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Ben Burtt talks John Williams and usage of music in films


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50 minutes ago, crumbs said:

They don’t do it in the current Star Wars films. When they first introduced Vader in The Empire Strikes Back and you play the entire march all the way through it’s a really powerful and strong musical moment.

You mean the replacement with an edit of the concert piece? :P

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6 minutes ago, Raiders of the SoundtrArk said:

I think a lot of the music, especially on the beginning of ESB, are not featured in the movie. The Hoth's part are much more shorter if I recall correctly in the movie.

Yes, ESB has a lot of unused cues or parts of cues, often for the better.

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John Williams definitely wrote and recorded much more music for The Empire Strikes Back than he did for Star Wars

 

In the Star Wars film itself, very little of what was recorded ended up getting edited out or dropped; Most of it is used as intended

 

In the Empire Strikes Back movie though, a lot of the music that he recorded was not used; Many portions of cues were dialed down, cues were edited, portions of cues were replaced with music heard elsewhere in the film, etc

 

I never looked at the numbers to see how many minutes of music remain in each film's theatrical cut.  But I am fairly confident TESB still has more

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44 minutes ago, Holko said:

Yes, ESB has a lot of unused cues or parts of cues, often for the better.

A lot of the arguably poor decisions were reversed for the SE.

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We worked on Star Trek movie a couple of years ago. Michael Giacchino was the composer. J.J. Abrams would just change his mind and they would have to go back and write a whole new cue. It cost a fortune. It cost millions of dollars because they recorded some cues three or four times. Somebody paid for that. It wasn’t pleasant for the composer at all.

 

#ReleaseTheStarTrekDeluxeDeluxeEdition

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17 hours ago, GerateWohl said:

I was quite surprised  that Empire has less music than Star Wars. 

 

That's definitely not accurate. There is far less music in Star Wars than in Empire. 

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This is a great bit of insight from Burtt. He knows his shit. 

 

I've also never took any notice of the popular and overzealous view that reckons Ben purposely drowns out the music in order to showcase his sound effects. His words in this interview more than rubbish that stupid notion. 

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10 minutes ago, Quintus said:

 

 

I've also never took any notice of the popular and overzealous view that reckons Ben purposely drowns out the music in order to showcase his sound effects. His words in this interview more than rubbish that stupid notion. 

Right.

My meme was satirising the fans you refer.to.😁

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We worked on Star Trek movie a couple of years ago. Michael Giacchino was the composer. J.J. Abrams would just change his mind and they would have to go back and write a whole new cue. It cost a fortune. It cost millions of dollars because they recorded some cues three or four times. Somebody paid for that. It wasn’t pleasant for the composer at all.

It's a miracle Williams finished the whole sequel trilogy. He surely wanted it done by himself, but working with JJ must have been exhausting.

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Burtt has a model plane, a Nieuport fighter aircraft, dangling from the ceiling; there’s a miniature cutout of Force Awakens director J.J. Abrams standing in it, waving anachronistically from the cockpit. “Matt [Wood] put that there to torment me. I came in one day and he’s flying my plane.” 
 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/12/ben-burtt-star-wars-sound/amp

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I was always dissapointed with the new sounds of the blaster shots. The sound from the OT was so cool. I was pleased to hear that in one episode from the Mandalorian season 2 the director obviously re-used the old sound. I forgot which episode it was.

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1 hour ago, Datameister said:

I appreciate his candor in the interview. It's not the first time he's publicly expressed confusion and disappointment about Disney leaving him out, and that makes me sad. While I spend a lot more time listening to Williams music on its own than Burtt sound effects on their own, I think the two men's sonic contributions to the OT and PT are equally iconic and equally important to the success of the films. I wish I knew why only Williams was invited back.

 

Don't get me wrong, I think the sound design in the ST is perfectly serviceable. But to be frank, the only elements that stand out in my memory are Kylo's ragged saber hum and voice filtering, and BB-8's speech. (And as effective as the latter is, it was literally done with default settings on a $2 iPad app.) The OT and PT both feature huge numbers of unique and memorable sounds.

But he worked on TFA, didnt he? Or was he just a consultant?

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9 minutes ago, T.RASK said:

Ruined most of the greatest soundtracks ever made. God I  hate that noise put there above that brilliant music. Please give us those isolated scores. 

Oh I get it!

You are playing an April Fools joke on us.

You don't really think Burtt " ruined" films.

Excellent prank post!😄

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2 hours ago, T.RASK said:

Ruined most of the greatest soundtracks ever made. God I  hate that noise put there above that brilliant music. Please give us those isolated scores. 

 

Didn't even read the interview. 

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One of the biggest differences I hear – and I am talking about the big action pictures now – is that so many times the orchestra and the brass are doing some fanfares and some busy notes, all pulled down under the dialogue. You are not getting the value of the music. It was probably written when the scene was different 

 

Little does he know the god of modern film music Hansy writes away from picture and has directors who put the music in the film anyway. 

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The Empire Strikes Back allowed places for entire musical statements to be made in its entirety. You don’t see that nowadays. They don’t do it in the current Star Wars films. When they first introduced Vader in The Empire Strikes Back and you play the entire march all the way through it’s a really powerful and strong musical moment. There is no dialogue. There are some sound effects but it’s just a little concert. One thing I love about it was the way the earlier films in particular were cut to allow certain themes to be introduced clearly without conflict. That’s something we have forgotten about in our more hyperactive movie making of these days. They never stop and let something just play. Certainly not in the Star Wars films.

 

I agree with this immensely.

 

I do think Rey's introduction in the TFA captured that powerful musical moment that is allowed to breathe on scene.

 

 

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42 minutes ago, Arpy said:

Aside from the opening chimes, the first statement of her theme is marred by an obnoxious speeder sound effect in the film. That really pissed me off.

 

Yep. That whole sequence should be a musical highlight for Rey but the music barely registers in the mix. Even the wide shot of the Star Destroyer doesn't highlight the music the way it should (because we need wind and distant engine sounds to be just as prominent, obviously).

 

Such a wasted opportunity. By the time he reached TROS he didn't even bother showcasing the music. 

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How much was Williams' choice versus the editors is the question and how Abrams and any other creative on this film can tout Williams' involvement whilst simultaneously burying it under inane noises...

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I've never understood that attitude. Movies have non-musical sounds in them. In fact, out of all the sounds in most movies, the music is the least essential overall. Sound design and foley establish the reality of the scene. And dialogue is important for obvious reasons.

 

To be clear, film scores are my favorite musical genre. When it's a good score, I usually return to it far more often than I return to the film. I absolutely love it when a film makes room at the right times for the music to shine with little or no sonic competition, and I share Mr. Burtt's disappointment with how rare those moments are these days.

 

But any half-decent film composer has got to know that their job is to create something that'll sit well in the mix. Williams certainly knows it. There are a lot of crafts involved in filmmaking and they should all complement each other, not compete.

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15 hours ago, Luke Skywalker said:

But he worked on TFA, didnt he? Or was he just a consultant?


This article details it a bit. He says they told him to just stay in his room, send sounds, and they’ll figure out what to do with them. 

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/12/ben-burtt-star-wars-sound/amp

1 hour ago, Arpy said:

Fuck the reality of a scene! 

 

Music if given room to breathe like it has in the past can say much more than sound effects could, it supports the narrative, can give momentum and size to action scenes or any moment in a film. When I see something explode, I can already imagine the sounds it will make because I've heard them a bazillion times before and these days instead of being immersed in a scene through sound design, I've become quite irritated that every second of a film is filled with noise that doesn't need to be there! 

 

I like sound effects, but when they cover up the artistry of the score, they muddle the soundtrack and become tiresome.


It’s like those new 5.1 or 7.1 remixes of older films. It’s almost always the case that the sound effects are increased in volume, new ones are added, and the score is turned way down. 
 

Jaws has such an aggressive mono track. Even though the 5.1 remix has the benefit of having JW’s score in stereo, it’s so wimpy because they simply don’t know what to do with the music levels. 

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What I found interesting was Burtt's statement, that filmmakers today don't look at the film without even giving it a chance to work without sound and music by immediately putting temptracks on it. 

That is surely a mistake.

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2 hours ago, TownerFan said:

What I liked about this interview is Burtt's no-nonsense attitude and being completely frank, which is something you don't usually get from industry people. I guess he's at a point now where he can openly talk about his likes and dislikes without worrying about getting his next job. His remarks about the use of music in current movies is so true that it really shows how much of a radical change Hollywood movies and its scores have gone through the last 20 years. He's honest enought to admit that even the Prequels suffered because of some of those choices of quick editing and taking out breathing space for the music to make its statement.

 

I never thought Burtt was particulary offensive toward Williams' music in his mixing or editing. There were surely some arguments during the prequels about it (isn't there somewhere a clip with him and Ken Wannberg discussing the music volume during the dubbing of Episode 3?), but overall music is often the primary element on the soundtrack (after dialogue).

 

What made me sad after reading this piece however is the undeniable feeling that a certain way of making movies (and how to score them) is definitely a thing of the past.

 

Yep, that's a great clip: 

 

 

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What Burtt said about only having to answer to one person (George) in the past is the same story I’ve heard from other composers. John Barry said the same thing about Saltzman/Broccoli, that, love them or hate them, at the end of the day when you left their office you knew where you stood. Now you’re getting phone calls and notes from every corner. On his Spider-Man movie, Horner said he had to deal with a boardroom full of people who all had their own opinion on what the music should be. 

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