Star Wars Main Title vs. End Title

[Anthony 572]

These are probably the best recordings of the main title and end title suites, however they both contain duplicate material. If you were to only have one performed at a concert, which would it be?

 

 

 

 

Edit: I suppose another way to do it would be to play Main Title / Rebel Blockcade Runner but NOT go into the rest of the suite. Then do the extended Throne Room / End Title piece.

[Marian Schedenig 8,177]

End Title. Simple because I've heard the MT performed live much more often than the ET.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,507]

The version that occupies Track 1, on the 1977 O.S.T.

Imo, that's the definitive version.

[Bespin 8,480]

I can't stand the Throne Room anymore, they've played it too many times and for too many years.

 

I would love to hear re-recordings of TESB finale instead!

[j39m 75]

2 hours ago, Anthony said:

I suppose another way to do it would be to play Main Title / Rebel Blockcade Runner but NOT go into the rest of the suite.

 

When I saw the thread title, I groundlessly assumed that you meant a hypothetical performance in which the piece ends immediately after the flurry of strings amid the dissolving yellow text.

 

Then I remembered how the concert arrangement is typically arranged and performed. I personally dislike hearing the transition to the end titles; I can never escape from my impression that it sounds abrupt, like a sudden splice done live.

 

I cast a vote for the end titles only hoping that one day I'll hear a re-recording where the Throne Room bit is taken at the same speed as the film version.

[Datameister 2,037]

Neither. I want the full Battle of Hoth sequence!

[QuartalHarmony 542]

Love the idea of an ESB concert performance - it's a great piece. I love the little four-bar transition between the Imperial March and Han & Leia.

 

I disagree about the original tempo of Throne Room: in ANH OST it's far too fast - the Elgar/Walton style theme needs the slower tempo to really breathe and be enjoyed.

 

It would also be nice in the End Credits Concert Suite to have something other than Leia's theme interpolated. Just imagine an End Credits suite that concatenated Leia's theme, Imperial March, Han & Leia, Ewoks and Luke & Leia before finally segueing back to the main theme reprise to finish. Now that I'd pay good money to hear... but it would need Williams to write new transitions from Leia-to-Imperial and Han & Leia-to-Ewoks. I haven't checked, but the key changes would probably be a bit jarring too - though JW could make them sound natural, of course!

 

Mark

 

 

[Jurassic Shark 12,033]

On 5/23/2021 at 3:46 PM, j39m said:

I cast a vote for the end titles only hoping that one day I'll hear a re-recording where the Throne Room bit is taken at the same speed as the film version.

 

Your wait is over.

 

 

[TownerFan 4,983]

24 minutes ago, QuartalHarmony said:

I disagree about the original tempo of Throne Room: in ANH OST it's far too fast - the Elgar/Walton style theme needs the slower tempo to really breathe and be enjoyed.

 

Actually the scene was edited on the final movement of Dvorak's Symphony No.9 "From the New World", and Williams, according to editor Paul Hirsch, agreed to follow the temp track's tempo. He definitely went on a more Elgar-ian road, especially in the B-section, but kept the faster tempo to match the editing and the tone of the scene. Anyway, it doesn't surpirse me that he gave the piece a more regal tempo when it came to the concertized version.

[Jurassic Shark 12,033]

6 minutes ago, TownerFan said:

Actually the scene was edited on the final movement of Dvorak's Symphony No.9 "From the New World", and Williams, according to editor Paul Hirsch, agreed to follow the temp track's tempo.

 

Interesting. Is this info found in a book?

[TownerFan 4,983]

Yes, on Paul Hirsch's book A Long Time Ago in a Cutting Room Far, Far Away.

[j39m 75]

12 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Your wait is over.

 

Hats off for taking the brisker tempo. The "iris out" moment comes in barely two seconds behind the ANH score, so they came quite close.

 

12 hours ago, QuartalHarmony said:

I disagree about the original tempo of Throne Room: in ANH OST it's far too fast - the Elgar/Walton style theme needs the slower tempo to really breathe and be enjoyed.

 

Fair enough. I used to enjoy the mid-credits rendition of the Throne Room cue in the ROTS OST end title, but over time I slowly grew disenchanted with the tempo (which I found to be dragging).

 

12 hours ago, QuartalHarmony said:

but the key changes would probably be a bit jarring too

 

Has that ever stopped a key change from happening? Thinking of the sudden Leia's theme insert in the TLJ end credits 🙄

 

Veering a bit off-topic, I'm not a huge fan of how every cue immediately preceding the end title (save ANH) has to land on the same key (E flat major?) by hook or crook. IMO this was fine for 5, 6, and 2, but got a bit dodgy for 1, 3, 7, 8, and 9. Surprisingly, I get the sense that John Powell devoted the most energy into sticking the landing.

[Marian Schedenig 8,177]

Regarding tempo… (both timestamped to the beginning of the 4th movement)

 

 

 

 

 

[Datameister 2,037]

4 hours ago, j39m said:

Has that ever stopped a key change from happening? Thinking of the sudden Leia's theme insert in the TLJ end credits 

 

Veering a bit off-topic, I'm not a huge fan of how every cue immediately preceding the end title (save ANH) has to land on the same key (E flat major?) by hook or crook. IMO this was fine for 5, 6, and 2, but got a bit dodgy for 1, 3, 7, 8, and 9. Surprisingly, I get the sense that John Powell devoted the most energy into sticking the landing.

 

The segues to the end credit music are really fascinating. (Yes, Eb major, other than ANH, which is a whole step lower and orchestrated differently.) For me, the transitions are perfect in the first two films of the first two trilogies. The other 5 really drop the ball. ROTJ has had two wildly different attempts, both unsuccessful in my opinion. And then ROTS started the awkward and unpleasant tradition of using the Force theme in G minor each time. I've acclimated a bit to the modulation into Eb but I still think it's really awkward for the end of a Star Wars movie. Which is a pity, because you're going from one beautiful piece of music to another. It's just the transition that I don't like. Musically, it feels like, "Oh...I guess the movie is...over...? Surprise?" When I go to the 4, 5, 1, or 2, the transitions feel inevitable, final, and satisfying in just the right way.

 

And then there are the two anthology films. Giacchino's transition works okay for me, mostly because you know from the start that this film is just getting you to the starting place of ANH. The final iris out isn't an ending at all, really - just a cinematic representation of "ANH starts here!"

 

Apparently, the last stretch of Solo's finale cue was penned by Williams, not Powell, making it my favorite JW Star Wars end credits transition since AOTC. It closes out the movie with a nice energy and more of that "inevitability" I hear in my preferred finales.

[j39m 75]

6 minutes ago, Datameister said:

ROTJ has had two wildly different attempts, both unsuccessful in my opinion. And then ROTJ started the awkward and unpleasant tradition of using the Force theme in G minor each time.

 

Did you mean ROTS the second time round there? I agree wholeheartedly if so. I wonder what prompted that to happen — maybe somebody demanded a counterpart to the Binary Sunset cue to close out the saga (not anticipating TFA etc. of course)?

 

I will disagree gently with your assessment of ROTJ 😆 I've never heard Yub Nub proper (except in Lego Star Wars, and I'm not sure if they used the real deal) and grew up with Victory Celebration. The latter has the virtue of swinging pretty close to the target key of Eb (ending on a solid Bb). I can forgive that, especially given the nice separation between the two on the special editions.

 

I will concede TPM as well; I don't feel like it's jarring, though consciously I'm aware of the huge key shift on the iris out.

 

I will...quibble Giacchino somewhat. I consistently have to remind myself that it's publicly well-known that he was really under the gun, scheduling-wise, and the scuttlebutt I can glean from here suggests it's worse than Variety ever let on. So I respect that he delivered something decently well-received in the time he was given. However, he, too, elected to airdrop a G minor statement of the Force leitmotif, but lets it veer abruptly into something like D minor (sus 4?), and just holds that until the iris out, and then we're back in E flat. It's less jarring than ROTS to me, but I still find it frustrating to listen to.

 

17 minutes ago, Datameister said:

Apparently, the last stretch of Solo's finale cue was penned by Williams, not Powell, making it my favorite JW Star Wars end credits transition since AOTC.

 

Do you have a source for this? This would explain a bit, but it'd also bring up more questions — like, where was this seamless modulation for episodes 7, 8, and 9, eh, Towner?

[Datameister 2,037]

Sorry, yes, I meant ROTS, @j39m. Fixed! And to be clear, I have no problem at all with the Binary Sunset reference; I think it was totally the right choice for that scene. I just don't like the way it modulates into the credits, and I don't like that every subsequent episode ended with some variation of the same idea. As the first five films demonstrate, there are plenty of other ways to end a Star Wars movie.

 

ROTJ is a funny one. I enjoy some Yub Nub, but to me it definitely doesn't feel like a worthy finale to (at the time) the whole Star Wars saga. The segue with the sustained chorus is odd, but nowhere near as odd as that final Bb major chord of Victory Celebration. Did he forget that the credits don't start in Bb? Did he really intend for an uncharacteristic beat of silence before the credits, as heard on the album, or for the final chord to just be replaced by the start of the credits, as heard in the film? Strange stuff.

 

I've got no source to offer on the Solo thing. But for what it's worth, I'm convinced. 

[QuartalHarmony 542]

1 hour ago, Datameister said:

Did he forget that the credits don't start in Bb?

 

A transition from a final Bb chord to solid Eb on the iris out makes it a textbook perfect cadence!

 

If anything, it’s less hammy than transitioning from the G major ending of Yub Nub (incidentally, can we start calling it Ewok Celebration, please? “Yub nub” is just, well...) to End Credits in Eb via a pivot chord of, erm, Eb. Granted, going to bVI from I is a bit traditional in Sci Fi (Goldsmith does it a lot in various Star Treks), but Williams is normally better than that.

 

Mark

[Datameister 2,037]

7 hours ago, QuartalHarmony said:

 

A transition from a final Bb chord to solid Eb on the iris out makes it a textbook perfect cadence!

 

If anything, it’s less hammy than transitioning from the G major ending of Yub Nub (incidentally, can we start calling it Ewok Celebration, please? “Yub nub” is just, well...) to End Credits in Eb via a pivot chord of, erm, Eb. Granted, going to bVI from I is a bit traditional in Sci Fi (Goldsmith does it a lot in various Star Treks), but Williams is normally better than that.

 

Mark

 

It acts like a perfect cadence if you give it that awkward beat of rest before the credits, as heard on the album. But to me that feels all wrong as an ending to a Star Wars film. It could work if this were a movie that featured a brief cut to black before the credits. An example from just a few years before the SEs would be Toy Story. But of course, every Star Wars movie ends with the iris wipe directly to the credits, with continuous musical accompaniment - even the ROTJ SE, since there is no beat of rest in the film and the perfect cadence is never heard.

 

FWIW, I really did consider properly writing "Ewok Celebration." (Or "Ewok Dehydration," as my phone's autocorrect would have it.) But "Yub Nub" is just so much more fun...

[Marian Schedenig 8,177]

31 minutes ago, Datameister said:

(Or "Ewok Dehydration," as my phone's autocorrect would have it.)

 

[QuartalHarmony 542]

5 hours ago, Datameister said:

 

It acts like a perfect cadence if you give it that awkward beat of rest before the credits, as heard on the album

 

I agree entirely - the hamfisted film version, where the final Bb chord is sliced in favour of the Eb chord of the iris-out, is the work of a cloth-eared loon. Instead of what JW (I presume) intended, namely a textbook II-V-I (F-Bb-Eb), it becomes a musically illiterate F-Eb, which is either V-IV or II-I depending on how you want to spell it, which just shows how cack-handed it is.

 

I feel soiled just having to describe it.

 

Mark

[Datameister 2,037]

1 hour ago, QuartalHarmony said:

 

I agree entirely - the hamfisted film version, where the final Bb chord is sliced in favour of the Eb chord of the iris-out, is the work of a cloth-eared loon. Instead of what JW (I presume) intended, namely a textbook II-V-I (F-Bb-Eb), it becomes a musically illiterate F-Eb, which is either V-IV or II-I depending on how you want to spell it, which just shows how cack-handed it is.

 

I feel soiled just having to describe it.

 

Mark

 

But again, the alternative is to have the music awkwardly stop over the final shot, then suddenly resume at the iris out. There's no good editorial option here! Which is odd, because Williams is normally very sensitive to the ways different cues will overlap.

 

Come on, Johnny, time to give that finale a third try...

[Jurassic Shark 12,033]

Revert to Yub Nub!

[QuartalHarmony 542]

I like a challenge, so here are the album and film versions, plus my suggested 'best of both worlds' solution. Only real difference is holding the Bb as a crescendo into the iris-out.

 

 

[Tom Guernsey 2,280]

Interesting the discussions about the ROTJ segue, or rather lack of given that they are in different keys. Given how great JW usually is at connecting musical ideas and material together, there are occasions where it's surprisingly clunky. Given that he would (obviously!) know what key the music he was needing to transition into, it seems odd he'd elect to compose Victory Celebration such that it ends in a different key. I mean, sometimes an unexpected pivot to a different key can be an effective and arresting compositional device (as long as you don't do it too often), but he doesn't even do that. Then again, maybe that's the effect he was going for, but with a gap between the two chords...?! I mean, E flat and B flat aren't a million miles apart tonally but with just enough of a different to give rise to a jolt. I dunno.

 

 

For all the great segues in his music, there are a few oddly clunky ones and this definitely is one of them.

 

[Datameister 2,037]

It's definitely unusual for Williams, yeah. If cue A is going to segue into cue B, he almost always starts cue B with something that's clearly harmonically compatible with the end of cue A. Even if I don't like the way such a passage modulates from one key to another (as with the numerous Force theme endings), the final chord at least still matches up. I really wish I could've been a fly on the wall when Williams was deciding how to end Victory Celebration. (And...you know...whenever he was writing anything else, ever.)

[Jay 37,321]

I think he just followed the temp track and didn't think about much else. 

[Tom Guernsey 2,280]

44 minutes ago, Datameister said:

It's definitely unusual for Williams, yeah. If cue A is going to segue into cue B, he almost always starts cue B with something that's clearly harmonically compatible with the end of cue A. Even if I don't like the way such a passage modulates from one key to another (as with the numerous Force theme endings), the final chord at least still matches up. I really wish I could've been a fly on the wall when Williams was deciding how to end Victory Celebration. (And...you know...whenever he was writing anything else, ever.)

In those instances, it seems odd he didn’t just write the Force theme in a different key…

37 minutes ago, Jay said:

I think he just followed the temp track and didn't think about much else. 

Would be a bit weird to follow it closely to the key signature. What was the temp anyway?

[Jay 37,321]

"500 Nations" by Peter Buffet

 

 

Starting at 0:44:

 

 

[Datameister 2,037]

8 hours ago, Tom Guernsey said:

In those instances, it seems odd he didn’t just write the Force theme in a different key…

 

I've often thought the same thing. Williams is far better-versed than I am in what keys sound good on what instruments, so maybe it has something to do with that. But surely world-class studio musicians could pull off the Force theme in Fm instead of Gm, and then the credits starting in F instead of Eb...right? I'm sure there are complexities I'm not familiar with. But who knows...

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Throne Room is something I never tire of hearing. Star Wars has a better endtitle than all of its followups.

 

I forget to mention Ive heard both in concert so basically I died and went to heaven.