John Powell on working with John Williams for 'Solo'

[Raiders of the SoundtrArk 2,429]

15 minutes ago, Cerebral Cortex said:

Halfway through it looks like he suddenly remembers the 10 cues he needs to rewrite for the following day. 

or "Why the hell he doesn't want to shut his fu)°]k mouth"

[Muad'Dib 1,800]

7 hours ago, Alex said:

 

 

JJ: I loved your scores to Back to the Future, Legend of Zelda and Planet of the Apes! Do you think you can bring some of that sound to the table? That was great. Great stuff.

JW: (thinking) Should I tell him?

[Edmilson 7,382]

I actually feel bad for Giacchino. It must be tough to have your own childhood hero disliking your work with such intensity.

 

He did what he could to R1, but in the end, his score was shite.

[mrbellamy 6,272]

 

[Tom 4,633]

15 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

I actually feel bad for Giacchino. It must be tough to have your own childhood hero disliking your work with such intensity.

 

He did what he could to R1, but in the end, his score was shite.

True on both counts.  I find the score borderline unbelievably bad, given his actual talent.  It was never going to be a masterpiece, but some very bizarre choices were made--beginning with the opening piece.  

[Edmilson 7,382]

20 minutes ago, Tom said:

True on both counts.  I find the score borderline unbelievably bad, given his actual talent.  It was never going to be a masterpiece, but some very bizarre choices were made--beginning with the opening piece.  

There's some cues I really like on Rogue One, like Your Father would be Proud and parts of the climax, but there's some other moments that are eye-rollingly bad, like the Force theme on Trust Goes Both Ways. Overall, it's on the rock bottom among my favorite Giacchino blockbuster scores.

[TheAvengerButton 175]

I think the Rogue One soundtrack's greatest strength is its proximity to John William's older, straightforward style of orchestration. It's strengths lie in its little moments, whereas I'd listen to Solo and relish all the fun character motifs and the fast paced orchestration. Rogue One's score neatly fits into what I consider to be the OT's sound palette perfectly. I don't think Gia's themes in the film are the strongest and some of his action writing is a bit less focused and melodic than I'd like, but for the moments when the underscoring really comes together, it's fantastic.

 

The little militaristic march he wrote for the scenes on Jedha, for instance, are classic Star Wars. Krennic's theme is also very good, though I could give or take the overall theme for the Imperial faction. Jyn's theme has the trouble of almost reaching something great, but I think the harmonic content falls apart right in the middle of the main melody and brings the rest of it down.

 

So I listen to and enjoy Rogue One's soundtrack all the way through, but I think it's melodies aren't overall as strong as JP's Solo. But that's why I listen to both for different reasons.

[Datameister 2,037]

I've never found R1 to be atrocious. In my opinion, it just doesn't really play to MG's strengths. As instrumental as Star Wars was in his growing to love film scores, his compositional style is just very different. R1 is straight-up pastiche, and it's hard to write really good Williams pastiche. On paper, R1 has what you'd expect from a Star Wars score, whether you know the jargon for it or not: the chromatically planing minor chord triplets, the long-lined romantic melodies starting with upward leaps of a sixth, the militaristic i-bvi chord progressions for the baddies, etc. But it doesn't feel like Williams. There are moments I really enjoy for what they are, but I'm glad that Solo and The Mandalorian have avoided the Williams pastiche route. And of course, "Your Father Would Be Proud" is a highlight of R1, and that's pure Giacchino. I don't share the hatred for a lot of these other specific moments and themes, though.

[TJH132 48]

On 4/26/2021 at 11:25 AM, Richard Penna said:

Yeah...I don't understand where anyone is getting the idea from that JKR didn't want JW to return. That's just bizarre.

 

I thought JKR, after the first film, didn't allow WIlliams' "Children's Suite for Orchestra" on the soundtrack, or something like that.  Sounds like she was VERY involved with musical choices.

[oierem 151]

JKR not allowing Williams release the Children's Suite, or work on DH sounds messed up. But so does Williams vetoing cues from R1.

But of course, real life is complicated and real people are complicated (and we don't really "know" John Williams, or JKR, or any other famous celebrity).

Really interesting "behind-the-scenes" look, anyway. 

[Datameister 2,037]

3 hours ago, TJH132 said:

 

I thought JKR, after the first film, didn't allow WIlliams' "Children's Suite for Orchestra" on the soundtrack, or something like that.  Sounds like she was VERY involved with musical choices.

 

That doesn't sound right; four of the movements were included in the album, three of them in complete form.

 

[Holko 9,498]

I think JW wanted to release it separately alongside the OST, but JK vetoed that possibly because it was pitched to her badly - as "learn music with Harry Potter" or something, in the years when she was very protective of the brand. I can't remember a source for this so I'll be happy to be corrected.

[Jay 37,281]

Since this story was revealed by Mike during the era where he's only doing audio podcasts instead of my old typed up interviews, you'll have to listen to the whole story instead of being able to read it.

 

It's here.

[crocodile 7,982]

To be honest, all of this might be true but I bet it wasn't quite that dramatic in person. Things always seem more aggressive is someone writes it down. People care about how their work is presented and don't want others to meddle with it or misrepresent it. Perfectly understandable. I bet Giacchino was asked to quote old themes verbatim by the studio which Williams simply thought was inappropriate. I see no big controversy here really. Could JK stop anyone scoring any HP film? Sure, she did veto the release of the children suite. Maybe she finds his music not to her liking. Simple as that.

 

Karol

[Tom Guernsey 2,280]

1 hour ago, crocodile said:

To be honest, all of this might be true but I bet it wasn't quite that dramatic in person. Things always seem more aggressive is someone writes it down. People care about how their work is presented and don't want others to meddle with it or misrepresent it. Perfectly understandable. I bet Giacchino was asked to quote old themes verbatim by the studio which Williams simply thought was inappropriate. I see no big controversy here really. Could JK stop anyone scoring any HP film? Sure, she did veto the release of the children suite. Maybe she finds his music not to her liking. Simple as that.

 

Karol

On a slightly tangential note, I was chatting about David Arnold with the other half earlier (as you do) and his contribution to the third in the Narnia series (which I honestly don’t remember that well) which moved onto the first two Narnia scores by Harry Gregson-Williams. I doubt many here would be able to pick the main theme/s for those out of a lineup, but I bet a decent percentage of the general public would recognise Hedwig’s theme in half a dozen notes or less; the Harry Potter movies were blessed in getting such a memorable thematic start from having JW score the first few movies.

 

Hmmm. A David Arnold Harry Potter score. That would have been cool. 

[Edmilson 7,382]

4 hours ago, Tom Guernsey said:

Hmmm. A David Arnold Harry Potter score. That would have been cool. 

Certainly it'd be better than the Hooper scores. 

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

On 4/27/2021 at 11:18 PM, Edmilson said:

I actually feel bad for Giacchino. It must be tough to have your own childhood hero disliking your work with such intensity.

 

He did what he could to R1, but in the end, his score was shite.

And still with the tight schedule, he had to rewrite several cues because williams did not like them. Add that more stress.

 

In fact williams should be impressed that giachino has been coping with jjabrahms for countless of movies. Thats some merit, isnt it?

 

 

Btw, i love rogue one, and i would love to hear giacchinos original ontentions too.

[crumbs 14,296]

I wonder if any of the early cues were actually recorded... and if they'd ever be released. Powell actually checked with Williams about including stuff on the Solo Deluxe JW didn't want on the OST, so... 

 

Would a theoretical Rogue One expansion need JW's approval? 

[Arpy 4,145]

Williams would be upset regardless of who used his themes, it's clear he's attached to them and that's fine. I don't imagine he's upset with Gia's score, and as a composer, but the treatment of the themes. I could imagine the studio asking for Duel of the Fates at every opportunity... cos... EPIC^TM

[Jay 37,281]

I would speculate any early versions of Rogue One's cues that JW heard and asked to be changed were synth demos, and that the orchestra only recorded the revised versions

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

Well ok. Yet if he judged the synth demos...maybe he thought those were the real deal and sounded awful...

 

Anyway this score seems the best candidate for a sessions leak by the composer himself for the obvious reasons and funnily it's one of the few from giacchino not to have one.

 

But maybe its the obvious reasons after all, as it could unleash an angry williams over the world...

[Manakin Skywalker 4,889]

"I love Mikey Baby's score for Rogue One. I don't know what all these cranks on the interweb machines are going on about."

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             -John Williams

[MikeH 768]

On 4/29/2021 at 7:09 AM, Jay said:

I would speculate any early versions of Rogue One's cues that JW heard and asked to be changed were synth demos, and that the orchestra only recorded the revised versions

@ocelot might have some details on this. I can’t find the thread but a year or so ago there was a big discussion about the whole Gia/Williams Rogue One situation. 

[Jay 37,281]

3 minutes ago, MikeH said:

a year or so ago there was a big discussion about the whole Gia/Williams Rogue One situation. 

 

You mean the one I quoted in the 13th post of this thread?

 

Or a different one?

[Manakin Skywalker 4,889]

Is there even any merit to John not liking Gia's RO score, or is that again just some cranks on the internet that don't like the score personally projecting that opinion onto him?

[Jay 37,281]

Well beyond the posts I quoted on page 1, and later explained how I know the person I am quoting can be trusted, Doug Adams shared the same story on page 1, as well.

[MikeH 768]

21 minutes ago, Jay said:

 

You mean the one I quoted in the 13th post of this thread?

 

Or a different one?

Just found it.
 

 

[Jay 37,281]

On 12/31/2017 at 9:36 PM, Pieter Boelen said:

 

I'd be a little bit disappointed in John Williams as a person though if he spoke ill of fellow composers or people he worked with.

He always strikes me as a consummate professional and an excessively humble, respectful and kind person.

I massively respect him for exactly that!

 

 

On 12/13/2019 at 3:16 PM, ocelot said:

It's not that Williams has any opinion or cares about Gia's own work, he hated what he did to HIS themes. Does not want him anywhere near his themes again, is what I heard from a few people in LA, and allegedly he said that to Kennedy. 

 

 he replied 2 years later!

[Score 770]

I'm not at all surprised that JW is protective about his themes and wants them presented in his own way. We should never, ever forget THIS:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRrm59Z_0w4

 

[MikeH 768]

4 hours ago, Luke Skywalker said:

But maybe its the obvious reasons after all, as it could unleash an angry williams over the world...

 

 

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

He didnt want giacchino on his themes again... yet he still did JW 2 and is doing JW 3....

[Muad'Dib 1,800]

On his SW themes. I don't think Williams cares for JP as personally as he does for SW.

[crumbs 14,296]

Those are just silly dinosaur films  

 

Williams didn't even include the theme from TLW on his last compilation with Spielberg!

 

 

[Alex 2,833]

I wonder how MG feels about it all. You get a chance to work on a Star Wars film and work with the music of one of your heroes and he ends up hating it.

[TSMefford 1,509]

10 minutes ago, Alex said:

I wonder how MG feels about it all. You get a chance to work on a Star Wars film and work with the music of one of your heroes and he ends up hating it.

 

Dunno. He seems like a genuinely nice guy so I'm sure it would've sucked to go through something like that.

[Ollie 1,059]

You would never know from his interviews afterwards. 
 

If he was truly bummed about, he does a great job of keeping it hidden.

[Edmilson 7,382]

3 hours ago, Ollie said:

If he was truly bummed about, he does a great job of keeping it hidden.

Gia knew that a public battle with Williams and Lucasfilm would be bad for his career. He probably would never work with Disney again. So he kept his mouth shut.

 

Something similar happened with Brian Tyler. He was probably furious that Marvel and Joss Whedon hired Danny Elfman to re-score almost all of Age of Ultron, but he didn't make a scene about it. What's the point of entering a public dispute with Elfman, Whedon, Marvel, Disney, etc.? So he even took a photo side by side with Elfman during the premiere.

 

But I bet Tyler felt vindicted when Furious 7 (which he scored solo) outgrossed Ultron at the worldwide box office.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

Boy am I glad they quickly abandoned the whole “Brian Tyler, Marvel House Composer” thing.

[mstrox 6,643]

Wasn’t the story that Tyler was supposed to be free for rewrites and when they called on him, he was busy on Fast and Furious, making him persona non grata at marvel from then on?  They even replaced his Marvel logo with Giacchino’s (worse) one.

[Ollie 1,059]

I don’t get the negativity for Giacchino’s marvel logo.

 

It’s far more energetic and uplifting compared to Tyler’s , which is basically Thor The Dark World. A very loud and obnoxious score.

 

 

1 hour ago, Disco Stu said:

Boy am I glad they quickly abandoned the whole “Brian Tyler, Marvel House Composer” thing.

 

I do like his end title arrangement for Iron Man 3.  Too bad the rest of the score isn’t like that. And the Hulkbuster cue from Ultron is pretty good.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

I love the Gia fanfare, WAY better than Tyler’s

[Ollie 1,059]

1 hour ago, Edmilson said:

Gia knew that a public battle with Williams and Lucasfilm would be bad for his career. He probably would never work with Disney again. So he kept his mouth shut.

 

 

 

Given some of the criticism over RO, I’d also expect Williams to be aghast with “Reminiscence Therapy”. I know I was.

[Faleel 5,329]

11 minutes ago, Ollie said:

 

 

Given some of the criticism over RO, I’d also expect Williams to be aghast with “Reminiscence Therapy”. I know I was.

Part of Reminiscence Therapy was written by Williams though.

Also Gia Marvel Fanfare > Tyler

[HunterTech 987]

1 hour ago, mstrox said:

Wasn’t the story that Tyler was supposed to be free for rewrites and when they called on him, he was busy on Fast and Furious, making him persona non grata at marvel from then on?  They even replaced his Marvel logo with Giacchino’s (worse) one.

 

Basically. The real conflict was that Marvel specifically told him not to work on any other movie when he was doing AoU. But then Paul Walker died, and the delay of Furious 7 essentially made it to where both projects had to be worked on simultaneously. Thusly, they hired Elfman to rescore parts (before both their efforts essentially got trashed in the editing room anyway), and Tyler hasn't set foot on Disney since.

 

Now, I do recall being told that Tyler likely still ended up doing rewrites for the project, since I was told that there are parts on the OST that aren't on the leak. But whether those were before or after the conflict I'm not sure of.

[Edmilson 7,382]

46 minutes ago, HunterTech said:

Now, I do recall being told that Tyler likely still ended up doing rewrites for the project, since I was told that there are parts on the OST that aren't on the leak. But whether those were before or after the conflict I'm not sure of.

That's true. One example is the cue 6M61B Fury, which underscores the arrival of the SHIELD helicarrier to save the day during the battle of Sokovia. For this moment, Tyler wrote this cue which most people know from the OST album as Rise Together. However, the filmmakers weren't happy so they asked Tyler to basically copy and paste Silvestri's Helicarrier theme from the first Avengers (which is also on Ultron's OST). 

 

Honestly, I can't blame Tyler from walking away, specially to work in a franchise (Fast & Furious) where he is basically their John Williams. Whedon and Marvel rejected almost all of his major ideas, including his new theme for the Avengers, and they'd just keep asking him to copy Silvestri. 

[toothless 963]

10 hours ago, Disco Stu said:

Boy am I glad they quickly abandoned the whole “Brian Tyler, Marvel House Composer” thing.

 

IMO there are far worse entries in the MCU soundtracks than the efforts of Brian Tyler  

 

7 hours ago, Edmilson said:

Honestly, I can't blame Tyler from walking away, specially to work in a franchise (Fast & Furious) where he is basically their John Williams. Whedon and Marvel rejected almost all of his major ideas, including his new theme for the Avengers, and they'd just keep asking him to copy Silvestri. 

 

Agreed. They should've sticked with Silvestri in the first place… 

[Richard Penna 3,669]

I liked Tyler's Marvel fanfare way more than Gia's (assuming that's the current one). The current one is way too 'wandery' and not neat, concise and 'punchy' like a logo should be.

 

[crumbs 14,296]

16 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

I liked Tyler's Marvel fanfare way more than Gia's (assuming that's the current one). The current one is way too 'wandery' and not neat, concise and 'punchy' like a logo should be.

 

 

I always hated the awkward ending of Gia's fanfare. It just doesn't feel... complete. The final note is more of a dot-dot-dot than a full stop.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

I assume someone's done a poll before.  We seem quite polarized on this "issue" 

[Jay 37,281]

Can somebody post an embed of each logo so we can compare directly?