Is it possible to write the Best Film Score Of All Time in the 2020s?

[mrbellamy 6,272]

20 hours ago, gkgyver said:

PS: „Everybody likes different things“ argument is bullshit and doesn’t count. People not into Star Wars still acknowledge the mastery of the music.

 

Lol do they? The abundance of "John WIlliams ripped off ________" hot takes might beg to differ...

 

I think the real issue here is one of consensus. Which is always evolving but has become way more diffuse with social media. It's so rare to see anything get immediately canonized in this way anymore. When it does, there are always people who love to shrug it off. So I do think any attempt at an "all time" discussion obviously has to factor in staying power to begin with, at least to go beyond just trying to mount arguments for why our own favorites rule and others drool.

 

Like, after 20 years, I suppose it's safe to say The Lord of the Rings as a whole are the most recent scores to reasonably and consistently get the "all time" treatment. You could mention it alongside Gone With the Wind, Lawrence of Arabia, and Star Wars and it's not like anybody would think you were trying to make fetch happen. But of course you will still find people to shout "MEHHHH!" (and then again, it's not like even JWFan cares much about GWTW or LoA either, anyway.) So the question is, are those people willing to acknowledge that it's canonized despite their cries of indifference? Does it matter whether or not they do?

 

Alternatively....look, I actually think it's pretty interesting to look back at 2010 and realize that three scores from that year in particular seem to get a lot of mentions and used as reference points in a variety of film and music discussion circles: How to Train Your Dragon, Inception, and The Social Network.

 

The "everybody likes different things" shit cuts both ways. If people are singing a soundtrack's praises to the high heavens on one side and absolutely fuming about it on the other, after 10 years, and its influence continues to be felt, then it's gotten under people's skins like nothing else. I don't know how long it'll take to reckon with Reznor/Ross and Zimmer instead of acting like there's nothing there but those scores aren't going away. At this point, I daresay the traditionalists are only adding to their mystique.

 

Personally, I don't listen to those three scores, but I won't pretend like they haven't hit harder than just about anything to come out in the last ten years, including scores I prefer by this site's namesake during that time. In that way, if we're asking whether or not it's still possible for a score to land with acclaim and popularity and generate discussion, debate, and analysis for years and the haters can go fuck themselves, then yes, it's possible.

 

If you're asking whether or not a new score could be written for a film in the current industry that would play like gangbusters to JWFan specifically, surpassing all the things we fell in love with, breaking emotional walls and appealing to our more critical minds, gaining everyone's love or at least their begrudging respect...I doubt it?

[bruce marshall 1,314]

19 hours ago, The Big Man said:

You all suck!

I've reported you for violating FORUM RULES against personal insults!

😎

[Deacon Blues 65]

Hans Zimmer already wrote the best film score of all time with The Dark Knight. 

[bruce marshall 1,314]

16 hours ago, bruce marshall said:

HTTYD came pretty darn close.

 

Wow!

I got three ' likes'  for  this comment.

Not bad for a "troll".

😝

[HunterTech 987]

2 hours ago, Harry Irene said:

Hans Zimmer already wrote the best film score of all time with The Dark Knight. 

 

I like Zimmer, but that one isn't even my favorite of the trilogy (which itself doesn't get particularly high on my list). You can certainly make the argument that it's particularly influential in the industry (much to the chagrin of many, including HZ himself even), but I'm not entirely sure just how popular it is from what people have perceived of Hans's canon.

 

Also, while I am not one to judge one's identity (I encourage one's choice to do so even), what exactly is a "fully automated luxury space communist?" Is it like satire or something? You can tell me in private, since I guess it'd break the rules possibly (plus I'm very well aware of some words thrown at your way here, let's just say).

[Oomoog the Ecstatic 314]

There was a great thing recently... that someone like Williams could've taken advantage of to inspire a brilliant score. Game of Thrones. That show was incredible and the music could've been way better than it was.

[Jay 37,281]

3 hours ago, mrbellamy said:

 

Lol do they? The abundance of "John WIlliams ripped off ________" hot takes might beg to differ...

 

I think the real issue here is one of consensus. Which is always evolving but has become way more diffuse with social media. It's so rare to see anything get immediately canonized in this way anymore. When it does, there are always people who love to shrug it off. So I do think any attempt at an "all time" discussion obviously has to factor in staying power to begin with, at least to go beyond just trying to mount arguments for why our own favorites rule and others drool.

 

Like, after 20 years, I suppose it's safe to say The Lord of the Rings as a whole are the most recent scores to reasonably and consistently get the "all time" treatment. You could mention it alongside Gone With the Wind, Lawrence of Arabia, and Star Wars and it's not like anybody would think you were trying to make fetch happen. But of course you will still find people to shout "MEHHHH!" (and then again, it's not like even JWFan cares much about GWTW or LoA either, anyway.) So the question is, are those people willing to acknowledge that it's canonized despite their cries of indifference? Does it matter whether or not they do?

 

Alternatively....look, I actually think it's pretty interesting to look back at 2010 and realize that three scores from that year in particular seem to get a lot of mentions and used as reference points in a variety of film and music discussion circles: How to Train Your Dragon, Inception, and The Social Network.

 

The "everybody likes different things" shit cuts both ways. If people are singing a soundtrack's praises to the high heavens on one side and absolutely fuming about it on the other, after 10 years, and its influence continues to be felt, then it's gotten under people's skins like nothing else. I don't know how long it'll take to reckon with Reznor/Ross and Zimmer instead of acting like there's nothing there but those scores aren't going away. At this point, I daresay the traditionalists are only adding to their mystique.

 

Personally, I don't listen to those three scores, but I won't pretend like they haven't hit harder than just about anything to come out in the last ten years, including scores I prefer by this site's namesake during that time. In that way, if we're asking whether or not it's still possible for a score to land with acclaim and popularity and generate discussion, debate, and analysis for years and the haters can go fuck themselves, then yes, it's possible.

 

If you're asking whether or not a new score could be written for a film in the current industry that would play like gangbusters to JWFan specifically, surpassing all the things we fell in love with, breaking emotional walls and appealing to our more critical minds, gaining everyone's love or at least their begrudging respect...I doubt it?

 

Great post! 

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

This decade is a complete and total disaster 

[GerateWohl 4,326]

1 hour ago, Gruesome Son of a Bitch said:

This decade is a complete and total disaster 

And it just started. 

[JoeinAR 1,949]

There are very few competent film composers worth following these days.

 

 

[Naïve Old Fart 9,493]

Just now, JoeinAR said:

There are very few competent film composers worth following these days.

Agreed. Even those "newer" ones (Goldenthal; Howard; Elfman) are all into their sixties, now.

There are younger composers whose work I like, but I just couldn't tell you their names. I guess it's a generational thing.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

I agree. There are composers who can create a quality score but is there a Williams, Goldsmith, or Horner type quality out there. no that ship has sailed or in Horner's case hit an iceberg and sank.

[Fabulin 3,510]

17 hours ago, mrbellamy said:

cries of indifference

What a wonderful phrase 

[Quintus 5,399]

Great thread topic. 

[bruce marshall 1,314]

Emile Mosseri is a very promising talent.

Keep your ears open for him.
Dwjadi is doing great work, on tv at least.

 

Music must change. Sometimes its for the better, sometimes not.

 

Keep hope alive (just don't hope for a return to our

"golden age")

15 hours ago, Oomoog the Ecstatic said:

There was a great thing recently... that someone like Williams could've taken advantage of to inspire a brilliant score. Game of Thrones. That show was incredible and the music could've been way better than it was.

MOog, did you watch GOT?
Did you listen to the music?

[Quintus 5,399]

IMO Dwjadi is one of the worst score composers in the world. 

[Oomoog the Ecstatic 314]

12 minutes ago, bruce marshall said:

MOog, did you watch GOT?
Did you listen to the music?

 

What I'm saying is great media and partnership already tends to inspire good music (quite unfortunately for other composers .) But I seem to be alone in saying GoT is my favorite show and that if John Williams were in the beginning credits, it would absolutely blow my mind. I think I would die from viewing what would commence.

[bruce marshall 1,314]

I love it just the way it is!

[Raiders of the SoundtrArk 2,429]

1 minute ago, Quintus said:

IMO Dwjadi is one of the worst score composers in the world. 

Göransson is worst IMO

[bruce marshall 1,314]

You can always listen to the "old" stuff if you hate anything modern

[Quintus 5,399]

There's some good in modern, there are gems. But yeah, older stuff is like a treasure trove. 

[Jay 37,281]

15 minutes ago, Quintus said:

There's some good in modern, there are gems. But yeah, older stuff is like a treasure trove. 

 

Aye

 

The great music being made today is harder to find (it isn't always attached to movies you enjoy watching like it seemingly used to always be), but it's out there!

[bruce marshall 1,314]

I think its fair to say we live in a time of many good composers but few , If any, great ones.

But< you can probably say that of most eras in the arts!

[Quintus 5,399]

Maybe. The line between competent and good becoming increasingly blurred. 

[bruce marshall 1,314]

Im not qualified to judge who is "competent"

 

[Jay 37,281]

I think in terms of just people on planet Earth and the distribution of inherit talent among them, that's probably roughly the same throughout all of human history

 

The big difference is that for a long while, classic orchestral scores were "en vogue" in mainstream filmmaking, so many people went to school and studied that idiom and it shaped their composition style as they entered the work force

 

In recent years, mainstream filmmaking has favored a more sound-design type approach, so many up and comers got educated along those lines, to enter the work force able to make music the people writing the checks want.

 

So back in the day you'd go see all the big budget action/fantasy/adventure/scifi movies and they'd be pretty likely to have a score you also wanted to buy, while now a lot of those types of movies have less melodic scores and you often have to seek out the world of independent movies, TV, video games, and whatever else to find people still continuing on the style you liked from back in the day

[gkgyver 1,645]

1 hour ago, bruce marshall said:

You can always listen to the "old" stuff if you hate anything modern

 

Sure. 

And if you don't like any modern movies, you can just watch Raiders Of The Lost Ark over and over and over and over until you vomit. 

 

[Oomoog the Ecstatic 314]

In that thread 'Composers who impersonate Williams" I was surprised by a lot of Williams-like music. But we don't have many films nowadays that depend much upon showcasing its music or the director's instructions for music to tell much story, so it would be hard for them, or anyone, to find a career of the caliber of inspiration and creativity Williams had. Yeah.

 

Recently however, video games have given a lot more room to showcase their music, because it plays among the hours of background actions. But there's usually less dynamic narrative and contrast always going on to create context. It's why the melodies and textures are still pretty great though.

 

Williams music doesn't depend on the movie. We depend on a new mindset to understand it; a mindset of impressionistic fantasy, psychology, action, all in one package. Wherein lies the difference between thought and action in his music? It's all one cohesive phenomenon. In other composers like Horner, it feels like there's one smaller thing going on, like a thought or an emotion, not the bigger picture. Not something that's tying together. This is due to the role music used to have, compared to what it's become. 

 

When I hear a score like Homeward Bound 1 and 2, I still hear a very cohesive 90s narrative that is dependent on music for telling the story of actions, thoughts, and the more significant, marriage of these things. This is why people say 'the music of Williams doesn't fully sound like film music... It sounds like a story in-of-itself.'

[gkgyver 1,645]

There was a short period of time between 1980-ish and 2000-ish, where technological possibility met with golden age movie making and experience, which produced an absurd amount of all time classics. 

 

Likewise, the composers during that time embodied a perfect match of skills: still trained in the classical realm of writing serious music, while being able to draw from the established realm of film music from the Golden Age. 

 

Hans Zimmer ended that period. Yeah I'm that guy. Still, he ended it. 

 

Episode III and Return of the King, while the Zimmer craze already formed, marked the end of that forever. 

After that, blockbuster cinema consisted of Pirates, Transformers, Christopher Nolan, and Marvel, while the serious composers were pushed into niches and/or forced to dumb it down. 

 

I still maintain that collaborating with Hans Zimmer killed JNH's career. 

[Richard Penna 3,669]

Collaborating with Zimmer may have altered JNH's style, but his career has rarely been stronger.

 

His last two scores couldn't be further from the RCP-inspired thriller scores which tend to be on the dull side.

[bruce marshall 1,314]

Nobody expects the next great symphony anymore, either.

If not for the fluke of GOREKI Third Symphony the genre would be moribund.

 

In the post WWI era you had composers like Berg and Webern who didn't compose ' melodic' music.

Varese barely composed anything resembling music- it was the first example of sound design scoring.

 

All these guys were classically trained composers.

 

 

My point?

No point. 😎

 

 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Yeah but the classically trained composers know how to do atonal properly.

[Quintus 5,399]

3 hours ago, gkgyver said:

 

Sure. 

And if you don't like any modern movies, you can just watch Raiders Of The Lost Ark over and over and over and over until you vomit. 

 

 

Funnily enough I sat and watched this behind-the-scenes footage this evening (somehow for the first time) and JW's soundtrack as heard over the top of the extremely crude opening of the Ark clips towards the end still managed to make the individual shots, the editing of them together for the doc, feel utterly alive, and somehow almost just as effective as the score in the finished movie itself. I mean, shiiiiiit man, this guy was ridiculous.

 

 

 

[Koray Savas 2,251]

3 hours ago, gkgyver said:

There was a short period of time between 1980-ish and 2000-ish, where technological possibility met with golden age movie making and experience, which produced an absurd amount of all time classics. 

 

Likewise, the composers during that time embodied a perfect match of skills: still trained in the classical realm of writing serious music, while being able to draw from the established realm of film music from the Golden Age. 

 

Hans Zimmer ended that period. Yeah I'm that guy. Still, he ended it. 

 

Episode III and Return of the King, while the Zimmer craze already formed, marked the end of that forever. 

After that, blockbuster cinema consisted of Pirates, Transformers, Christopher Nolan, and Marvel, while the serious composers were pushed into niches and/or forced to dumb it down. 

 

I still maintain that collaborating with Hans Zimmer killed JNH's career. 

The time period that you claim produced an absurd amount of classics is the exact period where Zimmer flourished and became prolific.

 

And your period ends right around when 9/11 happened. The film industry absolutely changed and adapted to a post-9/11 world like everyone else. Films and their makers change as the decades pass. Pinning the blame on one composer hardly seems rational. 

[Tom 4,633]

Possible?  Of course.  Probable?  Absolutely not.  I would put it as a 1% chance and only because Williams is still active.  I think someone could surpass Williams, but not from the current group of active composers, but I suppose the decade is young.  

[bruce marshall 1,314]

1 hour ago, Koray Savas said:

The time period that you claim produced an absurd amount of classics is the exact period where Zimmer flourished and became prolific.

 

 

S

Yes#

 

 

So, to recap.

 

 

STAR WARS ushered in the era of " blockbuster cinema" and killed ' personal' filmmaking.

 

Zimmer ushered in the era of blockbuster scoring and killed of personal style in composing.

 

 

Got it!

What say you , Kory? 😝

[bored 306]

1 hour ago, Tom said:

Possible?  Of course.  Probable?  Absolutely not.  I would put it as a 1% chance and only because Williams is still active.  I think someone could surpass Williams, but not from the current group of active composers, but I suppose the decade is young.  

 

I think John Powell has the potential to surpass Williams. Will he? Probably not, no. 

[Edmilson 7,384]

I love Powell, he's great. But he is no Williams. Of course, he doesn't NEED to be the new Williams, for this is a bar too high. I'll be satisfied if he continues to be "just" one of the best composers in Hollywood from the XXI century.

[Mephariel 451]

8 hours ago, Raiders of the SoundtrArk said:

Göransson is worst IMO

 

Neither Göransson or Djawadi is anywhere close to the worst. Like what the heck is wrong with people here? The guy that wrote Creed 1 & II and Black Panther is the worst composer today? 

8 hours ago, bruce marshall said:

I think its fair to say we live in a time of many good composers but few , If any, great ones.

But< you can probably say that of most eras in the arts!

 

That is going to be true as the movie industry expands. It is like increasing the NBA roster from 400 to 800. Could you see another Lebron James or two? Sure. But more likely, you just see a lot more role players. 

1 hour ago, superultramegaa said:

 

I think John Powell has the potential to surpass Williams. Will he? Probably not, no. 

 

Zero chance. Powell isn't prolific enough to be top tier. 

[Bellosh 3,383]

Do you guys really believe a film in the future will allow for a cue like this:

 

 

I just don't see it happening, because I don't think a film and movie score will ever be this magical ever again, where everybody is captivated by it.

[bruce marshall 1,314]

" Neither Goarannson or Djawadi is anyhere close to the worst.

 

 

 

Like what the heck is wrong with people here?"....

 

 

 

 

I would answer your question but I'd probably get banned.

😎

[Mephariel 451]

8 minutes ago, Bellosh said:

Do you guys really believe a film in the future will allow for a cue like this:

 

 

I just don't see it happening, because I don't think a film and movie score will ever be this magical ever again, where everybody is captivated by it.

 

After E.T there is Jurassic Park, then The Lion King, then Titanic, then Lord of the Rings...

 

Depending on what metrics we use, a lot of scores "captivated" the audience. 

[Bellosh 3,383]

E.T. beats those all.  By far.

[Mephariel 451]

1 minute ago, Bellosh said:

E.T. beats those all.  By far.

 

Not to me. I think Jurassic Park is a better score than E.T. The point is, "magical" and "captivating" is subjective. 

[Edmilson 7,384]

So maybe for some people (and a lot of Oscar voters) Joker was "magical" and "captivating"?

[Bellosh 3,383]

12 minutes ago, Mephariel said:

Not to me. I think Jurassic Park is a better score than E.T. The point is, "magical" and "captivating" is subjective. 

 

Jurassic Park is great obviously. I just don't think it's as cohesive as E.T.  And obviously I agree with those terms being subjective.....to a point.

 

But regardless, the films you were naming are still well before the 2020s.

 

The greatest symphonies have been written, so it might be safe to assume the greatest scores have been written.

 

5 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

So maybe for some people (and a lot of Oscar voters) Joker was "magical" and "captivating"?

 

If someone thinks Joker is better than E.T. than I want to be on E.T.'s spaceship and learn how to be a botanist wherever the fuck E.T. lives and get the hell out of here.

[Oomoog the Ecstatic 314]

It is fully subjective, as there will always be someone who while fully comprehending people believe *this is that*, ie. E.T. is magical and cohesive, or the best work ever, can still not help to see things differently. They will even bring new context, like what a good film or TV series is, and the sheer importance of them in our lives to understand the role of music. 'Perspectives' aren't objective. But we still personally agree, E.T. is amazing.

 

Everyone has a different score of their favorite, so in years come, more people will start thinking new ones are better--because there will simply be more new music they can hear fresh, on their terms. 

 

Therefore, in a way, we have a problem being more open-minded to new music like the youngians are. I just don't see modern film expressing music cohesively enough, with the full room to tell a story but also supplement film. I love film, TV and video games, so I will always prefer the music of these outlets.

[Bellosh 3,383]

I agree. I'm not being completely serious either.  Obviously nobody can prove anything.  But E.T. is very close to unrivaled.

 

Can anyone imagine a scene score liked this, nowadays?

 

 

[Bellosh 3,383]

Imagine a composer nowadays being handed the reel for E.T.

 

they'd probably have no music when they fly on their bikes, and we'd just hear the pedaling of the bikes and E.T. breathing.

 

or worse, utterly forgettable.

 

the movie would be straight to Netflix and forgotten in a week.

[GerateWohl 4,326]

With film scores it is a little bit like with art painting. I mean, is painting a contemporary way of art anyway restricting the artist to a two dimensional sqare canvas when we have installations, performances, flashmops, sculptures of any kind in any material? 

But basic question, can an abstract paining, e.g. from the russian avantgarde a hundred years ago,  be a better work of art than a Michel Angelo? And if yes, can it also be more enjoyable? And is that the purpose of art, to be enjoyable?

 

I prefer scores I can enjoy. But there are good scores, which are good, because they manage to make you feel uncomfortable because it is their purpose in the movie in the first place. Best example, shower scene in psycho.

And yes, we score junkie pervs enjoy even that. But what I mean is, that people's access to a creative work happens from very many different angles. Some access a score from a classical music perspective, some from a pop music perspective, some from a pure movie perspective, some from an overall work of art perspective, some from a historical perspective and all of them have different criteria what makes a score a good score.

 

The question that I find far more interesting if in some, maybe 10 years from now we could expect some kind of renaissance of good old classical scores like it happened with Star Wars? Probably not, because all the classicaly trained film composers are retired or dead? Or do I underestimate them?