically deformed and intellectually impaired pieces of music. I'm pretty sure this has happened in the other recent films Williams have scored, Indy 4 being the prime example but other Spielberg films of the past decade seem to sometimes be guilty of this phenomenon. I have a theory that since, I believe, temp-tracks have a fee (at least in recent years, I don't think they were paid for up till the 2000's), producers now use the composer's previous works to avoid paying royalties... or something like that, my knowledge of the Hollywood business is very slim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luka 242 Posted February 17, 2021 Share Posted February 17, 2021 On 2/10/2021 at 11:45 PM, Drew said: There's also similarities with Solo. Battlefront II was seemingly composed first. Haab said he was surprised when he saw Solo in the theater because of this. Whaaaaaaat!? Are we sure Battlefront was composed before Solo!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,359 Posted February 17, 2021 Share Posted February 17, 2021 Yea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manakin Skywalker 4,892 Posted February 17, 2021 Share Posted February 17, 2021 1 hour ago, Luka said: Whaaaaaaat!? Are we sure Battlefront was composed before Solo!? Yep, plus Gordy mentioned his shock at the similarity when Solo came out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverTrumpet 638 Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 Wouldn't they have been composed around the same time since The Adventures of Han was recorded during the The Last Jedi sessions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crumbs 14,314 Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 3 minutes ago, SilverTrumpet said: Wouldn't they have been composed around the same time since The Adventures of Han was recorded during the The Last Jedi sessions? That wasn't recorded at the same time as the TLJ sessions. Those ran from December 2016 through June 2017 (or thereabouts). I think the first Solo sessions in LA (which were only demos) were late 2017/early 2018. The actual concert suite was recorded around the same time as Powell's score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverTrumpet 638 Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 34 minutes ago, crumbs said: That wasn't recorded at the same time as the TLJ sessions. Those ran from December 2016 through June 2017 (or thereabouts). I think the first Solo sessions in LA (which were only demos) were late 2017/early 2018. The actual concert suite was recorded around the same time as Powell's score. I'm pretty sure Adventures of Han was an exception to that. That was definitely recorded in LA, you can hear the difference. As to if it was recorded with Solo or not, that's what I heard but who knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crumbs 14,314 Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 15 minutes ago, SilverTrumpet said: I'm pretty sure Adventures of Han was an exception to that. That was definitely recorded in LA, you can hear the difference. As to if it was recorded with Solo or not, that's what I heard but who knows. Yep, the AOH concert suite was definitely recorded in LA. But that session was separate to an initial round of LA demos (which were purely for Powell's reference and couldn't be used in the film). Ron Howard didn't finish reshoots until October 2017, so the spotting session wouldn't have taken place until at least Nov/Dec 2017, whereas TLJ was locked months prior (around July from memory). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Laserschwert 475 Posted February 18, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted February 18, 2021 Also, there's no reason for Haab to lie about it. He has re-arranged several of Williams' character themes to be used as the hero stingers in Battlefront, and that's obviously no secret. So if Han's music in BF2 was based on Williams as well, no one would find that strange. Why single out that passage of Han's theme as his own creation if it wasn't true? Manakin Skywalker, Tiburon and Fabulin 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faleel 5,347 Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 3 hours ago, crumbs said: Yep, the AOH concert suite was definitely recorded in LA. But that session was separate to an initial round of LA demos (which were purely for Powell's reference and couldn't be used in the film). AOH also couldn't be used in the film btw (for the credits). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Falstaft 2,132 Posted February 18, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted February 18, 2021 I think the simple explanation is that all these cues were indeed temped with Haab's Battlefront scores. Obviously, Haab was riffing on Williams in the first place, so it's hardly a serious creative impropriety, just another example of Williams not inventing his ideas out of thin air. In the case of The Adventures of Han, Disney probably offered that Battlefront cue to JW to give him a sense of what sort of general heroic, rousing vibe was suitable to the film. The resulting AOH is still 100% Williams, and a brilliant piece at that. As for TROS, I suspect the moments in question were, as others have pointed out, parts of cues undergoing extensive, late-game revisions. The Haab-ian material is connective and gestural, not thematic. If I were Williams, my thought would be "well, this temp is all modeled on very specific moments of very specific Star Wars music by me already, so, in the interest of time, why shouldn't I re-incorporate it?" Manakin Skywalker, crumbs, Bofur01 and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smeltington 1,440 Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 There's no doubt in my mind that Williams was given Haab's music and he chose to use some of the ideas therein. In the TROS examples, it's nothing new, since we've all heard plenty of cases of "temp track love" in other Williams scores. And the elements of Haab's music that Williams used were just small moments. Adventures of Han is a surprise, because Williams was assigned to write the main theme for the film, and that was his main contribution to that score. Williams wrote a whole composition with plenty of significant ideas of his own, but the piece of it that came from Haab's music was integral to the Williams composition. And then by extension Haab's idea appeared throughout the score in variations by Powell. Definitely a more extensive example of musical "borrowing" than what we're used to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manakin Skywalker 4,892 Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 Maybe Lucasfilm is secretly grooming Haab to take over for Williams by sneaking in his music here and there so we all get comfortable with it. Smeltington 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bounty95 558 Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 Gordy Haab is the new William Ross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toothless 963 Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 7 minutes ago, Manakin Skywalker said: Maybe Lucasfilm is secretly grooming Haab to take over for Williams by sneaking in his music here and there so we all get comfortable with it. I’d be okay with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smeltington 1,440 Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 10 minutes ago, Bounty95 said: Gordy Haab is the new William Ross I remember when he was credited with adapting William Ross's adaptations on Chamber of Secrets. It was a credit William Ross insisted on from the beginning. It was printed really small on the inside of the booklet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post aviazn 273 Posted February 26, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted February 26, 2021 On 2/18/2021 at 11:55 AM, Falstaft said: In the case of The Adventures of Han, Disney probably offered that Battlefront cue to JW to give him a sense of what sort of general heroic, rousing vibe was suitable to the film. The resulting AOH is still 100% Williams, and a brilliant piece at that. One of the things that never fails to amaze me about Williams is his ability to hear a temp track and, where most composers would write a pale imitation of that track, JW will instead write an improved version of that temp track. With all due respect to Gordy, AOH is both more of an earworm and richer in possibilities — the different modulations it can take, the rhythmic material underneath it, etc. Same goes for, say, the final movement of Howard Hanson's second symphony. Every new motif in Adventures on Earth is clearly indebted to analogous material in the Hanson, but to my ear, Williams' rewrites are more interesting, more intricate, more full of energy and panache in the big moments — and a closer emotional match to the tone of the film in the quiet, Interlochen-esque moments. That ability to hear a piece of music and then improve upon it is maybe an underrated skill. It's easier to borrow material — a fragment of a melody, a texture — and then reuse it in a totally different context. Or, of course, to write a slightly different melody over the same chords, like everyone else in Hollywood. But to actually make a better, more refined, more harmonically and rhythmically complex version of something you've already heard is so hard to do. I think it speaks to his process — the part he's often described as sculpting, constantly iterating and making tiny tweaks until he finds something that feels inevitable. Hearing something like that Battlefront cue is almost like hearing one of his early drafts of a theme before he sculpts it into its final form. Falstaft, Joni Wiljami and Holko 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpy 4,145 Posted February 26, 2021 Share Posted February 26, 2021 I've always thought Adventures of Han was closer to Silvestri's Back to the Future theme. They both have the same triumphant, swashbuckling swagger to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew 590 Posted February 26, 2021 Author Share Posted February 26, 2021 The Back to the Future comparison makes sense because both themes have jarring chromatic key changes within the themes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bofur01 245 Posted February 27, 2021 Share Posted February 27, 2021 I think it really sounds like Silvestri's Ready Player One, too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,074 Posted February 27, 2021 Share Posted February 27, 2021 On 2/18/2021 at 6:55 PM, Falstaft said: In the case of The Adventures of Han, Disney probably offered that Battlefront cue to JW to give him a sense of what sort of general heroic, rousing vibe was suitable to the film. The resulting AOH is still 100% Williams, and a brilliant piece at that. I had the impression that JW first had ideas for a theme for Han, and then asked Lucasfilm if they could be interested in using it in the film. 14 hours ago, Drew said: The Back to the Future comparison makes sense because both themes have jarring chromatic key changes within the themes. Jarring? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerateWohl 4,365 Posted February 27, 2021 Share Posted February 27, 2021 15 hours ago, Arpy said: I've always thought Adventures of Han was closer to Silvestri's Back to the Future theme. They both have the same triumphant, swashbuckling swagger to them. Rose theme from The Last Jedi always reminded me of Silvestri's Back To The Future theme. Melodically. Ok. First 3 notes of Rose's are going up A-D-C and Future's first 3 notes have this A - low D - G# figure. But apart from that the structures have a lot of similarities. To me at least. Falstaft 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverTrumpet 638 Posted February 27, 2021 Share Posted February 27, 2021 1 hour ago, GerateWohl said: Rose theme from The Last Jedi always reminded me of Silvestri's Back To The Future theme. Melodically. I agree. It's especially obvious during it's big statement during the Fathier part. Falstaft 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ymenard 54 Posted February 27, 2021 Share Posted February 27, 2021 On 2/15/2021 at 9:47 AM, Muad'Dib said: I'm pretty sure this has happened in the other recent films Williams have scored, Indy 4 being the prime example but other Spielberg films of the past decade seem to sometimes be guilty of this phenomenon. I have a theory that since, I believe, temp-tracks have a fee (at least in recent years, I don't think they were paid for up till the 2000's), producers now use the composer's previous works to avoid paying royalties... or something like that, my knowledge of the Hollywood business is very slim. Spielberg has handicapped Williams quite often with his desires and temp-tracks. Hook (Grusin's Mountain Dance, Agnes of God from Georges Delerue), Jurassic Park (Doyle "The Death of Falstaff"). But it's only when he wants something absolutely specific. There's a difference between JW's influence (ex: Hanson/E.T. ) and clear temp-tracks like those above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falstaft 2,132 Posted February 27, 2021 Share Posted February 27, 2021 2 hours ago, ymenard said: Spielberg has handicapped Williams quite often with his desires and temp-tracks. Hook (Grusin's Mountain Dance, Agnes of God from Georges Delerue), Jurassic Park (Doyle "The Death of Falstaff"). But it's only when he wants something absolutely specific. Hmm, I've never made that connection with the Henry V score, though it is blindingly clear to me now. But I'd hardly say the JP cue is a downgrade on the Doyle, quite the opposite! The Grusin ripoff I'm with you on, as fun as the cue it is. Though for the Delerue/Face of Pan, that's a piece that completely transcends its temp track after about 15 seconds, no? And I love Delerue and the Agnes score in particular. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not Mr. Big 4,639 Posted February 28, 2021 Share Posted February 28, 2021 On 2/27/2021 at 7:54 AM, GerateWohl said: Rose theme from The Last Jedi always reminded me of Silvestri's Back To The Future theme. Melodically. Ok. First 3 notes of Rose's are going up A-D-C and Future's first 3 notes have this A - low D - G# figure. But apart from that the structures have a lot of similarities. To me at least. Rose's Theme sounds like a Simpsons theme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabulin 3,511 Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 On 2/11/2021 at 8:17 PM, Quintus said: Basically, at this point Gordy should just be awarded the next marque Star Wars movie gig, in lieu of a then retired (from the franchise) JW. Give the chap the proper opportunity to step into them big boots. At the very least, I'd expect it to be no less effective than Gia's effort. What have Disney/we got to lose? Especially since he is clearly interested. Not Mr. Big and Holko 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintus 5,399 Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 They should give him a shot, he's earned it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverTrumpet 638 Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 I'd be down for him to get a bigger project. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrbellamy 6,286 Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 Kenobi may end up being too high profile for him to get it but it is way overdue to just give the guy a show and see how he does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artguy360 1,843 Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 Does the Kenobi show mean Obiwan is about to get a new theme? A non-JW, non-Force theme? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintus 5,399 Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 Hopefully something with an accordion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manakin Skywalker 4,892 Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 I just hope they're not getting Ludwig to score every show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bounty95 558 Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 5 minutes ago, Manakin Skywalker said: I just hope they're not getting Ludwig to score every show. If I there's dubstep in the Kenobi show I'll cancel my D+ subscription. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAvengerButton 175 Posted March 3, 2021 Share Posted March 3, 2021 You know, I don't usually like the more modern synthetic meets live orchestra stuff but Ludwig's music for The Mandalorian has made me change my mind about it. That stuff he composed for the Dark Troopers hits so good. As for Gordy scoring Obi, I don't know. I kinda like the idea of the TV show scores being more eclectic and less traditional. That's a NEW tradition that goes back to Kiner's Clone Wars scores. I'd say let him in on one of the big movies instead of on TV. But who knows, if he ever does score a series he may end up putting his own spin on it as opposed to the usual stuff he does. The Illustrious Jerry 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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