How do you make a midi mockup?

[filmmusic 1,823]

edit: Please mods move this to the Other topics sub-forum. i made a mistake.

 

There have been 10 years since I composed anything.

I was wondering, how do you make a midi mockup?

 

I used to do this:

Write the score in Sibelius, export the midi file, import the midi in my DAW. And put the different sounds from the VSTs.

 

Do you feel comfortable recording it from the start at your DAW?

What about if it's in quick tempo with lots of small note values?

[ragoz350 450]

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[ChrisAfonso 186]

If you already have a score done in Sibelius, you often can get a really good result by just using Noteperformer, with almost zero effort. Of course a "real" mockup with good sample libraries can sound a good bit better (and more "3-dimensional"), but takes a lot more time and work.

 

Quote

Do you feel comfortable recording it from the start at your DAW?

 

An important consideration for me is that writing a cue in a notation program vs starting by inputting one line after the other in the DAW has a big effect on the music that comes out - it's a clumsy way to put it, but for me notation leads to more things planned out as a whole, while composing-in-DAW leads to a "one thing, then the next thing, then the next thing" approach (whether the things are counterpoint, harmony, or whatever).

 

Quote

What about if it's in quick tempo with lots of small note values?

 

If it's really too hard for my (mediocre) piano skills, I may slow it down while recording. But usually I like the imperfection that comes with real-time input (especially for things like woodwind doublings in runs), and rather break it up into multiple passes (e.g. one or two groups of 16th notes at a time - position fingers on correct keys beforehand ) if it's too much to handle in one go, plus a bit of judicious square-pushing in the piano roll afterward - usually no automatic quantization, which messes with built-in delay of different samples anyway.  

[filmmusic 1,823]

10 hours ago, ChrisAfonso said:

An important consideration for me is that writing a cue in a notation program vs starting by inputting one line after the other in the DAW has a big effect on the music that comes out - it's a clumsy way to put it, but for me notation leads to more things planned out as a whole, while composing-in-DAW leads to a "one thing, then the next thing, then the next thing" approach (whether the things are counterpoint, harmony, or whatever).

Yes, of course I agree.

I didn't mean that you start composing directly in your DAW.

I meant that when you have written your music (either by pencil and paper or in a notaion software), if you start inputting the notes in your DAW yourself.

[filmmusic 1,823]

@LSH and @Datameister I'd be interested in hearing your procedures too..

[Datameister 2,037]

These days, I always record the parts in the DAW (I use Reaper) on the MIDI keyboard. I ride the modwheel for dynamics; if I need additional CCs for volume or vibrato or what have you, I'll either record those as an overdub or draw them in manually.

 

I'm no virtuoso, so I'll often record faster passages at half- or quarter-tempo and then speed them up. Either way, the MIDI data always needs at least a little manual tweaking, in part because my system's latency is noticeable and it's thus hard to stay in lockstep with the metronome.

 

I used to occasionally import MIDI data from Finale, but in my experience, it's easier to clean up a messy but expressive human performance than it is to humanize a precise but sterile computer performance. I don't like to do that anymore.

[Jay 37,287]

2 minutes ago, Datameister said:

I'm no virtuoso, so I'll often record faster passages at half- or quarter-tempo and then speed them up.

 

Huh, that's really interesting!  Is this a common technique?

 

2 minutes ago, Datameister said:

my system's latency is noticeable and it's thus hard to stay in lockstep with the metronome.

 

Time to invest in a new rig!

 

2 minutes ago, Datameister said:

in my experience, it's easier to clean up a messy but expressive human performance than it is to humanize a precise but sterile computer performance. 

 

Preach!

[Datameister 2,037]

@Jay I'm not sure exactly how common it is to record fast stuff at a slower tempo for mockups. But for someone of my middling piano skills, it's definitely a great way to speed up the process (ironically). The passages in question are typically things I could learn to play, but I'd need to practice them for a while to get them to sound decent.

 

As for my computer, yeah, I definitely need a new sound card...I haven't pulled the trigger yet because of pandemic-induced financial uncertainty, but it'll happen sooner or later!

[filmmusic 1,823]

1 hour ago, Datameister said:

As for my computer, yeah, I definitely need a new sound card...

I don't have a soundcard on my laptop which I'll be using for making midi mockups.

I suppose I need one?

My latency is high and it confuses me when I play.

 

 

 

[Datameister 2,037]

I wish I better understood how different hardware specs affect latency. I've had a hard time finding information. With my current settings in Reaper, my latency is about 40ms. I'd love to bring that down.

[ChrisAfonso 186]

A dedicated audio interface (with a fitting ASIO driver) definitely helps a lot with latency! Other factors are the buffer size (smaller = less latency, but more CPU load and risk of drop-outs/crackling), and of course how immediate the attack of the used samples is.

[Pando 141]

ASIO interface is fast enough on a modern computer to allow real-time live playing on the keyboard (latency ~2 to 5ms).

 

I made a few mockups of JW's music, and the tracks are typically played in live in real time on the keyboard, one-by-one. Some faster parts might be sequenced if they're unplayable or precision is needed, but usually not.

 

I typically load the reference track and make a tempo map before I start recording anything, and sometimes I play an instrument against the reference track to get a correct feel and when other tracks haven't been recorded yet. Mod wheel is used for dynamics and not too much post-editing is needed. If anything needs to be changed, I usually just re-record the part until I get it right.

 

Due to the number of articulations and the size of the orchestra, it does take a long time to get good results. Too long for me to crank these out on a regular basis. The Speeder Chase track below uses something like 250 tracks and took weeks (not full time of course).

 

Enjoy!

 

 

 

 

[bored 306]

Those mockups are impressively realistic! I'm curious though, how'd you have 250 tracks on some of these? Most of the complex, realistic orchestral mockups I've seen are almost always around 50-100 tracks, sometimes less. 

[Pando 141]

1 hour ago, superultramegaa said:

Those mockups are impressively realistic! I'm curious though, how'd you have 250 tracks on some of these? Most of the complex, realistic orchestral mockups I've seen are almost always around 50-100 tracks, sometimes less. 

 

Typical orchestra is 80-100 individual players, separated to instrument groups that further play divisi (Flutes 1,2,3, Oboes 1,2,3, etc.), so that's 40-45 tracks of music right there. Each of them may have multiple articulations that I'm also separating to different tracks (I don't like using keyswitches), so before you know it, you'll have hundreds of them.

 

There are composers out there that have more than a thousand tracks in their templates, so a few hundred isn't really that much.

 

[filmmusic 1,823]

On 24/03/2021 at 5:24 PM, Datameister said:

I'll often record faster passages at half- or quarter-tempo and then speed them up.

2 years later and I have to do a couple of midi mock ups, that's why I bump this thread again.

How exactly do you do that?

I have Cubase 12. Do you know where I should look at the manual?

[michael_grig 464]

26 minutes ago, filmmusic said:

2 years later and I have to do a couple of midi mock ups, that's why I bump this thread again.

How exactly do you do that?

I have Cubase 12. Do you know where I should look at the manual?

Well the easiest way is slowing down you project tempo (the bpm) and then return to normal speed once you finished recording the midi in.

 

I also recommend using step input, you can take all the time you need and everything is quantized (which is good if you're working on the grid and not good it you're normally off the grid)

 

 

 

Retrospective Record is also very cool, it saved my improvisations a lot of times

 

[Datameister 2,037]

2 hours ago, filmmusic said:

2 years later and I have to do a couple of midi mock ups, that's why I bump this thread again.

How exactly do you do that?

I have Cubase 12. Do you know where I should look at the manual?

 

Not sure for Cubase. In Reaper, each MIDI item has a Properties dialog where you can adjust the speed. So I just record to the normal metronome, playing half tempo. Then I adjust the recording's speed to 2.

[Faleel 5,340]

57 minutes ago, Datameister said:

 

Not sure for Cubase. In Reaper, each MIDI item has a Properties dialog where you can adjust the speed. So I just record to the normal metronome, playing half tempo. Then I adjust the recording's speed to 2.

Maybe this is what you are talking about, but reaper also has where you can tell change the tempo for certain measures in the entire project.

[michael_grig 464]

@filmmusic

 

(analysis of the piece:)

 

[TolkienSS 405]

I write stuff in StaffPad. It's a fantastic tool. It has great sounding samples, it has control over MIDI dynamics and tempi, and it completely circumvents the problem of writing less intricate music in the DAW because you're in fact writing on "paper".

And it's easily exported.

 

You'll just have to get used to the fact that the different add-on libraries may have intonation issues on a few samples.