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Key scores in the evolution of JWs “sound”


WampaRat

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Do you think the shifts occur because he gets bored with the more straight forward thematic approach? 
 

Im sure he, like all truly gifted artists, just continually pushes himself and tinkers and toys and experiments in scores when he’s allowed. In an ideal world, it would be fascinating to hear what his “sound” would be in another 30 years.

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At the time they came out Hook and Jurassic Park appeared as pretty much Williams auto-pilot scores. So, I would never see them as special landmarks in his development. 

I guess, Star Wars and CEot3K were important. The Lost World probably,where Ludlow's Demise appeared for the first time.

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I would say that Empire of the Sun kinda previews that frenetic sound too in Streets of Shanghai

3 hours ago, BrotherSound said:

Apart from some more obvious candidates, to my ears Nixon (1995) previews a lot of the style of Williams’ scores for the next decade, particularly the more darkly-hued ones. I certainly can’t think of anything before it that sounds so much like the prequel trilogy scores, especially Revenge of the Sith. There’s even specific synthesizer sounds that would become something of a trademark I believe were introduced here, like that certain “explosion” sound that would later appear prominently in War of the Worlds (2005) and others.

Some of Black Sunday sounds like the beginning of the Coruscant Chase from AOTC IIRC.

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4 hours ago, mrbellamy said:

I think it's interesting how much of a reference point Jane Eyre has become.

 

I'm curious what the most recent development would be. It's interesting because I think there's a difference between a piece that represents a true evolution, which is subtle and hard to define, and something that became a trendsetter in his work, which is more obvious. For example, War Horse has various sensibilities which already existed but became a lot more prevalent with him after.

I hear a lot of Jane Eyre in Rey's Theme

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I was listening to Lost in Space and Time Tunnel recently and was surprised how much of the musical language of Star Wars, especially the first one, is already there. Much more than in the film scores of this time. 

 

Another key score for me is Tintin. It started the renaissance of Golden Era Williams sound in the 2010s.

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Especially from the 70s I don't know every Williams score in and out. But from what I know before Jaws and Star Wars every score, even the symphonic ones contained some 60s or 70s pop music elements. Even afterwards, like for example Supoerman and Family Plot do. But after Jaws and Star Wars Williams allowed himself more and more to write actual classic scores. Therefore, from that time on his orchestral scores became more timeless, I would say.

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I would actually say Schindler's List was a big development for Williams' sound. If nothing else, because he was convinced he didn't have what it took to compose for that film, and from what I remember, he said it took everything he had to be able to write the proper music for that film.

 

Of course it wasn't as big as his earlier scores for developing his overall style, but you can definitely hear the improvement in emotional pieces afterwards (Anakin's Betrayal and Torn Apart in particular sound like echoes of the Schindler score to me). 

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1 hour ago, GerateWohl said:

Especially from the 70s I don't know every Williams score in and out. But from what I know before Jaws and Star Wars every score, even the symphonic ones contained some 60s or 70s pop music elements. Even afterwards, like for example Supoerman and Family Plot do. But after Jaws and Star Wars Williams allowed himself more and more to write actual classic scores. Therefore, from that time on his orchestral scores became more timeless, I would say.

That is not correct. Several pre-Jaws scores have no pop music elements, e.g. None but the Brave, Images or Jane Eyre. 

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1 hour ago, Gurkensalat said:

That is not correct. Several pre-Jaws scores have no pop music elements, e.g. None but the Brave, Images or Jane Eyre. 

Yes, you are right. The Cowboys probably are worth mentioning as well. But still I would say, that Star Wars was a landmark in terms of moving towards more symphonic scores.

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Heidi is one of the first scores for me where  Johnny Williams and "serious" composer John Williams became one.

I'd also say Jaws is quite pivotal.   

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10 hours ago, superultramegaa said:

I would actually say Schindler's List was a big development for Williams' sound. If nothing else, because he was convinced he didn't have what it took to compose for that film, and from what I remember, he said it took everything he had to be able to write the proper music for that film.

 

Pure speculation on my part, but I think the warm reception of the music to the so called serious side of classical music renewed his interest in concert works, as we would be fairly quickly treated to the massive cello and bassoon concertos, along with the trumpet concerto and Tributes.  

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Very interesting suggestions. 
 

So far, based on what some people  have mentioned, our list of JWs “evolution” might look something like this:

 

Time Tunnel

Lost In Space

Heidi

Jane Eyre

Jaws

Star Wars

Close Encounters

Dracula

The Fury

E.T.

*Heartbeeps ;)

Jurassic Park

Schindler’s List

Nixon

The Lost World

Minority Report

Attack of the Clones

War Horse

Tintin

Lincoln

 

It is interesting. I think I agree with the idea that Tintin/War Horse kicked off an new development for him. The 2010s-present seems to be a decent mix of his more flashy/rythmic type of scoring from the late 90s/Early 2000s and his more straightforward thematic approach from earlier in his career. 

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8 hours ago, Tom said:

Pure speculation on my part...

Sure, the whole thread is from top to bottom pure speculation.

 

The interesting thing about Williams development as a composer is, that this development was not driven by the evolvement of his skills but just by the development of his taste and experience.

Even his early scores are very mature and he had from the beginning a marvellous foundation of musical education.

He knew almost from the start of his career how music and composition works. With this freedom and foundation he managed to never get really out of fashion and keep a high standard in everything he did.

 

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1 hour ago, GerateWohl said:

Sure, the whole thread is from top to bottom pure speculation.

 

The interesting thing about Williams development as a composer is, that this development was not driven by the evolvement of his skills but just by the development of his taste and experience.

Even his early scores are very mature and he had from the beginning a marvellous foundation of musical education.

He knew almost from the start of his career how music and composition works. With this freedom and foundation he managed to never get really out of fashion and keep a high standard in everything he did.

 

 

I think the evolution of the style of any composer is something that is up to musicologists and scholars to study, because it's something you can only do in hindsight and with a considerate amount of analytical skills.

 

For the composer him/herself, it's always a process of discovery and constant learning. Everything JW knows was earned by practice on the field. Of course, at some point of his career, he mastered his craft in such a terrific way that he was really free to explore virtually anything. Anyway, we have to remember that his film music is always a reaction to something, hence all the musical solutions he finds are, first and foremost, a consequence of his thought process about how the music can best serve the film. I don't know if he ever used any film score as a platform for personal exploration and "evolution". I think if we would ask himself he would probably say that the process is actually the contrary, i.e. he finds solutions that may push him in new directions because he's looking for the best musical translation to accompany a scene.

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30 minutes ago, TownerFan said:

 

I think the evolution of the style of any composer is something that is up to musicologists and scholars to study, because it's something you can only do in hindsight and with a considerate amount of analytical skills.

 

For the composer him/herself, it's always a process of discovery and constant learning. Everything JW knows was earned by practice on the field. Of course, at some point of his career, he mastered his craft in such a terrific way that he was really free to explore virtually anything. Anyway, we have to remember that his film music is always a reaction to something, hence all the musical solutions he finds are, first and foremost, a consequence of his thought process about how the music can best serve the film. I don't know if he ever used any film score as a platform for personal exploration and "evolution". I think if we would ask himself he would probably say that the process is actually the contrary, i.e. he finds solutions that may push him in new directions because he's looking for the best musical translation to accompany a scene.

Maybe that is more what I indended to say. The scores are not really exercises or tools or the key for the evolution but rather a reflection or a result of the development and the study that took place somewhere else.

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33 minutes ago, TownerFan said:

I think if we would ask himself he would probably say that the process is actually the contrary, i.e. he finds solutions that may push him in new directions because he's looking for the best musical translation to accompany a scene.

 

Which is an *advantage* of film composers, as they are generally forced to change, to adapt to changing styles and idioms. Though in Williams' case, he seems to resist change rather than embracing it (after his big break, at least).

 

I'd cite Born on the Fourth of July as one of those examples where he was pushed into writing in an operatic style for a realistic drama and the result was brilliant. Sadly it happened not all too often.

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15 minutes ago, publicist said:

 

Which is an *advantage* of film composers, as they are generally forced to change, to adapt to changing styles and idioms. Though in Williams' case, he seems to resist change rather than embracing it (after his big break, at least).

 

I'd cite Born on the Fourth of July as one of those examples where he was pushed into writing in an operatic style for a realistic drama and the result was brilliant. Sadly it happened not all too often.

I would disagree that Williams reists change for various reasons.

The reason why it might seem so is maybe 

  1. John Williams has a personal style. If you don't it is of course easier to adapt to something unrelated to what you did before.
  2. Even if JW adapts to a certain style of music he aims to write something original in that style. That becomes obvious when it comes to adaptation of folk music like in Geisha, Far and Away or Schinlder's List. Other composers just use some random folk melodies, Williams wirtes something that catches your ear.
  3. Thor mentioned some good examples for JW scores where he did quite a stretch in musical idioms and styles.

 

Fact is, you find a lot of composers who can write something that sounds like a certain style or they mix a certain type of music in a smart way with what they usually do, but John Williams manages to write something recognizable and original in different musical styles and families. And that is quite unique I think.

 

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12 minutes ago, publicist said:

 

Which is an *advantage* of film composers, as they are generally forced to change, to adapt to changing styles and idioms. Though in Williams' case, he seems to resist change rather than embracing it (after his big break, at least).

 

I think part of that reason is, imho, that he was often asked to stay within certain parameters and borders. Also, I think from a certain point onwards he also made a point to keep using a symphonic vernacular. He probably knows that the best he can do is writing for the orchestra. Even the scores where he used a reduced ensemble (Accidental Tourist, Stanley & Iris) or went for a more texture-oriented approach (Sleepers, JFK), he remained always symphonic at the core.

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47 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

Fact is, you find a lot of composers who can write something that sounds like a certain style or they mix a certain type of music in a smart way with what they usually do, but John Williams manages to write something recognizable and original in different musical styles and families. And that is quite unique I think.

 

To each his own, I just don't see it this way, he's just the most famous example of someone who isn't overly flexible, it's just that the end results are mostly immaculate, from a purely musical pov.

46 minutes ago, TownerFan said:

I think part of that reason is, imho, that he was often asked to stay within certain parameters and borders. Also, I think from a certain point onwards he also made a point to keep using a symphonic vernacular. 

 

My old mantra is that a symphony orchestra is Williams' musical *ego*, and in stark contrast to i. e. the early 70's, it would need some push to get him to work i. e. in a chamber style.

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45 minutes ago, publicist said:

 

To each his own, I just don't see it this way, he's just the most famous example of someone who isn't overly flexible, it's just that the end results are mostly immaculate, from a purely musical pov.

 

Might be. I prefer my view. :) I think, we should not forget, it is also a matter of what is asked from him by the producers and directors.

 

47 minutes ago, publicist said:

My old mantra is that a symphony orchestra is Williams' musical *ego*, and in stark contrast to i. e. the early 70's, it would need some push to get him to work i. e. in a chamber style.

Williams writes chamber music like the duo for violin and viola or the elegy for cello which originally was written for piano and cello. Highwood Ghost was written for a smaller ensemble. The Book Thief was to my knowledge not a big orchestra score. Angela's Ashes particularly as well.

I could imagine (of couse I don't know) but if he is asked for a project that he is actually interested in, for a chamber music like score he would do it. But I think, nobody asks for that. 

And usually when today a film has music in a chamber style it is mostly boring minimal stuff, because it is supposed to stay in the background and not to grapp the viewers attention too much. So, it is not bad, but boring on purpose. You rather get that from other cheaper composers, so why hire John Wiliams for that?

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4 hours ago, Thor said:

 

Indeed. It's all rather subjective. Personally, I can't say that I agree with most of the selections in this thread -- many of the scores listed may be classics, but not necessarily "key scores in the evolution" of his sound and career. Most of them are smack in the middle of a sound he's developped much earlier.

 

If I were to select some myself, it could be these:

 

WAGON TRAIN - first western scoring, something he would develop and expand further in the feature films. Both the Coplandesque stuff and the rural, twangy Americana. A LOT of his later scores can be traced back to the early TV westerns - everything from LINCOLN to ROSEWOOD to THE REIVERS to proper westerns like THE COWBOYS.

 

THE SECRET WAYS - first glimpse of his "serious", dramatic film music. The theme even foreshadows "Duel of the Fates" a bit. 

 

BACHELOR FLAT - first score that got him pigeonholed into the Manciniesque/jazzy/poppy comedy scores he would do all throughout the 60s.

 

HEIDI - first time we really encountered the Williams we know today, i.e. applying a neoromantic style for pretty much ALL of the score, rather than just small glimpses.

 

IMAGES - breaking radically with the above style, and showcasing - maybe for the only time - the more experimental side of Williams that had only been visible in his non-film work (like the flute concerto) up untill then. It's rather unique in his ouevre, but is still a key score for that reason.

 

JAWS - not so much a key in terms of its success or its sound, but in terms of its APPLICATION within the film, i.e. a sophisticated "play" with thematic figures, and its spotting.

 

STAR WARS - everything he's learned and developped in terms of big symphonic scoring gets together.

 

HOME ALONE - people were talking earlier about how HARRY POTTER established the "Tchaikovskyesque" stylings, but I dare to say this is what launched that particular sound.

 

SLEEPERS - Williams had flirted with 'contemporary' elements before (synth/pop), like in HEARTBEEPS or SPACE CAMP, but this - I feel - is him at the most contemporary he can be (from the 80s onwards). Brooding, with rock-infused drum kits and rhythmic figures alongside his classicalims. Hugely underrated score, and a big 'key score' in terms of a Williams trying to keep up with the times a bit.

 

A.I. - At this point, Williams moves slightly away from the big, thematic approach and does more cluster-based, minimalist, John Adams-like chord structures. There are hints of it in TPM, but this is in a whole other ballpark. It becomes the THE defining sound of his later years.

 

INDY 4 - after a 3-year break from scoring, Williams returns, and it's a very different style. More "whimsical" and scatterbrained in the rhythmic segments, with themes operating more as motifs without the broad, dynamic range that we last heard in MEMOIRS OF GEISHA or HARRY POTTER 3. This, then, becomes his go-to style up untill now. Not a sound I'm a big fan of - it sounds more like an approximation of what JW used to be - but with certain exceptions, like the wonderful WAR HORSE (perhaps closest to his earlier stylings) and THE POST (where the rhytmical figures have a more focussed identity).

 

Something like that, I suppose.

Terrific! I was hoping someone might share some older scores that would later inform his more famous works. Great list Thor!

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1 hour ago, GerateWohl said:

Might be. I prefer my view. :) I think, we should not forget, it is also a matter of what is asked from him by the producers and directors.

 

Yeah, I remember a time when Horner apologists told me the same about his cribs :P. The truth probably lies somewhere in the middle, I generally prefer more adventurous composers, though of course I love Williams, too - at least a sizeable chunk of his output. But his more conventional style doesn't often lend itself to a real favourite status.

1 hour ago, GerateWohl said:

Williams writes chamber music like the duo for violin and viola or the elegy for cello which originally was written for piano and cello. Highwood Ghost was written for a smaller ensemble. The Book Thief was to my knowledge not a big orchestra score. Angela's Ashes particularly as well.

 

I'm specifically talking about his film music mantle. And i think said scores are perfect examples where Williams will go for a lush orchestral sound, when often I have the nagging feeling that it's a decision which is not in the movie's best interest.

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On 3/23/2021 at 10:36 PM, crumbs said:

That very stripped back, elegiac writing/orchestration in Lincoln pervades his dramatic scoring in the Star Wars sequels, and the action writing seems more informed by Tintin than previous SW scores. The ST has a wildly darker tone than previous trilogies, like the Azkaban to the PS and COS that preceded it.

 

It's interesting how Galaxy's Edge and Adventures of Han feel so incongruous with the sequels; you'd never guess he wrote those pieces in the midst of the ST.

 

I really hope we get to hear JW explore this post-SW ST evolution of his style, ideally with some competent directors.

Tintin, War Horse and The BFG share stylistic elements with the Star Wars Sequel scores; maybe a sign of the specific era Williams is writing in and the relative proximity that these scores were written, but I can definitely hear some of the more reflective elegiac writing in The Rise of Skywalker more than the other two sequels. 

 

On 3/23/2021 at 2:49 AM, WampaRat said:

Do you think the shifts occur because he gets bored with the more straight forward thematic approach? 

No, it's more rational to think the shifts occurred to reflect the subject matter of the films and the change in tone from the grandeur of richly thematic scores to more reflective and subtle types which is a good thing. 

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31 minutes ago, Romão said:

I must say it's really disheartening how little love Sleepers gets in this board, of all places.

 

It's a brilliant score and a great album assembly


Absolutely! ‘Hell’s Kitchen’ is stunning, and ‘The Football Game’ is the closest thing JW ever wrote to a modern (well, 1990s and later) James Bond or Mission: Impossible type action cue.

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