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TROS seems to have been temped with Gordy Haab's Battlefront II score


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It's always bothered me the way in which they temped the sequel films. For the original six films, they of course primarily used classical music accompanied sometimes by music from other films.  

I think we now know why Williams chose not to put these on the album. Falcon Flight always seemed to be a little too different from the Williams sound and it seems that Haab's music laid the foundatio

Shore had a fantastic, long-lined theme for Bilbo with many different ways to invoke it.  In the final cut PJ replaced most of them with Shire Theme renditions

 

Shore had a brilliant theme for the company as a whole that would have been used along with the Misty Mountains song melody from Plan 9.  In the final cut PJ replaced most of these with rewrites that used the Plan 9 theme or something else

 

Many other scenes originally had more unique music that eventually got replaced by re-recorded LOTR segments

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Axe or Sword 4:34-end

The Adventure Begins 1:03-1:15

The White Council (SE album version, NOT OST album version) 1:30-2:23

Dreaming of Bag End (the entire track is a concert arrangement of the theme)

A Very Respectable Hobbit 0:31-0:45

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Most of these renditions are deliberately subdued iterations, as it was the beginning of the theme, starting with Bilbo in his home talking about how he doesn't want to go adventure out.  As the 3 movies had gone on, the theme would have grown and grown with Bilbo's sense of adventure.  You can hear an example of this in the "A Very Respectable Hobbit" iteration

 

But instead PJ killed the theme and Shore had to use other stuff for Bilbo in the sequels

 

I think the "Bard and Family" theme from DOS/BOFA is Shore trying to sneak it back in under a different guise

 

DOS Thrice Welcome 2:43-2:52

 

 

 

BOFA Fire and Water 3:34-3:50

 

 

 

BOFA Gathering of the Clouds 1:07-1:16

 

 

BOFA Battle for the Mountain 3:08-3:21 / 3:56-4:12

 

 

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On 2/11/2021 at 1:34 PM, Tom said:

I like Haab's music--he deserves bigger projects.  

 

There seems to be some sort of negative subtext to all of this. Why does it matter if TROS used his or anyone else's music as temps?  Isn't that kind of the point of a temp track?  

 

Welcome to JWFan. If it's not Williams, it's ABSOLUTE GARBAGE.

 

I kid, of course, but I am also taken aback by some of the weird elitist stuff I see people post regarding music on here.

 

As for the comparisons, I think it's a fun discovery, but I'm not convinced that TROS was temped with Haab music. Oh, nad Haab definitely is a fine Star Wars composer.

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21 minutes ago, TheAvengerButton said:

 

Welcome to JWFan. If it's not Williams, it's ABSOLUTE GARBAGE.

 

I kid, of course, but I am also taken aback by some of the weird elitist stuff I see people post regarding music on here.

 

As for the comparisons, I think it's a fun discovery, but I'm not convinced that TROS was temped with Haab music. Oh, nad Haab definitely is a fine Star Wars composer.

 

I completely agree with your first point, but honestly I think these comparisons are too similar to just be a mere coincidence.

 

The editing was so hectic I wouldn't be surprised if JJ and his team just started using random material the sound team had on hand.

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On 2/11/2021 at 5:45 AM, Drew said:

 

 

I think we now know why Williams chose not to put these on the album. Falcon Flight always seemed to be a little too different from the Williams sound and it seems that Haab's music laid the foundation for it.

 

0:14-026

 

reminds me of the horn and trumpet writing in this track of TFU

 

Just for fun with conspiracy theories, since Rey is basically embraced as a Starkiller-like character in TROS (finally!) it would make sense that Haab, who in contrast to Williams has likely studied Griskey's music, would be reminded of this.

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Let's say Abrams temped the film with these tracks from Battlefront, I doubt Williams would've stuck to it to such a degree as to almost plagiarize Haab. The more likely answer seems to be both composers are writing in a similar style, besides are any of those examples original to how Williams' has written for the series before?

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On 2/12/2021 at 10:26 AM, Manakin Skywalker said:

It's always bothered me the way in which they temped the sequel films. For the original six films, they of course primarily used classical music accompanied sometimes by music from other films.

 

For the sequel trilogy on the other hand, as confirmed by Rian Johnson himself, about 95% of the temp music they used was John's, and mostly consisted of his Star Wars music specifically. Basically he had to keep rewriting music over and over again that he had already written years ago, without any new inspiration.

 

In fact, I've actually coined a term for this phenomenon: "Temp Incest"

 

This process typically results in physically deformed and intellectually impaired pieces of music.


Hell, the entire Sequel Trilogy is a product of creative incest. They even have technical incest in the final movie!

The more I see franchises crash and burn after years of hiatus the more I realise how detrimental the approach of 'let's make a Star Wars movie' is, versus what it was originally which was just 'let's make a space fantasy movie people will enjoy'. Those seem like the same thing on the surface but they're not, the former leads to creative incest where you're taking influence from yourself, instead of going through the normal creative process of pulling from multiple sources. That isn't to say it didn't happen at all, I know that RJ and JJ were influenced by external sources, although in the case of the former I found it kind of amusing that he kept talking about going to the same creativity well as the Original Trilogy. Perhaps in hindsight that wasn't the best approach.

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On 2/13/2021 at 6:46 PM, Fabulin said:

Just for fun with conspiracy theories, since Rey is basically embraced as a Starkiller-like character in TROS (finally!) it would make sense that Haab, who in contrast to Williams has likely studied Griskey's music, would be reminded of this.

 

Haab and Griskey have worked together before. They both did music for The Old Republic. 

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On 2/11/2021 at 8:26 PM, Manakin Skywalker said:

It's always bothered me the way in which they temped the sequel films. For the original six films, they of course primarily used classical music accompanied sometimes by music from other films.

 

For the sequel trilogy on the other hand, as confirmed by Rian Johnson himself, about 95% of the temp music they used was John's, and mostly consisted of his Star Wars music specifically. Basically he had to keep rewriting music over and over again that he had already written years ago, without any new inspiration.

 

In fact, I've actually coined a term for this phenomenon: "Temp Incest"

 

This process typically results in physically deformed and intellectually impaired pieces of music.

 

I'm pretty sure this has happened in the other recent films Williams have scored, Indy 4 being the prime example but other Spielberg films of the past decade seem to sometimes be guilty of this phenomenon.

 

I have a theory that since, I believe, temp-tracks have a fee (at least in recent years, I don't think they were paid for up till the 2000's), producers now use the composer's previous works to avoid paying royalties... or something like that, my knowledge of the Hollywood business is very slim. 

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On 2/10/2021 at 11:45 PM, Drew said:

There's also similarities with Solo. Battlefront II was seemingly composed first. Haab said he was surprised when he saw Solo in the theater because of this.

 

 

 

 

Whaaaaaaat!? Are we sure Battlefront was composed before Solo!? 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, SilverTrumpet said:

Wouldn't they have been composed around the same time since The Adventures of Han was recorded during the The Last Jedi sessions?

 

That wasn't recorded at the same time as the TLJ sessions. Those ran from December 2016 through June 2017 (or thereabouts).

 

I think the first Solo sessions in LA (which were only demos) were late 2017/early 2018. The actual concert suite was recorded around the same time as Powell's score.

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34 minutes ago, crumbs said:

 

That wasn't recorded at the same time as the TLJ sessions. Those ran from December 2016 through June 2017 (or thereabouts).

 

I think the first Solo sessions in LA (which were only demos) were late 2017/early 2018. The actual concert suite was recorded around the same time as Powell's score.

 

I'm pretty sure Adventures of Han was an exception to that. That was definitely recorded in LA, you can hear the difference. As to if it was recorded with Solo or not, that's what I heard but who knows.

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15 minutes ago, SilverTrumpet said:

 

I'm pretty sure Adventures of Han was an exception to that. That was definitely recorded in LA, you can hear the difference. As to if it was recorded with Solo or not, that's what I heard but who knows.

 

Yep, the AOH concert suite was definitely recorded in LA. But that session was separate to an initial round of LA demos (which were purely for Powell's reference and couldn't be used in the film).

 

Ron Howard didn't finish reshoots until October 2017, so the spotting session wouldn't have taken place until at least Nov/Dec 2017, whereas TLJ was locked months prior (around July from memory).

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3 hours ago, crumbs said:

 

Yep, the AOH concert suite was definitely recorded in LA. But that session was separate to an initial round of LA demos (which were purely for Powell's reference and couldn't be used in the film).

 

 

AOH also couldn't be used in the film btw (for the credits).

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There's no doubt in my mind that Williams was given Haab's music and he chose to use some of the ideas therein. In the TROS examples, it's nothing new, since we've all heard plenty of cases of "temp track love" in other Williams scores. And the elements of Haab's music that Williams used were just small moments.

 

Adventures of Han is a surprise, because Williams was assigned to write the main theme for the film, and that was his main contribution to that score. Williams wrote a whole composition with plenty of significant ideas of his own, but the piece of it that came from Haab's music was integral to the Williams composition. And then by extension Haab's idea appeared throughout the score in variations by Powell. Definitely a more extensive example of musical "borrowing" than what we're used to.

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10 minutes ago, Bounty95 said:

Gordy Haab is the new William Ross

 

I remember when he was credited with adapting William Ross's adaptations on Chamber of Secrets. It was a credit William Ross insisted on from the beginning. It was printed really small on the inside of the booklet.

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On 2/18/2021 at 6:55 PM, Falstaft said:

In the case of The Adventures of Han, Disney probably offered that Battlefront cue to JW to give him a sense of what sort of general heroic, rousing vibe was suitable to the film. The resulting AOH is still 100% Williams, and a brilliant piece at that.

 

I had the impression that JW first had ideas for a theme for Han, and then asked Lucasfilm if they could be interested in using it in the film.

 

14 hours ago, Drew said:

The Back to the Future comparison makes sense because both themes have jarring chromatic key changes within the themes.

 

Jarring?

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15 hours ago, Arpy said:

I've always thought Adventures of Han was closer to Silvestri's Back to the Future theme. They both have the same triumphant, swashbuckling swagger to them.

Rose theme from The Last Jedi always reminded me of Silvestri's Back To The Future theme. Melodically.

Ok. First 3 notes of Rose's are going up A-D-C and Future's first 3 notes have this A - low D - G# figure. But apart from that the structures have a lot of similarities. To me at least.

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On 2/15/2021 at 9:47 AM, Muad'Dib said:

 

I'm pretty sure this has happened in the other recent films Williams have scored, Indy 4 being the prime example but other Spielberg films of the past decade seem to sometimes be guilty of this phenomenon.

 

I have a theory that since, I believe, temp-tracks have a fee (at least in recent years, I don't think they were paid for up till the 2000's), producers now use the composer's previous works to avoid paying royalties... or something like that, my knowledge of the Hollywood business is very slim. 

 

Spielberg has handicapped Williams quite often with his desires and temp-tracks.

Hook (Grusin's Mountain Dance, Agnes of God from Georges Delerue), Jurassic Park (Doyle "The Death of Falstaff").  But it's only when he wants something absolutely specific.

 

There's a difference between JW's influence (ex: Hanson/E.T. ) and clear temp-tracks like those above.

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2 hours ago, ymenard said:

 

Spielberg has handicapped Williams quite often with his desires and temp-tracks.

Hook (Grusin's Mountain Dance, Agnes of God from Georges Delerue), Jurassic Park (Doyle "The Death of Falstaff").  But it's only when he wants something absolutely specific.

 

Hmm, I've never made that connection with the Henry V score, though it is blindingly clear to me now. But I'd hardly say the JP cue is a downgrade on the Doyle, quite the opposite!

 

The Grusin ripoff I'm with you on, as fun as the cue it is. Though for the Delerue/Face of Pan, that's a piece that completely transcends its temp track after about 15 seconds, no? And I love Delerue and the Agnes score in particular. 

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On 2/27/2021 at 7:54 AM, GerateWohl said:

Rose theme from The Last Jedi always reminded me of Silvestri's Back To The Future theme. Melodically.

Ok. First 3 notes of Rose's are going up A-D-C and Future's first 3 notes have this A - low D - G# figure. But apart from that the structures have a lot of similarities. To me at least.

Rose's Theme sounds like a Simpsons theme

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On 2/11/2021 at 8:17 PM, Quintus said:

Basically, at this point Gordy should just be awarded the next marque Star Wars movie gig, in lieu of a then retired (from the franchise) JW. 

 

Give the chap the proper opportunity to step into them big boots. At the very least, I'd expect it to be no less effective than Gia's effort. What have Disney/we got to lose? 

Especially since he is clearly interested.

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5 minutes ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

I just hope they're not getting Ludwig to score every show.

 

If I there's dubstep in the Kenobi show I'll cancel my D+ subscription. 

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You know, I don't usually like the more modern synthetic meets live orchestra stuff but Ludwig's music for The Mandalorian has made me change my mind about it. That stuff he composed for the Dark Troopers hits so good.

 

As for Gordy scoring Obi, I don't know. I kinda like the idea of the TV show scores being more eclectic and less traditional. That's a NEW tradition that goes back to Kiner's Clone Wars scores. I'd say let him in on one of the big movies instead of on TV. But who knows, if he ever does score a series he may end up putting his own spin on it as opposed to the usual stuff he does.

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