Jerry Goldsmith's CABO BLANCO (1980) - New 2021 La-La Land Records edition coming June 8th

[blondheim 1,157]

7 minutes ago, Yavar Moradi said:

Sibelius is one of my five favorite composers of all time and Vanska is great at conducting his music. I'll check that out!

 

 

I don't know if other conductors have copied him since, but at the time this recording was very unique:

https://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Symphonies-No-Benjamin-Zander/dp/B00001QGKJ

 

I really recommend it because there's also a second disc where he talks about his conducting choices for both symphonies in depth and it's fascinating.

 

Here's a piece Zander wrote a couple years ago about his approach to the 5th:

https://blog.bostonphil.org/maestro-zander-on-beethovens-fifth-symphony

 

Yavar

 

Are you saying Zander was the first to use Beethoven's tempos? Because that would be untrue. Or are you saying there is something else that makes this recording unique?

[Jurassic Shark 12,052]

8 minutes ago, Yavar Moradi said:

Sibelius is one of my five favorite composers of all time

 

I assume the four others include Goldsmith and possibly JW.

[Yavar Moradi 2,593]

8 minutes ago, blondheim said:

 

Are you saying Zander was the first to use Beethoven's tempos? Because that would be untrue. Or are you saying there is something else that makes this recording unique?

 

Maybe it was that he was the first to strictly use Beethoven's metronome markings? I've certainly never heard any other recording do it like he does, and I've heard an insane number of recordings of the work.

 

Yavar

[Jay 37,337]

Some fascinating information from Neil in the FSM thread:

 

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That said, better sound quality is of interest and I'm intrigued by the source cues. LLL's text states ... with additional Goldsmith-recorded period music and classical standards... not making it clear whether the classical standards are conducted by JG. I struggle to believe that the production budget would have funded such an exercise (symphony orchestra?) unless these are arrangements for smaller ensembles; more likely, to me, these are licensed existing recordings. Representing approx. 40% time-wise of the additional material I feel the description could have been clearer.

 

Goldsmith conducted these cues and they were all recorded for the film.

 

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Adding to my query is the fact that neither work (Beethoven and Brahms) is listed on IMDb unlike some of the period music. How was such music featured in the film? I doubt the whole of LvB's Sym 7 Mvt is heard.

 

One is played on a record player in the beginning of the film and the other plays on radio a little later.

 

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The other track which intrigues me is tr.18 Rhumba ... no composer credit is given and yet the sound-clip reveals what I think is a well-known tune. Alternatively, is it a JG original using similar DNA?

 

It's by Goldsmith. Interesting story here. For this project I never had any paperwork. I didn't have a cue sheet or a manuscript to reference. Identifying the other source cues was easy but "Rhumba" wasn't. We sent it out for people to listen to (experts on the music of the era) and nobody knew what it was. This led to me think it was a Goldsmith composition, but if I couldn't prove that, I couldn't include it on the album which would have been heartbreaking. However, even without a single piece of paperwork, I was able to confirm it was by Goldsmith. And while we had to create titles for the film score cues, "Rhumba," is the assigned title.

 

Neil

 

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So Neil -- how DID you solve the mystery of who wrote it, without any paperwork?

 

Yavar

 

 

With grit and determination. Someday I'll write about it in my book.

 

Neil

 

https://filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=144148&forumID=1&archive=0&pageID=2&r=868#bottom

[Yavar Moradi 2,593]

20 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

I assume the four others include Goldsmith and possibly JW.

 

Goldsmith is the only film composer on my top 5 (but he is definitely my favorite composer of all time, at this point). I'll be honest... I love John Williams but he probably wouldn't make my top 20! (If we are talking film composers specifically, he would probably just make the top 10.)

In no particular order: Sibelius, Shostakovich, Saint-Saens, Raff, and Goldsmith. Just missing the cut are Dvorak and Barber, among others.

 

7 minutes ago, Jay said:

Some fascinating information from Neil in the FSM thread:

 

Indeed! He had previously answered my similar question at Jerry Goldsmith Online, but he went into much fuller depth here (though not as much as you or I would want, eh Jay?)

 

Yavar

[Jay 37,337]

I don't understand what the harm would be in sharing how he confirmed it now ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Jurassic Shark 12,052]

He wants us to buy his book, I guess.

[Yavar Moradi 2,593]

10 minutes ago, Jay said:

I don't understand what the harm would be in sharing how he confirmed it now ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

He told me "A magician doesn't reveal his secrets."  

Yavar

[Jay 37,337]

I'm sure he'll share the story in the future some day! 

[blondheim 1,157]

40 minutes ago, Yavar Moradi said:

 

Maybe it was that he was the first to strictly use Beethoven's metronome markings? I've certainly never heard any other recording do it like he does, and I've heard an insane number of recordings of the work.

 

Yavar

 

I think Scherchen may have been the first? I'll need to read up on this more to be certain. Considering how long Beethoven's music has been around and conductors have been fighting about this, I can't imagine it took Benjamin Zander to finally do it

[Jurassic Shark 12,052]

1 hour ago, Jay said:

I'm sure he'll share the story in the future some day! 

 

Yes, he literally said so!

 

57 minutes ago, blondheim said:

 

I think Scherchen may have been the first? I'll need to read up on this more to be certain. Considering how long Beethoven's music has been around and conductors have been fighting about this, I can't imagine it took Benjamin Zander to finally do it

 

Del Mar's critical editions were used by many of the early period performance ensembles, and I believe this is when Beethoven's tempo markings got a greater focus. Roy Goodwin conducting The Hannover Band were the first ones to use these editions, according Jonathan Del Mar's Wikipedia entry and the first page of the interesting article below.

 

Roy Goodman was the first conductor using corrections by Del Mar, followed by Sir Charles Mackerras in 1991, Sir John Eliot Gardiner in 1992, and Claudio Abbado in 1996.^[2] 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Del_Mar

 

https://www.jstor.org/stable/3127639

 

...and here's a fresh article (from last month!) discussing the correctness of the metronome markings and also referencing the above article.

 

https://academic.oup.com/em/advance-article/doi/10.1093/em/caab005/6276767?searchresult=1

[Marian Schedenig 8,191]

1 hour ago, Jay said:

I don't understand what the harm would be in sharing how he confirmed it now ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

Perhaps he didn't, but if he said that, he couldn't include it, so he says he did.  In 20 years it'll be the new alternate Cowboys main title.

[Jay 37,337]

Nah I have 100% faith in Neil S Bulk

[blondheim 1,157]

1 hour ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

Yes, he literally said so!

 

 

Del Mar's critical editions were used by many of the early period performance ensembles, and I believe this is when Beethoven's tempo markings got a greater focus. Roy Goodwin conducting The Hannover Band were the first ones to use these editions, according Jonathan Del Mar's Wikipedia entry and the first page of the interesting article below.

 

Roy Goodman was the first conductor using corrections by Del Mar, followed by Sir Charles Mackerras in 1991, Sir John Eliot Gardiner in 1992, and Claudio Abbado in 1996.^[2] 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Del_Mar

 

https://www.jstor.org/stable/3127639

 

...and here's a fresh article (from last month!) discussing the correctness of the metronome markings and also referencing the above article.

 

https://academic.oup.com/em/advance-article/doi/10.1093/em/caab005/6276767?searchresult=1

 

Definitely a greater focus, but it had to have been done before. I just refuse to believe it

 

I'm digging. Classical information is sometimes so hard to find...

[Jurassic Shark 12,052]

22 minutes ago, blondheim said:

Definitely a greater focus, but it had to have been done before. I just refuse to believe it

 

Swift performances were of course done earlier, such as by Toscanini. But I believe Beethoven's metronome markings weren't taken that seriously before the rise of the period ensembles, because they're so fast.

[Yavar Moradi 2,593]

If either of you ever picks up that Zander Beethoven 5 & 7, I'm extremely curious what you think of it.

 

Yavar

[Marian Schedenig 8,191]

16 minutes ago, Jay said:

Nah I have 100% faith in Neil S Bulk

 

I do, too, but I can't let that get in the way of a lame joke.

[Jurassic Shark 12,052]

34 minutes ago, Yavar Moradi said:

If either of you ever picks up that Zander Beethoven 5 & 7, I'm extremely curious what you think of it.

 

Yavar

 

No need to pick it up!

 

 

34 minutes ago, Yavar Moradi said:

If either of you ever picks up that Zander Beethoven 5 & 7, I'm extremely curious what you think of it.

 

Yavar

 

I've now listened to the first movement of both symphonies. I'm sorry to say none of them clicked with me. The 5th didn't give me the ecstatic feeling towards the end which is a must to call it a favourite. The 7th was waay to slow, and often loses the momentum. This can't be in accordance with Beethoven's metronome markings.

[Yavar Moradi 2,593]

1 hour ago, Jurassic Shark said:

No need to pick it up!

 

There was still a need to pick it up because the second disc is his discussion of Beethoven's metronome markings and his approach as conductor, putting it in context of other performances.

 

Yavar

[Jurassic Shark 12,052]

5 minutes ago, Yavar Moradi said:

 

There was still a need to pick it up because the second disc is his discussion of Beethoven's metronome markings and his approach as conductor, putting it in context of other performances.

 

Yavar

 

Are you referring to the discussion included in this album?

 

 

[Yavar Moradi 2,593]

9 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

Are you referring to the discussion included in this album?

 

 

 

Nope, he did one on a second disc for Symphonies 5 & 7.

 

Yavar

[Brundlefly 2,385]

Oh my god, these samples indicate an awesome score that might be categorized between Papillon and Under Fire.

[Yavar Moradi 2,593]

5 hours ago, Brundlefly said:

Oh my god, these samples indicate an awesome score that might be categorized between Papillon and Under Fire.

Not a bad description as it has elements in common with both and fell between them time wise. I don’t think it’s quite on the level of either and I wouldn’t call it “awesome” overall... but it is really, really good still.

 

Yavar

[publicist 4,643]

It's more like connecting pieces of either and some heavier action cues fitting the period of Star Trek and Great Train Robbery (and certainly more Breakout than Under Fire)...in between a lot of negligible orchestral variations of old songs. Let's say it's wonderful for what Goldsmith got to work with, but it's really a shame he did this and Inchon instead of many infinitely better movies from that era (he sure didn't deserve these two).

[Brundlefly 2,385]

I'm really interested in the tons of source music, I mean, it's even more than the actual score. The sound quality is pretty great, by the way.

 

If they're gonna reissue Breakout as well, they could just as well have made a Jerry Goldsmith Charles Bronson collection right away, including Shamus, Breakout, Breakheart Pass and Caboblanco.

[publicist 4,643]

Shamus isn't Bronson. He can only dream of Reynold's impressive chest hair.

[Brundlefly 2,385]

Oh shit, you're right. My fault.

[Jay 37,337]

Anybody listened to this new album yet?

[Jurassic Shark 12,052]

I've got a feeling @Yavar Moradi has.

[Yavar Moradi 2,593]

28 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

I've got a feeling @Yavar Moradi has.

 

I have not! I've been swamped lately and I think I'm going to have to delegate the Soundtrack Spotlight to David (and maybe Clark) this time. I'll be lucky to find the time to record on Shamus!

 

Yavar

[Jurassic Shark 12,052]

16 minutes ago, Yavar Moradi said:

 

I have not! I've been swamped lately and I think I'm going to have to delegate the Soundtrack Spotlight to David (and maybe Clark) this time. I'll be lucky to find the time to record on Shamus!

 

Yavar

 

Btw, which one do you recommend of the most recent release of the original score to Rio Conchos, and the rerecording?

[Yavar Moradi 2,593]

2 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

Btw, which one do you recommend of the most recent release of the original score to Rio Conchos, and the rerecording?

 

This is a case where I highly recommend them both. As I say in the Soundtrack Spotlight podcast, I probably listen to the original Rio Conchos recording more often now, because Mike Mattesino's restoration for Kritzerland (same master later reissued by La-La Land) made it sound really good, and I want every note of the score because IMO it flows much better in complete form.

 

The LSO re-recording on Intrada was my introduction to the score though, and if you just need modern sound quality it's an easy recommendation. Also, I think that in several highlights such as "Wall of Fire", the LSO gives just such an incredible performance that the older film recording just can't compete.

 

When it comes to the companion score on the disc, The Artist Who Did Not Want to Paint, I definitely prefer the LSO recording over the original recording... though I still like the original recording and wouldn't be without it!

 

Yavar

[Jurassic Shark 12,052]

4 minutes ago, Yavar Moradi said:

This is a case where I highly recommend them both.

 

I knew you were going to say that!

 

I see the remastered CD release of the rerecording can be ordered from Intrada until 5 July. Do you know if it's available from another store? Ordering from Intrada is super expensive to me due to the shipping fee and extortionate import tax (which I've read that Intrada doesn't help you avoid).

[Jay 37,337]

Every Intrada release is sold on the other places too, yea

[Ollie 1,059]

1 hour ago, Jay said:

Anybody listened to this new album yet?

 

No, I packaged mine with Always. 

[Jurassic Shark 12,052]

7 minutes ago, Jay said:

Every Intrada release is sold on the other places too, yea

 

I know. What I meant is it's sold out at Music box records, and I'm not convinced I'll get it before it goes OOP if I order from Chris' soundtrack corner.

[Yavar Moradi 2,593]

8 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

I knew you were going to say that!

 

Haha. I mean, they're both great. If you care most about modern sound, I'd say go for the Intrada for sure, even though the original 60s recording is complete and has the Mike Mattesino touch.

 

If you ask me which recording of The Blue Max I recommend, I personally would say go for the original even though it doesn't sound as good as the Tadlow. When it comes to say Exodus by Ernest Gold, I'd say go for the Tadlow for sure, because it's MORE complete rather than less, is perfectly performed, and sounds a HELL of a lot better than the original album.

 

 

11 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

I see the remastered CD release of the rerecording can be ordered from Intrada until 5 July. Do you know if it's available from another store? Ordering from Intrada is super expensive to me due to the shipping fee and extortionate import tax (which I've read that Intrada doesn't help you avoid).

 

Screen Archives (I think they help you avoid?):

https://www1.screenarchives.com/title_detail.cfm/ID/42677/RIO-CONCHOS-THE-ARTIST-WHO-DID-NOT-WANT-TO-PAINT-REMASTERED-RE-RECORDING/

 

And if you're in continental Europe, maybe Music Box would be best?

https://www.musicbox-records.com/en/cd-soundtracks/10210-rio-conchos-the-artist-who-did-not-want-to-paint-remastered-re-recording.html?search_query=rio+conchos&results=27

 

But you should check at whatever your regular supplier is.

 

Yavar

 

 

[Jurassic Shark 12,052]

9 minutes ago, Yavar Moradi said:

Haha. I mean, they're both great. If you care most about modern sound, I'd say go for the Intrada for sure, even though the original 60s recording is complete and has the Mike Mattesino touch.

 

I don't mind old recordings if they sound decent for their age.

 

10 minutes ago, Yavar Moradi said:

When it comes to say Exodus by Ernest Gold, I'd say go for the Tadlow for sure, because it's MORE complete rather than less, is perfectly performed, and sounds a HELL of a lot better than the original album.

 

Had the original album, but sold it because much of the music was much less catchy than the main theme. I guess it's time to give the expanded rerecording another try.

 

[Yavar Moradi 2,593]

1 minute ago, Jurassic Shark said:

I don't mind old recordings if they sound decent for their age.

 

Then later get the LLL twofer paired with 100 Rifles (also an awesome score you need in your collection) as soon as they have another sale, but first get the Intrada LSO re-recording twofer with The Artist Who Did Not Want to Paint, because that won't be available soon and it's the best re-recording Jerry Goldsmith ever did of his own work.

 

Yavar

[Jurassic Shark 12,052]

12 minutes ago, Yavar Moradi said:

Screen Archives (I think they help you avoid?):

 

I forgot to check there. When I asked them for a previous order they didn't help me avoid taxes, but the content value was written with such a small font that the first digit, eight, looked like a zero.

 

14 minutes ago, Yavar Moradi said:

And if you're in continental Europe, maybe Music Box would be best?

https://www.musicbox-records.com/en/cd-soundtracks/10210-rio-conchos-the-artist-who-did-not-want-to-paint-remastered-re-recording.html?search_query=rio+conchos&results=27

 

16 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

I know. What I meant is it's sold out at Music box records, and I'm not convinced I'll get it before it goes OOP if I order from Chris' soundtrack corner.

15 minutes ago, Yavar Moradi said:

But you should check at whatever your regular supplier is.

 

There's no such thing - I buy directly from the labels or specialty stores when the former is not feasible.

9 minutes ago, Yavar Moradi said:

it's the best re-recording Jerry Goldsmith ever did of his own work.

 

You also consider Rio his best western score, right?

[Marian Schedenig 8,191]

51 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

I know. What I meant is it's sold out at Music box records, and I'm not convinced I'll get it before it goes OOP if I order from Chris' soundtrack corner.

 

I always assume that if it says "Temporarily out of stock. Order now and we'll deliver when available", they're sure to get another batch before it sells out (unless hardly any copies are left but they cancel it prematurely because they don't see the point in pressing more).

[Jay 37,337]

If the physical item isn't important to you, it's also available for sale as a lossless download

 

https://www.qobuz.com/us-en/label/intrada-2/download-streaming-albums/143772

[Jurassic Shark 12,052]

11 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

 

I always assume that if it says "Temporarily out of stock. Order now and we'll deliver when available", they're sure to get another batch before it sells out (unless hardly any copies are left but they cancel it prematurely because they don't see the point in pressing more).

 

Yeah, but this is a special case of a very limited release.

 

9 minutes ago, Jay said:

If the physical item isn't important to you, it's also available for sale as a lossless download

 

https://www.qobuz.com/us-en/label/intrada-2/download-streaming-albums/143772

 

Icky!

[Yavar Moradi 2,593]

11 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

You also consider Rio his best western score, right?

Declaring a “best” is difficult. It’s an excellent score though, five stars from me. If you’re asking whether it’s my favorite Goldsmith western score... no. My favorite is Lonely Are the Brave (and before that it was 100 Rifles, with Rio Conchos maybe in 2nd place at that time until the more subtle Lonely grew on me). Doug Fake originally wanted to re-record Lonely Are the Brave with Jerry but as he describes in the podcast episode on this release, it became evident they couldn’t find the written scores and would have to pay for an expensive reconstruction, so they shifted gears to Rio Conchos.

 

If a new recording of Lonely Are the Brave had happened, still paired with Artist... this album would have contained my two favorite works by Goldsmith! The Artist Who Did Not Want to Paint is my #1 favorite Goldsmith work as I mention in the podcast, and this is my favorite recording of it. But what I didn’t mention in this podcast (but have mentioned in several others, and on the forums for years) is the Lonely Are the Brave is my #1 favorite Goldsmith feature film score. Kinda bummed a rerecording of it didn’t happen, even though I do think the film recording sounds pretty good for the early 60s.

 

Yavar