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Michael Kamen's X-MEN (2000) - 2021 2-CD Expanded Original Soundtrack from La-La Land Records


Jay

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Exciting project, Titus really is amazing.  Very much looking forward to spending an evening listening to it beginning to end. 

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Really exciting release. I didn't expect it to be this packed but knowing LLL love for Kamen I shouldn't be surprised. It is not perhaps his greatest moment but the score deserved better than that awful 2000 album. It is an odd early modern superhero score. Gorgeous in parts, not so special in others. But always interesting. Glad it's here. 

 

Karol

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A bit odd of them to include Land of Tolerance as a sample, since it basically is a full reprise of Death Camp. At least we can now confirm that particular track didn't have electronics originally, so it'll hopefully indicate what areas Badelt would've been apart of for the film versions.

 

40 minutes ago, Jay said:

I'm sure when this project began life, it had the older 20th Century Fox logo instead of the 20th Century Studios logo

 

Funny you say that, because the description actually lists both names for the studio! Not sure if that was intentional on their part or not.

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It's not a mistake.  The release was made in cooperation with 20th Century Studios, but the score was indeed Kamen's last for 20th Century Fox

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I enjoyed the samples.  The electronic and orchestral elements blend together very well!  Sound quality is great.  I liked the voices in the Cerebro sample, cool effect

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I guess those sound clips confirm my concerns - this is just the Kamen score as heard in the film. There is no legendary 'bombastic' or 'melodic' rejected score out there (as someone posted, that sounds like Superman). It's a gritty synth-y score that if composed by Badelt would have been even more bastarted than it originally was by fans. Simply put, Kamen's not a great theme or action composer.

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2 hours ago, Jay said:

I enjoyed the samples.  The electronic and orchestral elements blend together very well!  Sound quality is great.  I liked the voices in the Cerebro sample, cool effect

 

Yeah, they did a really good job of picking the less intrusive and more cohesive blends of the sounds. Honestly puts more into perspective which aspects of the style would've come from Kamen experimenting a bit.

 

The Cerebro voices thing is actually the one area that likely was influential, since I know it's a trick Hans Zimmer likes using in some of his superhero works. I always wondered if it was a Badelt touch, since it isn't on the album version of the track. But given its lack of presence on his promos, it possibly could've been something MK or someone else in the team came up with.

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I do find it unusual that a lot of these major works with a lot of ghostwriting - especially Kamen stuff - don't tend to acknowledge the work done by the additional composers we now know did the work. Is this a contractual thing? I know the labels would not want to discuss this as it must be total hot water, but I guess we can here?

 

Clearly Badelt had a role in this score, and maybe it was only as a synth programmer, but I doubt that. By 2000 he was co-composing Gladiator so he was not a Hans coffee boy but a major composer who would go on to take on Dreamworks' Time Machine a year later. In 2000, he was not someone who would come on to program a few Kamen synthesisers.

 

The same problems persist: Bruce Babcock did Hollywood Boulevard; Don Davis did the final swordfight in Robin Hood - are these just rumours or facts?

 

Why don't the complete releases address this?

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Legal issues, presumably. This was right around the time proper cue credits started to become the norm for major Hollywood blockbuster scoring, so it wouldn't have been particularly widespread yet. It also doesn't help that, as a user on FSM said, the film crew had run into a major setback with the film having been moved up to May from its original December date, so the post production process became severely condensed. And given Kamen would've already started being sick at this point, it's very likely he had to rely on Badelt's and others services to ensure that the whole project came out on time. Which would go to explain why things like certain cues having to be pieced together from pre-existing material happened here. It's still relatively minor compared to some productions you see today (*cough* TRoS *cough*), but it is indicative of the work environment these kinds of movies would subsequently entail.

 

I do think you are overplaying Klaus's general importance a bit, since he arguably never got that big of a career on his own. Hell, even with Pirates 1 on his resume, people were quick to find out Zimmer was the real mastermind behind that project. It doesn't help that he scored some real stinkers before deciding to abandon Hollywood (no one would be happy to admit to doing Catwoman). I can imagine the actual reality behind his hiring was that Media Ventures probably recommended him after Fox or Kamen was in need of someone who could fulfill the more techno oriented sound they were looking for.

 

Also, hasn't Kamen actually credited the 14 arrangers and orchestrators for Robin Hood? He did also share credit with Orbital on Event Horizon for an arguably similar collaboration. So I can imagine that as a result of the production going the way it did, they didn't really have time to credit KB over what were essentially sound additions that didn't change the actual compositions much. He still made it into the OST booklet for "additional electronic percussion," so it's not like he isn't acknowledged in the slightest. We'll just have to see if the LLL booklet says anything about it.

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48 minutes ago, thestat said:

I do find it unusual that a lot of these major works with a lot of ghostwriting - especially Kamen stuff - don't tend to acknowledge the work done by the additional composers we now know did the work. Is this a contractual thing? I know the labels would not want to discuss this as it must be total hot water, but I guess we can here?

 

Neil did speak about this on FSM: see here

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Given the plethora of extras, I wonder if the descriptions of most those tracks will point towards them having additions done by Badelt. I'm not sure how far legal issues can go to where you couldn't even acknowledge the final product having been tampered that much. Maybe Disney will have allowed them to fully disclose the production history on a film they essentially inherited. We'll just have to see.

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I wonder if this project was licenced before or after the Disney-Fox merger? Great news if after.

 

I'm still not sure about the timeline (no pun intended) for Time Tunnel.

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Fun fact: If Titus hadn't used all those actors' faces on the cover, this would have been approved 3 years ago already! ;)

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First review of the set from an FSM post:

 

Quote

Well, I just received the CD today and I can say that the booklet doesn't really help clarify how the CD is arranged.

 

What IS really fascinating to learn is that while the biggest challenge was the balance between electronic and orchestral elements, Kamen's revisions to the score actually led to a second round of ADDING electronic elements to some cues while REMOVING electronic elements from others to bring out more of the orchestra.

 

So it wasn't just a matter of version 1: no orchestra, version 2: add electronic elements - it was a rebalance of everything, constantly tweaking to get the ongoing balance between orchestral and electronic just right.

 

This also means there is likely not a straightforward "this is Kamen's preferred version vs. THAT version" because Kamen was constantly revising.

Which brings us to the disc arrangement - as we noted before, Disc 1 and Disc 2 both include tracks called "film versions", so it's really unclear what each disc is meant to represent.

 

I don't think I've ever actually seen the movie all the way through so hopefully somebody who knows the film well can have an easier time making sense of it.

 

Also, side note - Klaus Badelt is not mentioned anywhere except at the end as a credit for "Additional Electronic Percussion by KLAUS BADELT" along with "Sampling and Programming by JAMES BRETT and MICHAEL PRICE".

 

https://filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?forumID=1&threadID=143827&archive=0

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Neil says

 

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We had three sources of material for X-Men. Original mixes, the original soundtrack album, and an internal Fox set of CDs that corresponded to the final music stem in terms of edits and mixes. There was also unmixed 48 track digital available, but as it wasn't mixed, I only used the tape boxes for reference. They corresponded with the mixes and only named "Michael Kamen" on the original labels, much like the legal cue sheet also only names Michael Kamen as the composer.

 

Using those three sources I could compare what was intended with what was used and I devised a playlist that way. In some case the album used "ruff" [sic] mixes that differed with what was prepared for the film. In the case of "Death Camp" it's two takes, but the edit points are in different places in the film than on the album.

 

I don't remember much else about the process or specific differences. This album was prepared two years ago and a lot has happened since then.

 

Same thread

 

and now

 

Quote

Our goal was to have it out for the 20th anniversary and some artwork modifications had to be made.

 

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Sounds like they used the "original mixes" as the main element for most of the new set, then brought in whatever was on the original album or music stem that wasn't on that main element, to fill out the set and be comprehensive about what they were provided.

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My CD will be arriving today (kind of miffed someone else got it first as someone who's a local resident here lol), but it's interesting to see all this info that didn't make it into the booklet presumably.

 

The Fox CD with the film stems must've been the source of the bootleg, since Trent had mentioned it corresponding with what you heard in the movie. Which would mean one cue (3m4 Motor Bike) likely not appearing on this set as a result of what was available for them to use.

 

In a lot of ways, I do want to hear what the score would've sounded like sans any electronics, since there's moments even on the original album where it does get a bit much with the usage. However, given there are still cues that depend on the synth to form its sound, I'm sure chunks of the score would've sounded a bit empty. As such, I don't blame Bulk or Matessinio for not using anything from the 48 track master, since that would've opened a whole other can of worms there.

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4 minutes ago, HunterTech said:

The Fox CD with the film stems must've been the source of the bootleg

 

Most likely yes.  I remember the Minority Report boot actually matched an internal Fox 2CD set for that

 

4 minutes ago, HunterTech said:

Which would mean one cue (3m4 Motor Bike) likely not appearing on this set as a result of what was available for them to use.

 

What does this mean?  You think there's an original cue Kamen recorded that isn't here?  Or just that the film made up a "cue" by tracking in bits of other things?

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I wish there was more information about exactly what the differences are between all the different takes and versions. I am hoping someone gets around to doing that so I can lazily reap the benefits. This looks like it is going to be quite a chore to figure out. I will if I have to but I'm really going to have glove up.

 

Still excited as hell though. One of my favorite theater experiences as a kid. Gay or straight, it was all about Mystique.

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Well there's this

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18nD9zgwuGQRkljGVIPVjV524Tc_Q3lg71uzIo1t7BHk/

 

I'd reckon each individual listener might have their own preference about which version of each cue they prefer


I also suspect Disc 1 sounds just great as-is, and everything on Disc 2 is just a curiosity to maybe check out occasionally

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Another interesting fact from Neil:

 

Quote

X-Men was digitally recorded at 44.1 kHz/16 bit. What you have is the full resolution.

 

Same thread.

 

Fascinating fact!  In the year 2000, for a huge, big budget movie, they recorded this score at 16/44.1.  Amazing.  This is the same resolution they recorded the album-only tracks for ET in 1982 and all those 1980s Philips albums with the Boston Pops for crying out loud.

 

Not long after this in 2001 and for WB, the score to Harry Potter 1 would be edited, mixed, and mastered in 24/44.1, though they thankfully ran analog tape as well, which enabled MM to redo the entire score in 24/192 for the box set project 15 years later.  By 2002 for COS they were already editing and mixing in some higher resolution (don't know what exactly) so MM didn't have to redo everything from scratch for that one.

 

I wonder if the 16/44.1 for X-Men was a decision by the money men at Fox, or by the team Kamen hired?  I'd be interesting to find out how The Iron Giant and Frequency were recorded.

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5 hours ago, Jay said:

What does this mean?  You think there's an original cue Kamen recorded that isn't here?  Or just that the film made up a "cue" by tracking in bits of other things?


An original cue, but looking back at the comment I was referring to, there's a good chance it's not actually by Kamen (especially if it's not in the film stem source). It's on the cue sheet, so I'm not sure if it's supposed to be a track that MK wrote that never got recorded, or if it's just there to indicate a spot that's taken already by someone else.
 

2 hours ago, Jay said:

I wonder if the 16/44.1 for X-Men was a decision by the money men at Fox, or by the team Kamen hired?  I'd be interesting to find out how The Iron Giant and Frequency were recorded.


This is an odd factoid, because in the midst of currently ripping my discs, I've been checking the spectograms of the files. And "Death Camp (Film Version)" sticks out a bit, because it looks like it was re-sampled from a higher quality source compared to everything else. Like if it was taken from a different copy. I'll have to see what the rest of the film edit tracks look like before commenting more on it.

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3 hours ago, Corellian2019 said:

Now I'm wondering if there was an internal set of Fox CDs for Die Hard With A Vengeance!

 

omg - I thought exactly the same :) that'd be my holy grail.

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I received my copy a few days ago, and I am quite happy with the set. The best part being all the unaltered versions of cues that were significantly changed in the film. It gives a better idea for what Kamen wanted out of the score, as well as further cementing some of the ideas that would've been lost in the edits. Can't say it's the significantly different experience I was expecting, but I can say that it helps me understand just how much of it truly was the vision MK had in mind.

 

As for whether or not I think KB had any significant involvement in the post production work of the score: based on the only real evidence at hand (the previously mentioned website promo), I'm going to say no. A lot of the elements that are on prominent display there is, well, the electronic percussion. There's nothing to really suggest that he had any particular input on some of the more out there editing choices, especially with the cues that are included. Plus, given the fact there are MIDI synth parts that would be replaced with a live orchestra in the final score, I'm further inclined to believe that he was personally brought on by Kamen early on. It's just hard to say for sure without a contemporary comment by Badelt himself, but I think this is the best guess we'll get for the time being. He simply did the job we was assigned to do.

 

Also, love the alternate artwork on the back of the booklet. Is that present on other LLL sets?

 

 

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2 hours ago, HunterTech said:

Also, love the alternate artwork on the back of the booklet. Is that present on other LLL sets?

 

If you're talking about what I think you're talking about, Titus did something similar for Harry Potter 1.

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Intrada sometimes includes the OST cover on the flipside if the front is a new cover.

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6 hours ago, HunterTech said:

I received my copy a few days ago, and I am quite happy with the set. The best part being all the unaltered versions of cues that were significantly changed in the film. It gives a better idea for what Kamen wanted out of the score, as well as further cementing some of the ideas that would've been lost in the edits. Can't say it's the significantly different experience I was expecting, but I can say that it helps me understand just how much of it truly was the vision MK had in mind.

 

As for whether or not I think KB had any significant involvement in the post production work of the score: based on the only real evidence at hand (the previously mentioned website promo), I'm going to say no. A lot of the elements that are on prominent display there is, well, the electronic percussion. There's nothing to really suggest that he had any particular input on some of the more out there editing choices, especially with the cues that are included. Plus, given the fact there are MIDI synth parts that would be replaced with a live orchestra in the final score, I'm further inclined to believe that he was personally brought on by Kamen early on. It's just hard to say for sure without a contemporary comment by Badelt himself, but I think this is the best guess we'll get for the time being. He simply did the job we was assigned to do.

 

Also, love the alternate artwork on the back of the booklet. Is that present on other LLL sets?

 

 

Curious to hear your thoughts on the presentation and listening experience.

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9 hours ago, HunterTech said:

The best part being all the unaltered versions of cues that were significantly changed in the film. It gives a better idea for what Kamen wanted out of the score, as well as further cementing some of the ideas that would've been lost in the edits.

 

So are these versions you speak of in the main program, or on disc 2?  Or could be either depending on the cue?

 

9 hours ago, HunterTech said:

Also, love the alternate artwork on the back of the booklet. Is that present on other LLL sets?

 

All the labels have done something that from time to time I think, I dunno if any label does it more frequently than any other or not.  It's pretty rare to happen overall

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According to the FSM thread, the back cover has a typo on it

 

Disc 2, track 17 says:

17 Train (Film Version) 2:34

 

But it should say:

17 Train (Alternate Mix) 2:34

 

The version on disc 1 (just called "Train" with no parenthetical), which is an OST track, is the film version

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I can't say this is one of my favourite scores. It feels very confused about what it wants to be. Which shouldn't come as a surprise given how chaotic postproduction was. But it contains some of the most memorable music in the franchise as well. I'm not sure it makes for a nice listen but the complete presentation helps to connect some musical dots. Rogue/Logan theme is a good example. I didn't know it was a recurring melody. The electronic elements for the most part feel very Die Hard. Some of the more techno-y must be Badelt. It is a bleak and subdued score which comes recommended to Kamen fans. It is quite unique entry in the genre...but far from an easy listen.

 

The album itself looks and sounds very nice. 

 

Karol

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It's interesting to hear people describe the score as being a bit bleak and moody, as I never would've thought of it as feeling particularly out of the ordinary with other superhero scores. I suppose I can chock that up to growing up with the Zimmer Batman trilogy, which falls in a similar ballpark in areas. X2 and X3 certainly fit the classic mold more.

 

I don't know if the score has an identity crisis, moreso that it's kind of incomplete in all current forms. Specifically with cues that would've been written down on the sheets (X-Men Main Titles, Inside The Statue) being completely cobbled together in post. Who knows just what exact vision Kamen had mind when he was initially conceiving the score, but given the circumstances, I'd say it turned out quite well. Perhaps it could stand to dial it back on the techno in key areas, but I do think it's a coherent enough vision.

 

On 5/17/2021 at 5:26 AM, blondheim said:

Curious to hear your thoughts on the presentation and listening experience.

 

It's a well put presentation. Honestly, the only issues I have are down to me being too used to the bootleg in key areas, plus absolutely preferring some of the alts/album versions.

 

On 5/17/2021 at 7:54 AM, Jay said:

So are these versions you speak of in the main program, or on disc 2?  Or could be either depending on the cue?

 

Primarily main. Admittedly, some are more drastic than others, but that's a couple of spots that would've either been significantly shortened (Senate Meeting) or just full on replaced with tracked material in film (Logan Drives). There's definitely some neat extras as well, specifically with the alternate Logan and Jean cue. The original Museum Fight Pt. 1 cue was particularly surprising, since it's pretty similar to the one that shows up on the Badelt promo (only with the orchestra parts being finished here).

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Quote

Just giving you guys a heads up...we have about 100 left in stock from the first batch. If you want it now I would grab it, otherwise wait until another batch arrives sometime in July/Aug.

 

MV

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Okay, giving it some thought after going through the LLL set and KB promo a few times, I think I've nailed down every track that has Badelt's involvement from what's currently available:

X-Men Main Title (Film Construct)
Ambush (Film Edit)
Helicopter Hijack (All Versions)
Kelly In Prison / Beach
Train (Both Versions)
Xavier Falls (Film Version) [Though there's a possibility he's on the original as well.]
Museum Fight (Film Version)
Museum Fight (Continued)
Museum Fight (Part 1 Alternate)
Fight On The Head [The Statue Of Liberty] (All Versions)
Why Ask Questions / Finale / End Credits (Film Construct)

Ones that I'm unsure about:
-Bar Fight [There's a repeating chime here that sounds similar to what's on the promo version of Inside The Statue, but I imagine that's more a tracked element than something Badelt did.]
-Ambush [The album version lacks a lot of pieces that are on the promo version, so it's debatable if he has any presence on the original finished cue.]
-Cerebro [This one supposedly was listed on a website, presumably the old HZ.com music player. If I had to guess, Hybrid likely picked this track as a result of it being the closest match to the main titles.]

-Land Of Tolerance (Film Version) [The drum sounds at the start fit in well enough with the regular elements of his work here, but it's not prominent enough on the promo to be sure.]
-Inside The Statue [I have my theory that this track was never properly finished in the first place, so the one on the promo likely was an early effort by KB to assemble a full cue out of what was available. The final edit is mostly tracked, so again his involvement is debatable.]

A particular oddity:
-X-Men Titles (X-Men Logo V.3) | X-Men Logo V.1 [This original composition that was rejected features an instance at the 0:40 mark that sounds a lot like the main Kamen X theme. I hesitate to say for sure it is, since it's kind of common sort of melody in superhero scores (Elfman Spidey and even Badelt's own TMNT). So with that, I remain undecided on if it should count as part of the regular score.]

Other notes:
-There are many instances in the MK portion of the KB promo where material you'd normally hear performed by an orchestra are instead played through a MIDI keyboard, implying Badelt was working with an incomplete copy of the score. This gives credence to the notion that Klaus was brought on by Kamen itself, or was at least kept to the side by Fox early on.

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  • 2 weeks later...

There's an unboxing video online now showing off the booklet

 

 

 

I hadn't realized the back cover was another cover you could use instead if you prefer it!

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Agreed. It's honestly weird how some of the "film construct" tracks end up being among my favorites, likely thanks to nostalgia + being used to the old boot. Plus, the "Motor Bike" track works too well as a credits opener than where it apparently was originally supposed to go.

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